Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Glacier Peak]

19 minutes ago, Trike said:

True as far as it goes, but they really seem to gravitate to PvP.

 

In Halo Infinite you can’t shoot your teammates, but you can kill them with vehicles. Every few matches I see someone who starts griefing their own team by running them over with a vehicle or pushing them off a cliff resulting in a -100 “self destruction” penalty. No idea what’s going on in these people’s heads, if it’s because they’re children or just losers who simply can’t compete. I’ve never encountered a community as toxic as the one in League of Legends; it’s unbelievably racist, sexist, and just plain mean. It’s so awful that I don’t know why anyone plays that game.

 

Compare that to any co-op game or PvE game, where by and large people are friendly and nice. Earlier today I was watching exchanges on Excelsior as people helped out a couple new players. You never get that in League of Legends.

 

I’ve been playing video games since 1974 and online since the 90s; PvP is almost universally brimming with bad apples.

Bless you for sticking with Halo Infinite! I snagged Onyx in ranked and then switched to the social playlists. The MMR system is awful, and you tend to get stuck in the same rank tier unless you search with a fireteam of buddies. I did solo que up to Onyx on Controller and then ranks reset and I'm stuck in Platinum because I get Golds on my team and Diamonds on the opposite team lol

 

But I digress! PvP isn't terrible in my experience, but I can understand folks who have had bad experiences. I'll say that Homecoming PvP has its mix of incredibly helpful players and also some real window lickers. I think that's a pretty accurate representation of human beings in general though. 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Trike said:

I’ve been playing video games since 1974 and online since the 90s; PvP is almost universally brimming with bad apples.

 

Or it's you and your confirmation bias. Generally when people hop into a topic on the forums, and diverge off of a relatively innocuous comment about dev mistakes to start badmouthing a type of player--they have some emotional axe to grind. 

[Trike]

Just now, battlewraith said:

 

Or it's you and your confirmation bias. Generally when people hop into a topic on the forums, and diverge off of a relatively innocuous comment about dev mistakes to start badmouthing a type of player--they have some emotional axe to grind. 

Yet here you are, pro-PvP and insulting me several times, while I’ve kept my commentary on topic. Rather proves the point.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Trike said:

Yet here you are, pro-PvP and insulting me several times, while I’ve kept my commentary on topic. Rather proves the point.

The topic is issues related to this game and it's past and future development. Not the League of Legends community sucking or pvp brimming with bad apples in general.

You gave a really skewed account of pvp in this game which I described as ignorant--because it was, You clearly didn't spend much time pvping.

I suggested you have confirmation bias--that seems reasonable given that you claimed to have warned the devs about adding pvp in the first place.

 

If my purpose was to insult you it would be obvious. I try to handle people like you as gently as possible, since anything that rankles you is assumed to "prove your point."

[ivanhedgehog]

50 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Bless you for sticking with Halo Infinite! I snagged Onyx in ranked and then switched to the social playlists. The MMR system is awful, and you tend to get stuck in the same rank tier unless you search with a fireteam of buddies. I did solo que up to Onyx on Controller and then ranks reset and I'm stuck in Platinum because I get Golds on my team and Diamonds on the opposite team lol

 

But I digress! PvP isn't terrible in my experience, but I can understand folks who have had bad experiences. I'll say that Homecoming PvP has its mix of incredibly helpful players and also some real window lickers. I think that's a pretty accurate representation of human beings in general though. 

I played wow pvp for quite a while. I stopped playing it because I found myself acting toxic to the people around me in rl. I will not be that guy.

[ForeverLaxx]

23 hours ago, Trike said:

True as far as it goes, but they really seem to gravitate to PvP.

Not in my experience and I'm an avid PvPer in most every game that allows it, including CoH when it was still the Live server (I haven't bothered with it since coming back). Most of the elitist people I've seen have been PvE raiders and people who afk at the beginning of a mission/quest/dungeon and bark orders at everyone telling them to hurry up because they don't have time to wait around despite them doing literally nothing else but leeching. One of the reasons I liked CoH so much was because PvE Elitism is a much smaller problem, though it does still exist if you stick around long enough on the fringes and pay attention.

 

I've been ran off maps, slain by my "allies" in a PvE dungeon simply because the game allows it and it's "funny," intentionally griefed by players who refuse to revive or refuse to move forward which forces you to quit and restart, players who suicide when something doesn't go their way, players who body-block you intentionally, players who stand in front of you constantly so you can't use rockets without blowing yourself up, watched loot be handed to the guy who did nothing but gets everything because he's the guild lead's best friend (or "girlfriend"), denied access to content I've solo'd tons of times because I didn't have gear from the latest raid, etc etc.

 

In PvP all I see is standard trash talk. I almost never get hate mail, which is weird considering how long I've been swimming in the so-called "cesspool." Obviously, there are obnoxious children and manchildren that exist in the PvP sphere (just pull up a random Xbox Chat video), but I think you just remember those moments more because you want to remember them more, not because they actually happen more. And who knows, maybe you're part of a PvE Inner Circle and don't even realize it which is why you don't notice (or downplay) the constant exclusion and abuse directed to those outside of it.

 

PvP seems it will forever be the eternal boogeyman for some reason.

 

EDIT: Oh boy, a "thumbs down" for... explaining that PvE is also home to rude people and my personal experience regarding that? Some of you forum folks are strange.

Edited September 10, 2022 by ForeverLaxx

[Trike]

1 hour ago, battlewraith said:

The topic is issues related to this game and it's past and future development. Not the League of Legends community sucking or pvp brimming with bad apples in general.

You gave a really skewed account of pvp in this game which I described as ignorant--because it was, You clearly didn't spend much time pvping.

I suggested you have confirmation bias--that seems reasonable given that you claimed to have warned the devs about adding pvp in the first place.

 

If my purpose was to insult you it would be obvious. I try to handle people like you as gently as possible, since anything that rankles you is assumed to "prove your point."

Dude, you literally called me ignorant. I know it when I see it. 
 

You made the assertion that IOs were the worst thing added to the game, and I countered that PvP is. Don’t know why you’re acting defensive about that. I already said I’m not anti-PvP, I’m just against it where it doesn’t belong. If it worked here then everyone would be playing it. I don’t see anyone doing it. If they are, it’s a tiny fraction, just as it’s always been. Ergo a total waste of time to add to the game.

[seebs]

On 9/6/2022 at 10:27 PM, UltraAlt said:

What is the difference between "moved to the market" and "added to the market" exactly?

The market isn't magic. The *game* is what has an amount of influence in it. If people are spending influence in the market on Thing A, that means they don't have that influence to spend anymore on Thing B. All use of the market reduces the amount of inf in the game, every time. Things like seeding stuff *reduce* the amount of money available to buy things, and thus *reduce* market prices.

[MoonSheep]

5 hours ago, Trike said:

Dude, you literally called me ignorant. I know it when I see it. 
 

You made the assertion that IOs were the worst thing added to the game, and I countered that PvP is. Don’t know why you’re acting defensive about that. I already said I’m not anti-PvP, I’m just against it where it doesn’t belong. If it worked here then everyone would be playing it. I don’t see anyone doing it. If they are, it’s a tiny fraction, just as it’s always been. Ergo a total waste of time to add to the game.

 

i think that was me that made the assertion about IOs mate, not @battlewraith

 

i disagree with the guy on some stuff but he’s alright, just a player with a different view 👍

Edited September 9, 2022 by MoonSheep

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 hours ago, Trike said:

Don’t know why you’re acting defensive about that. I already said I’m not anti-PvP, I’m just against it where it doesn’t belong.

The PvPers on the Homecoming forums are still fighting the war in their minds with the Paragon developers. So they come on here and valiantly defend PvP and attack anyone who doesn't like CoH PvP all the while saying "PvPers aren't insulting, it's the PvEers who are like that." "Oh, they're not horribly insulting, it's just standard trash talk."

 

Yeah, it's that "standard trash talk" as ForeverLaxx put it that people don't want to put up with.

 

I too have been playing video games since the 70's. I still have the same email address that I had in 1996. I literally have saved emails that are older than my children, both of whom can drive and vote now. So I've been on the internet since before 99% of the planet. Every online game I've seen without PvP people are nice and go out of their way to help each other. Games with PvP, well LoL everyone. That's "standard trash talk."

 

Am I the only person that remembers the forum threads right before the PvP changes went live with Issue 13? The PvPers made a thread appealing to the PvE player base asking them to join the fight to stop the devs from changing PvP. That thread will filled full of PvEers refusing to help and specifically citing the abuse and insults that they've endured from PvPers over the years. And this wasn't just a couple of forum posters, it was hundreds.

 

So understand that anyone who says that PvPers aren't insulting and abusive is trying to gaslight you. They're saying that 90% of the playerbase is just imagining abuse and insults. That we're ALL wrong. That we're just misremembering or that we're crazy. Yeah, whatever. Go try that gaslighting stuff on someone else.

[battlewraith]

9 hours ago, Trike said:

Dude, you literally called me ignorant. I know it when I see it.

 

Read what I actually said. I said your assessment or account of pvp was ignorant. I was clear from the get go that it wasn't meant as a slur. Moreover, the fact that you don't see a lot of people doing something now, doesn't mean that something was a bad idea or shouldn't have been added to the game. 

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Astralock said:

I've seen some pretty toxic behavior in PvE over the years, no PvP required.

 

They vile behavior that I experience in CoH PvP was far worse than anything I experience playing CoH PvE.

That being said, I'm not an end-gamer trying to be uber or L337. I have the feeling that the end-gamer community had more potential abusive behavior and rage-quits.

 

12 hours ago, Astralock said:

It isn't PvEers.  It isn't PvPers.  It's human beings.

 

The PvPers are humans. And in my experience, PvPr's tend to show more bad sportsmanship than PvE Players because of their aggressive attitude is directed at other players.

That is the root of PvE - being aggressive toward other players.

PvP aims most of its aggression on the enemies that are not players; players get upset about not getting enough support, other players not doing enough damage, or a players not understanding the content on one level or another.

 

12 hours ago, Astralock said:

rotten apples

 

Drive people away and give a stink to a thing that can stop people from meeting the gems.

Most likely the Gems would be players that would be found on your side of a PvP battle and not on the opposing side.

 

I never had PvP players on my side in a PvP battle experience vile behavior toward me. In CoH, the vile behavior always came from the opposing side; I never experienced any real positive from someone opposing me in PvP.

 

12 hours ago, Trike said:

In Halo Infinite you can’t shoot your teammates, but you can kill them with vehicles. Every few matches I see someone who starts griefing their own team by running them over with a vehicle or pushing them off a cliff resulting in a -100 “self destruction” penalty. No idea what’s going on in these people’s heads,

 

If there is some kind of reward for winning, there are always going to be those that find ways to cheat to help their side win.

This activity that you are indicating could simply just be general trolling/griefing, but, the bigger the reward for the winning team, the bigger the chance that the  team that wants to win the most will send a spy or 2 to play on the other team in order to make the other side lose.

 

I've experienced it myself in FPS games.

 

11 hours ago, Trike said:

Yet here you are, pro-PvP and insulting me several times, while I’ve kept my commentary on topic. Rather proves the point.

 

Put him on ignore and move on.

 

7 hours ago, seebs said:

The market isn't magic.

 

I never said it was.

You can't understand what I'm saying. That is clear.

Do the players create the influence used in the market? Yes.

But that isn't the same as the value market of items on the market. Adding items on the market and converting items changes the value of items by creating more goods for manipulation than the players contribute to it.

I understand that you can't understand that.

I will continue making greater profits because you don't understand, so just let it go.

 

 

[Neiska]

10 minutes ago, UltraAlt said:

The PvPers are humans. And in my experience, PvPr's tend to show more bad sportsmanship than PvE Players because of their aggressive attitude is directed at other players.

That is the root of PvE - being aggressive toward other players.

 

First off, I am not a PVPr myself, but do support those who favor that gameplay. Not all of PVPr's are like that, in fact most are not. You are taking the extreme example and using that as a standard of what is average. Personally I have seen far worse here on the forums than any actions in-game by PVPr's. So by your standards, the point could be argued that we forum users are worse than either group. I would consider your attitude toward farmers, power levels, and other forms of gameplay you don't personably like as pretty aggressive.

 

Context is important.

[Ukase]

11 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

In PvP all I see is standard trash talk.

This is all just a rant, and seems to be off-topic, but I may as well vent. 

I can't say that I've ever experienced anything worse than this - BUT - it is this "standard" trash talk you speak of that I do not desire or require. It's completely unnecessary. 

"Gee, 4 of you ganged up on me while I'm fighting Ghost Widow, solo, in RV...such a display of skill." 

Why are 4 players tackling one? Because they can. But does that mean that they should? 

I get it, it's a pvp zone, you knew what you were getting yourself into when you zoned in. But it's because of THAT mind set that most folks avoid it.
Just my opinion, but chat should be disabled in pvp zones. I find all that "standard trash talk" rude, especially if I win!  I hardly ever win, and if I do, it's most likely because their cat got on the keyboard or something. 

I go there for badges only now. I have zero interest in playing a character for 50 levels, fine-tuning it, understanding it's attack chain and it's end recovery issues, if it has any, and then enter a pvp zone and discover my resistances are different, my defenses are different, my attack chain also has to change. What idiot thought that would be fun? I thought going into Warburg, I could do those missions to become accustomed to how my character would play under those rules, but as soon as you enter the mission, the pve rules kick back on. 

It's just a stupid, stupid implementation. Heck, that's probably why PvP is known for such hostility. The game makes people mad the instant they zone in because their character is completely different. 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The PvPers on the Homecoming forums are still fighting the war in their minds with the Paragon developers. So they come on here and valiantly defend PvP and attack anyone who doesn't like CoH PvP all the while saying "PvPers aren't insulting, it's the PvEers who are like that." "Oh, they're not horribly insulting, it's just standard trash talk."

 

Nah. I don't even pvp in this game any more. I don't care if you like it or not. But this kind of characterization is a joke, on many levels. An old, endlessly rehashed joke.

 

First of all pvpers are individuals. The few people in this thread disagreeing that pvp in this game was a mistake, or that pvpers are inherently toxic or something, do not represent some collective of evil pvpers that are out to gaslight you. Other pvpers may or may not agree with me. I think the oldschool ones that are still around don't even post on the forums much. Conversely, I'm very skeptical when someone claims that their viewpoint is in line with 90% of the playerbase. 

 

Here are some details about pvp in this game that I think are pretty straightforward and uncontroversial:

1. There was a faction of players that were anti-pvp from the get go. Some of them claimed to have been attracted to coh precisely because there was no pvp. They were pissed when arena pvp was added.

2. I think there were few, if any, complaints about toxic pvp behavior from the early period because it was completely gated off. There were no important things that pvers wanted that they had to pvp for. Also, the system was simpler. People were using SOs or Hammis. A build that favored single target dmg was better, but you didn't have an entirely different ruleset in play. I didn't have problems recruiting regular people for kickballs and matches. There was toxicity, but it was pretty much between specific groups of pvpers, not between pvpers and regular players. Anti-pvpers were still pissed, but their complaints generally had no teeth.

3. Along comes zone pvp. And the decision to add badges in the pvp zones. Now there is a heightened interaction between people who really have no interest in pvp and people who are only interested in pvp. This, I would argue is the source of the trauma that persists in some people to this day. 

4. Conflict between pvpers and badgers, etc. did not kill pvp. Castle's disastrous changes did not kill pvp. Lack of development. Outright game breaking bugs like the arena not working. Extremely slow response to imbalanced powers (pvpers basically ruled out things that were a problem when they ran events). A lot of different factors went into the decline.

 

Mistakes were certainly made. Was adding pvp therefore a mistake? No.

 

2 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Am I the only person that remembers the forum threads right before the PvP changes went live with Issue 13? The PvPers made a thread appealing to the PvE player base asking them to join the fight to stop the devs from changing PvP. That thread will filled full of PvEers refusing to help and specifically citing the abuse and insults that they've endured from PvPers over the years. And this wasn't just a couple of forum posters, it was hundreds.

 

Yeah I remember it. I also remember that a lot of the abuse boiled down to...getting killed in a pvp zone. "I just went in there to get a badge and this person killed me. I told them to stop, I just wanted the badge, and they killed me again! So I said hey asshole, I'm not here to pvp! Toxic pvpers!"

 

If someone was insulting you, you had tools to deal with it. Ignore them. Disable zone chat. Report them if they broke the EULA. The underlying issue is that, in a game were most things are easy to accomplish, pvp was a serious obstacle for players who were not willing to become skilled at it. Even then there were workarounds. Go in when a zone was empty. Get friends to help you. etc.

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Why are 4 players tackling one? Because they can. But does that mean that they should? 

 

Well, you're soloing Ghost Widow. So you're character is probably pretty tough, no?

Should they then wait for you to finish, and then duel you one at a time? What if you killed the AV and then turned around and ran out lol?

Zone pvp has nothing to do with fairness or balance, and it's generally imo the worst type of pvp in any game I've played (other than like a Battle Royale style game).

But the vast majority of complaints about coh pvp treat the zones as if they are representative of everything.

[Neiska]

Another thought that just occurred to me, isn't there different kinds/forms of PVP? You have open zone PVP, arena PVP, the old base-invasions, and I am not sure if legit dueling is a thing here. It might help clear the air if the people who speak both good or ill of PVP are clear on what kind of PVP they are on about.

[High_Beam]

On 9/6/2022 at 7:09 PM, roleki said:

 

Uh.  What do you think happens in a farm?

You know that is an actual good question.  My parents lived in Nebraska for a bit and from what I could tell farming has always been about working very hard, for months to prep and plant a crop wait for it to grow, tending it as you do then harvest it so that it can be sold.  But the paradox is that the people who want to buy that crop do so trying to get the lowest price possible.  Conversely all of that hard work invariably yields minimal rewards and a farmer might make a small profit in the end,.  Heaven help them if the crop gets infected or diseased or nature screwed or demand for the product goes down or its outsourced to a foreign country who will sell it cheaper.

 

So the very concept of using the term farming to describe what goes on in the game is the wrong word as it is the opposite of farming.

 

So I propose we call it something like Kardashianing . . . very little effort for huge reward.

[MoonSheep]

5 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

The PvPers on the Homecoming forums are still fighting the war in their minds with the Paragon developers. So they come on here and valiantly defend PvP and attack anyone who doesn't like CoH PvP all the while saying "PvPers aren't insulting

 

sounds identical to the pro-AE crowd during the beta server feedback threads

 

edit: point proven haha.. they can’t help themselves

Edited September 9, 2022 by MoonSheep

[srmalloy]

31 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Zone pvp has nothing to do with fairness or balance, and it's generally imo the worst type of pvp in any game I've played (other than like a Battle Royale style game).

The PvP in CoH at least has some attempts at leveling the participants, avoiding the worst of PvP that I've experienced in other MMOs, where it seems to be populated by jerks whose sole measure of their "leet skillz" as a gamer is how fast their level-capped combat monster with BiS gear can gank lowbies fresh out of the training zone, and who run like scared bunnies if they're ever put in a situation that even vaguely resembles a fair fight.

[High_Beam]

On 9/7/2022 at 2:13 PM, Glacier Peak said:

Moon base!

Eagle One standing by

[Astralock]

25 minutes ago, Neiska said:

Another thought that just occurred to me, isn't there different kinds/forms of PVP? You have open zone PVP, arena PVP, the old base-invasions, and I am not sure if legit dueling is a thing here. It might help clear the air if the people who speak both good or ill of PVP are clear on what kind of PVP they are on about.

 

Don't forget forum PvP.

[roleki]

37 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

The underlying issue is that, in a game were most things are easy to accomplish, pvp was a serious obstacle for players who were not willing to become skilled at it. Even then there were workarounds. Go in when a zone was empty. Get friends to help you. etc.

I think the animus felt towards PvPers and PvP in general boils down to that right there... when you get used to just waltzing through NPCs, getting your ass handed to you in an instant by some random character is going to bruise your feels a little, even moreso if you're not there for the PvP but for some other reason, like collecting badges.  There are probably people shitting on PvP who have never even been in a PvP zone, just because of the carryover stigma of PvP from other games.

[roleki]

18 minutes ago, High_Beam said:

So the very concept of using the term farming to describe what goes on in the game is the wrong word as it is the opposite of farming.

 

So I propose we call it something like Kardashianing . . . very little effort for huge reward.

 

Oh, so you have no idea what happens in a farm.  Hint: I click the same powers you do, just more often with less time wasted.  I get less rewards per click than you do, but I make up for it by sheer volume.

[High_Beam]

22 minutes ago, roleki said:

 

Oh, so you have no idea what happens in a farm.  Hint: I click the same powers you do, just more often with less time wasted.  I get less rewards per click than you do, but I make up for it by sheer volume.

Actually I am not wrong.  I have been in farms, and had a character go from level 1 to 50 in three hours.  and I did nothing, just sat there and made stupid jokes.  You cannot do that through normal play, no matter how much you try to spin it.  Again I am not saying you cant farm and I am not saying you are evil for farming, that would be hypocritical considering I have been in one or two myself.  What I am saying is the term farm is incorrectly applied to what is happening.  The Kardashian bit was was meant to be funny but if you want to take it serious, then do so; free world and all.