Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Astralock]

Just now, Neiska said:

 

First, its the ITF I am mainly referring to yes.

 

But Trust you? No, I don't think I shall, thank you. Particularly with things like this - 

 

Pretty much all of the big names in the MM sub-community are saying the same things as I am here.

 

 

Just because they're big names doesn't make them correct.  I'm telling you that while Masterminds do indeed get wrecked on hard mode ITFs, they're just fine on hard mode ASFs.  It's mostly some players being stupid and prejudicial that makes them think otherwise.  But hey, if you want to believe something that is flat out incorrect, be my guest.

[EmperorSteele]

39 minutes ago, Shadeknight said:

Want to do it with all PBs? Sure, go right ahead. You'll just hit a brick wall on 3/4 stars or take forever.

 

I feel like an all-PB team would have a slightly easier time of it all compared to a lot of other "all one AT" runs, because the Fluffy Cupcakes can't target other Nictus for possession. Having to stop and save a teammate or two from instadeath is one thing that slows a lot of runs down, if just by a little.

[MoonSheep]

6 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Just because they're big names doesn't make them correct.  I'm telling you that while Masterminds do indeed get wrecked on hard mode ITFs, they're just fine on hard mode ASFs.  It's mostly some players being stupid and prejudicial that makes them think otherwise.  But hey, if you want to believe something that is flat out incorrect, be my guest.

 

i wouldn’t let an MM into the team even for a +0 regular ITF yet alone a hard mode run haha.. i just about tolerate sentinels 😛

[Bionic_Flea]

3 hours ago, Neiska said:

In line with #2, the PVP crowd I don't think have even gotten so much as a glance by any development. I am not a pvper myself, but i can sympathize with those that enjoy that play.

Wut?

 

PvPers have gotten more direct access and attention from the Devs in the last year or two than they got in the entire run before now.

 

I have also run HM ITF with MMs, Sentinels, Stalkers, and everything else.  Mind you, the team also had a tank and buffs/debuffs but I believe there is room for everyone to contribute. 

 

I remember when the Recluse SF first came out folks said it could not be beat, then everyone said the only way to beat it was a Stone Brute and seven Corrupters.  Then word went out that one or two "pity spots" could be given to MMs, or Stalkers, or non-mind Dominators.  Eventually, people were running them with anything and everything.  This will happen eventually with the ASF and ITF as well.

 

Neiska, I don't know if you play on Excelsior, but if you do or want to transfer there, you are welcome on my team.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Bionic_Flea

[Neiska]

5 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

Wut?

 

PvPers have gotten more direct access and attention from the Devs in the last year or two than they got in the entire run before now.

 

I have also run HM ITF with MMs, Sentinels, Stalkers, and everything else.  Mind you, the team also had a tank and buffs/debuffs but I believe there is room for everyone to contribute. 

 

I remember when the Recluse SF first came out folks said it could not be beat, then everyone said the only way to beat it was a Stone Brute and seven Corrupters.  Then word went out that one or two "pity spots" could be given to MMs, or Stalkers, or non-mind Dominators.  Eventually, people were running them with anything and everything.  This will happen eventually with the ASF and ITF as well.

 

Neiska, I don't know if you play on Excelsior, but if you do or want to transfer there, you are welcome on my team.

 

Thank you Flea. But I did state I am no PVPer, at most I cheer for my friends on the sidelines. I don't know what full attention they have or have not seen development wise, I only hear the gripes from those that are passionate about pvp. And since most of them seem to despise the forums (their words, not mine) I felt the need to at least make mention of it. Honestly if it was up to me I would organize it into seasons or something and keep track of wins/losses and so on. But pvp is not my realm of play.

[seebs]

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

 

I don't think this is true.

The market is seeded and the market transforms any level of crafted enhancement to an attuned enhancement. Both of these add influence to the market by adding product and upgrading product.

Neither of those creates influence. The market being seeded removes more influence from the market, because inf used to buy seeded things is destroyed completely, rather than 95% of it going to another player. Transforming things doesn't add influence.

There is an amount of influence in the game, which is the sum of all the influence held by all the players, global emails, and so on.

Any market transaction reduces that amount of influence. Always. Transforming enhancements doesn't change the amount of influence players have.

[Neiska]

21 minutes ago, Astralock said:

Just because they're big names doesn't make them correct.  I'm telling you that while Masterminds do indeed get wrecked on hard mode ITFs, they're just fine on hard mode ASFs.  It's mostly some players being stupid and prejudicial that makes them think otherwise.  But hey, if you want to believe something that is flat out incorrect, be my guest.

 

You know, we both agreed on the ITF thing, until you had to add that snip at the end. But here, let me clue you in on the actual situation and conversations going on other non ITF content, as far as MMs are concerned.

 

In short, it widens the gap between pet sets. What is good, and what is bad. It varies by primary.

 

Beasts - for beasts, its a problem that they lack ranged attacks and chase down mobs, which in turn, aggros more mobs. Their lack of a constant attack cycle only expands this as they tend to pause a moment giving mobs more time to flee. Attempts at hold/immobilize are partially successful, but often a Boss or EB will make it to the next spawn and bring back their friends, in which case the Beast MM gets clobbered.

 

Mercs - lol. Not even going to expand here.

 

Undead - Simply put the undead lack enough CC oomph for harder content. Due to Mag mechanics as well as target caps, which are often exceeded by aggro caps. (meaning you are fighting more than you can CC.) Again, tactics and engagement can play a role here, but its easy to make a mistake and get overwhelmed and experience cascading failure in CC and defenses.

 

Robots/Thugs/Demons - Seem to be able to handle the hardest non-ITF content well enough, using a variety of methods according to chosen primary.

 

Ninjas - something of a mixed bag, depending. Some report its rough but doable, others say its been rough indeed. But this is one of the "glass cannon" pet sets, so that shouldn't surprise anyone.

 

Now then, considering that we have far more experience than you do when it come's to masterminds, particularly when its all of us together, it is extremely likely that we know what we are talking about, as we actually you know, go and play the content we are speaking on. And in case reading isn't your strong point, I will highlight the topic of the thread I referenced - "ITF Hardmode"

 

I think perhaps in your eagerness, you knee-jerked a reaction post. No one is stating that MMs can't do +4 content. Its ITFs and 3-4 star content, had you actually read the conversation I linked to you. I mean, I power farm with masterminds on +4 difficulty. I even posted a video and a guide. I have over 30 level 50 MMs, so I think I have a pretty good grasp about them.

 

But hey, if you want to defend a point that no one suggested, then that's on you.

[Neiska]

27 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

 

i wouldn’t let an MM into the team even for a +0 regular ITF yet alone a hard mode run haha.. i just about tolerate sentinels 😛

 

Case in point.

[Bionic_Flea]

19 minutes ago, Neiska said:

 

Case in point.

Fleas are nicer than sheep.

 

It is known.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 hours ago, Number Six said:

 

The market doesn't generate any influence. At all.

 

It destroys influence because transaction fees delete inf from the system.

 

You can personally gain influence from playing the market, but that influence always comes from other players and is not new inf entering the system. If everyone got all their inf from marketeering and never played the rest of the game, there would be no influence at all.

 

A single player server is a good experiment (thought experiment or otherwise) that can be very revealing.

 

Surely, at this point you have realized that inflation isn't the problem? 

 

The traditional argument against farming is that it adds too much currency to the system, which causes inflation, which penalizes new players at the sake of old players.

 

The problem you have is that the rate of new "stuff" coming into the system, that can be immediately resold or repackaged into something attractive, is growing at a rate faster than the increase in monetary base.

 

That's fine, except then you lose the people changing one into the other because why in the world do they need another billion inf?  And others who bitch about how pricy things are say in the same breath I don't *WANT* to have to *EARN* inf or grind anything for the things I want.  So you get really wide bid offer spreads.

 

My suggestion would be to:  Cut the merit to converter rate from 1:3 to 10:1.  Just like live.  Give people some real incentive to give back to the market.  If a player wants something and it's too expensive?  Do without it or craft a plan to get it.

[PeregrineFalcon]

1 hour ago, MoonSheep said:

i wouldn’t let an MM into the team even for a +0 regular ITF yet alone a hard mode run haha.. i just about tolerate sentinels 😛

Back on the retail servers I used to tank the ITF on my Bot/FF MM. I even took taunt from the Presence Pool.

 

I don't know about hard mode, but there's no reason not to allow an MM on a regular ITF.

[Erratic1]

8 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

My suggestion would be to:  Cut the merit to converter rate from 1:3 to 10:1.  Just like live.  Give people some real incentive to give back to the market.  If a player wants something and it's too expensive?  Do without it or craft a plan to get it.

 

Or quit the game in frustration.

[Yomo Kimyata]

1 minute ago, Erratic1 said:

 

Or quit the game in frustration.

 

Well, that is between the player and the game.  I'm sure you have many things in real life you want but cannot afford.  I know I do.  I seriously hope you aren't thinking of quitting that game.

[America's Angel]

18 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

The problem you have is that the rate of new "stuff" coming into the system, that can be immediately resold or repackaged into something attractive, is growing at a rate faster than the increase in monetary base.

This is what's keeping prices low.

 

That's a good thing.

[Yomo Kimyata]

21 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

4 minutes ago, America's Angel said:

This is what's keeping prices low.

 

That's a good thing.

 

That's fine, except then you lose the people changing one into the other because why in the world do they need another billion inf?  And others who bitch about how pricy things are say in the same breath I don't *WANT* to have to *EARN* inf or grind anything for the things I want.  So you get really wide bid offer spreads.

 

 

[MoonSheep]

39 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I let anyone on my team, because when I run, I am fully prepared to carry the team myself. Anything more is just gravy.

 

haha, keep your expectations low and anything positive is a bonus

[Ironblade]

15 hours ago, ivanhedgehog said:

There is a lone contaminated that spawns in the RV tram station every few days. The original devs put him there when people complained about not being able to get the badge from the starter zone because they didnt know about it. You cant say you cant get the badge! but they knew perfectly well that it wasnt a practical way of getting the badge. They were being jerks. just like the 2% drop rate.

Yes, that lone Contaminated was pretty much a slap in the face.  So people complained long and loud, and now anyone can get the badge easily via Ouroboros.

 

I think they started with that low 2% rate because starting higher and later lowering it would lead to all kinds of screaming for a long time.  But starting low and raising it later just has people screaming for a short time.  So, my guess is that it will get increased, or other ways of earning Aether will be added.

[Erratic1]

17 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

Well, that is between the player and the game.  I'm sure you have many things in real life you want but cannot afford.  I know I do.  I seriously hope you aren't thinking of quitting that game.

 

I am not sure why I would want to emulate that aspect of real life in a game. I am not saying things should be trivial to achieve but likewise, I play a game for fun, not to toil away at like a job. Why am I not playing Lost Ark? It became too much like a job.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

Well, that is between the player and the game.  I'm sure you have many things in real life you want but cannot afford.  I know I do.  I seriously hope you aren't thinking of quitting that game.

 

Lol right so is the game supposed to be an escape from the rat race, or a replication of it? I don't feel entitled to everything the game has to offer. I also don't mind putting in an effort to get things that I really want. But there comes a point where the tedium of grinding resources, converting them or selling them on a market in order to get something else--ultimately to get some trinket--kind of breaks the spell. Why am I wasting so much real time in order to do this? In a game I bought to make superheroes.

[America's Angel]

13 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

That's fine, except then you lose the people changing one into the other because why in the world do they need another billion inf?

Having a high turnover of people playing converter roulette is good for the economy. Means it remains a viable means for new players looking to make their first billion.

 

It keeps prices low, and helps new players make money. Win/win!

[roleki]

39 minutes ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

That's fine, except then you lose the people changing one into the other because why in the world do they need another billion inf?

 

That does make me wonder how this game would survive at all if the billionaires all decided they'd had enough and the rest of us had to craft our own shit.  What a nightmare scenario THAT would be.

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, Erratic1 said:

 

I am not sure why I would want to emulate that aspect of real life in a game. I am not saying things should be trivial to achieve but likewise, I play a game for fun, not to toil away at like a job. Why am I not playing Lost Ark? It became too much like a job.

 

2 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

 

Lol right so is the game supposed to be an escape from the rat race, or a replication of it? I don't feel entitled to everything the game has to offer. I also don't mind putting in an effort to get things that I really want. But there comes a point where the tedium of grinding resources, converting them or selling them on a market in order to get something else--ultimately to get some trinket--kind of breaks the spell. Why am I wasting so much real time in order to do this? In a game I bought to make superheroes.

 

It sounds like both of you might want to find a new game?  You both argue that you don't want things to be trivial nor that you are entitled to everything.  But it is actually trivial to make items trivial to achieve and you can get everything with almost no effort in this game.  That's my opinion, and yours certainly may differ.  Maybe I'm playing by a different set of rules?

 

 

[Ironblade]

5 hours ago, Neiska said:

I actually got told by a group putting together a team that they would take anything else than a Mastermind, even though my mastermind is full T4, built to support (electric affinity), has 400 vet levels, and is purpled to the gills. I would ask that by what context is that balance, or "play your way", or encouraging/discouraging certain groups of people?

To be fair, any time you join a team that someone else forms, you're playing THEIR way (or they don't invite you, or kick you, or whatever).

[Neiska]

1 minute ago, Ironblade said:

To be fair, any time you join a team that someone else forms, you're playing THEIR way (or they don't invite you, or kick you, or whatever).

 

That is a fair point. I am only pointing out that the mechanics as the stand, really discourage some ATs over others which sort of goes against the entire rebalancing, class comparison, and so on. But you are right, people could kick you for not liking your costume if they wanted to. I am not saying that it is right or wrong, only that they can. Pretty much the only way to guaranteed to have a team to your liking is to lead one yourself.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

 

It sounds like both of you might want to find a new game?  You both argue that you don't want things to be trivial nor that you are entitled to everything.  But it is actually trivial to make items trivial to achieve and you can get everything with almost no effort in this game.  That's my opinion, and yours certainly may differ.  Maybe I'm playing by a different set of rules?

 

 

But see, honestly, that's complete bullshit. I recognize that you can get rich with very little difficulty in this game. But it takes effort. Not strenuous "I'm digging a ditch" effort. Tedious, time wasting effort. Sorting items. Converting things. The types of activities that are the worst aspects imo of the user interface. Exactly the sort of crap that I play a game to avoid doing. 

 

So find a new game? Sure. But maybe instead of just writing off players like me, maybe the community and the developers should realize that some people have strayed from what this game was actually about and have bought into this "inf tycoon" market mentality.

Edited September 6, 2022 by battlewraith