Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[Seed22]

On 9/6/2022 at 12:24 PM, Shadeknight said:

On that day I was annoyed with Group Fly, ehehe.

But like, you can go to PD and literally get rid of that issue.

 

And then, when you're not tired, you can put it back on.

[Seed22]

On 9/6/2022 at 2:55 PM, Yomo Kimyata said:

 

I'm not speaking for either the community or the developers.  I will give 20mm inf to any one who asks for it.  That's no secret.  I have written literally dozens of guides about how to extract inf from the market and I tell anyone who will listen.  That is also no secret.  There is no gatekeeping here other than you just not giving a rat's ass.

 

Maybe YOU should realize that if you choose not to take the easy path, that the community or the developers are under no obligation to show up on their knees at your doorstep giving you whatever you want for whatever it is you are willing to put into it, which is apparently nothing.

The thing with INF:

 

Thanks to Aether and I think my initial interest in HM(driven by my love of my Symph/Therm at that time), I was able to accrue 5bil. Now, mind you, I have...I dont even care anymore amount of 50's over all of this time, and I ignored the easy path(took me...3? Years to get to this point). And that's actually a GOOD thing, 'least for me. I like to think that the only reason I'm not fully considered casual is b/c I played CoH way back pre-shutdown and had prior knowledge to work off of, but I digress.

 

Not chasing that INF made it so I had a reason to play CoH, and I think a lot of folks may be in this camp, which is why you see post about Inf issues and such. Truth be told? Getting 5bil after making most of the builds I wanted...is kinda pointless. Now, what keeps me even playing at all is using AE for actual story content. I think someone mentioned earlier about how it would be a nightmare if CoH billionaires got bored and quit, and I generally agree.

 

I think that while sure, it's fairly easy to get inf and folks can/should try and read the guides, I think maybe the biggest issue is there's...nothing really to do with all that Inf. What? Donate to a CC(or depending, fund it yourself :P), or buy aether for some vanity costumes, or spend it in the tailor(good luck on that one!). Maybe we need not only more casual arc content(we do. We really do.) but also something actually worthwhile to spend inf on( That's a hard one, since build funding isn't really an issue, and I for one am not for MAKING it an issue.)

 

The issues surrounding HM is a whole 'nother can of worms to deal with in and of itself though, as I think has been noted plenty in this and the OG Feedback thread.

[Bill Z Bubba]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

Opinionated, yes. Absolutely. And yes, I believe everyone deserves respect merely for existing - until they behave in such a way that illustrates they don't deserve it. Why should I expect any less for myself than what I would give everyone else?

 

Treat others as they treat you. Bullies only stop being bullies after you punch them in the face a few times. Harm no other and do as ye will. Break that rule and you're no longer protected by it.

[Seed22]

On 9/6/2022 at 5:51 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

his is a Super Hero game. Not a farm simulator. Can we all just admit that the primary purpose behind this game is to be a Super Hero and fight bad guys?

They are, what's the issue? Bad guys, check(or good guys, I know it sems crazy but some of us know Redside Bestside :P), Capes and tight clothes? Check!

Edited September 11, 2022 by Seed22

[Neiska]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

(T)Rolling down-thumb on every post: Is it more like Farming or PVP sniping?

 

For me it feels more like a mix of trying to argue with a brick wall and hearding cats.

[America's Angel]

 

[Darmian]

O pointy birds, o pointy pointy,

Anoint my head, anointy-nointy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Saikochoro]

14 hours ago, America's Angel said:

Sorry to hear you're going off the game. I remember your feedback in the Rune of Protection thread being especially thoughtful & thorough.

For what it's worth, I've had suggestions of mine added to the game as well as changes rolled back after providing feedback...but I've also seen stuff added to the game that I disagreed with, and have had posts of mine deleted from feedback threads. It's just the nature of internet forums. Pays to try and not be too sensitive about it. Consider that 90% of focused feedback thread posts are:

• Players arguing with each other without testing anything.
• Players asking the devs to explain the reason for the changes, again without testing anything.
• Players giving feedback...on the patch notes.
• Dev haters and Dev fanboys Ben Shapiroing each other whilst giving the vaguest of nods to the topic of the thread.

I imagine it's wearying for the dev team to have to sift through all that noise to find feedback based on actually testing the changes. This is why your Rune feedback stood out, to the point where I can recall it one year on. That's how rare actual playtested feedback is.

 

And yes the dev fanboys + funpolice can be irritating. Early on in Page 4's development, I pointed out that removing vet XP from the AE would likely lead to a lot of PvPers (including myself) quitting the game, as we would now have to unlock our incarnates for our PvP characters by doing regular PvE content, rather than getting them quickly via farming. I was swamped by dev fanboys/funpolice who told me to deal with it. (I believe "earn it like everyone else" was said at one point.) The devs responded, we discussed it amidst all these fanboys telling me I was Playing Wrong, and the devs ultimately agreed with me. The result was the Temporal Warriors and free incarnates for PvP.

 

So, yeah, don't worry about the fanboys. They have no impact on anything. "The devs can do no wrong" is just as useless, and just as ignored, as "everything the devs do is wrong" when it comes to feedback.

 

In my experience the dev team do listen to feedback from players willing to compromise and discuss ideas. Case in point: a few years back I was rude to Powerhouse. I can't remember the specifics, but I think he added something to PvP that I disagreed with and my reaction was to critique him/his game knowledge, rather than critique the change. As a consequence, we pretty much didn't talk for a year. I regret doing it, and had a word with myself to not be such an asshole in future, and to try and compromise rather than demand everything fit the One True Way I believe the game should be. Cut to now: Powerhouse has no problem talking about balance stuff with me. He's even pinged me a few times about PvP-related balance tweaks. Nothing changed other than how I behaved.

 

So, moral of the story is that I changed how I behaved, treated others with respect, was willing to compromise, and stopped acting like such a bloody know it all, and as a consequence the devs started listening. I'd urge others in this thread to do the same. (Not you, you're fine Saikochoro. More of a general comment.)

 

One other thing worth mentioning is the Closed Beta discord/forums. They're worth joining. They allow players to test new changes and provide feedback on them before they become too set in stone. (Which is often, but not always, the case in Open Beta.)

That beta was where I finally caught on to how the devs treat feedback threads. I did some very thorough testing and stated my opinions on the matter. Yes, I was against the change. But then putting the change through is not what ultimately bothered me. It was the dev response to negative feedback, clearly biased moderation, and how’s the devs decided to obtain and weigh feedback the really bothered me. Bothered me to the point that I just had to take a break from the game for close to a year. 
 

Fanboys can be annoying, but they honesty don’t bother me to much. Other forum users can fanboy, spout doom and gloom, fun police, or just straight up troll. It can be annoying, but it doesn’t really get me to reconsider spending time in a community. If that were true I wouldn’t last more than a couple minutes in the overwatch cesspool of forums. 
 

I know I mentioned the direction of the game in my post. I don’t even have a problem with that. It’s how the devs engage in feedback threads that I have a problem with. 
 

I felt, and continue to feel, that the way the devs ask for and respond to feedback is very poor. This extends to moderation. It is very clearly biased against negative feedback. Those supportive of a change will get in arguments with those against. It will get heated and often both sides will become antagonistic. Those against a change will be heavily moderated and those for a change will not. I even recall that in the rune thread. I had comments deleted that said almost the same thing as those supporting a change and the support was left up. 
 

The devs also discourage negative feedback from threads telling people to stop discussing a change and that stating you don’t like the change is not feedback. That over simplifies peoples concerns and brushes them aside. Telling someone to stop caring about what they care about and go test something else isn’t helpful. The devs have also been straight up rude at times. Not saying players haven’t.
 

And honestly, that’s fine. It’s their game. They can conduct themselves and their betas however they see fit. I, however, feel “feedback” threads are not actually feedback threads. Sometimes they roll a change back, true, but the track record has been to generally discourage negative feedback and encourage positive feedback. If they just want a bug testing thread, then they should call it such. If they want an echo chamber of positive affirmations, then they should call it such. 

I don’t expect the devs to change to suit my preferences. Again, it is their game. But I am not going to waste hours testing something just to get backlash from the dev team who supposedly wanted feedback. It’s not worth my time. So I’m not invested in the game or the dev team. I still like the game and play it.  The devs are still doing a great service keeping it alive. But their behavior in betas has muted my interest in trying to be a part of its development via feedback. And because I’m not invested in how the game changes, it just overall lessens my interest in the game. 
 

But that is just me. I don’t claim to represent how anyone else feels. The devs should continue to do what they feel is best. I will also continue to do what I feel is best with free time. 

[Bionic_Flea]

9 hours ago, Saikochoro said:

 

I felt, and continue to feel, that the way the devs ask for and respond to feedback is very poor.

I agree with you that moderation is not always even handed.  But, to be fair, "The Devs" are not a monolith, nor even are they all "devs." 

 

The people moderating the forums are the GMs.  They do forum moderation and help you get that last critter stuck in a mission, but they have nothing to do with coding, tuning powers, or making content.  That's what the devs do.  And even the devs are broken down along those lines: coding, powers, art, writers, etc.  There may even be more categories and there are a few people that overlap a bit.  One of coding dev Faultline's favorite sayings is "I am not a powers dev."

 

And even within those categories and between the categories the devs don't always agree with what should be done.

 

So you shouldn't really blame the devs for moderation, because they didn't do it, the GMs did.  And those deleted posts are really not deleted; they are just hidden from the public forums and the GMs and Devs can still see them on their end.

 

And we should take some of the blame ourselves.  I, like many of you, sometimes get carried away by emotion and might take personal offense at something and respond with a personal attack.  We've all seen it happen.  And when that does happen, you can't really blame the GMs for doing their jobs and turning down the heat by removing personal attacks and belligerent debate that is just a bunch of weirdos on the internet arguing the fine details of a game they've all loved for years.

[InvaderStych]

13 minutes ago, Bionic_Flea said:

And we should take some of the blame ourselves.

 

So much this.

 

Thread title should have been Sins of The Players are visited upon the Players.

 

When people are using words like "ignorant," "stupid," "liar," and worse in their posts is it any wonder the threads turn into a shit-show and Mods come in to remove toxic posts?

 

The way we talk to each other matters.

 

Edited September 12, 2022 by InvaderStych
emphasis added

[Ukase]

18 hours ago, Seed22 said:

I think that while sure, it's fairly easy to get inf and folks can/should try and read the guides, I think maybe the biggest issue is there's...nothing really to do with all that Inf. What? Donate to a CC(or depending, fund it yourself :P), or buy aether for some vanity costumes, or spend it in the tailor(good luck on that one!). Maybe we need not only more casual arc content(we do. We really do.) but also something actually worthwhile to spend inf on( That's a hard one, since build funding isn't really an issue, and I for one am not for MAKING it an issue.)

Clearly you haven't met me, lol. 
Donate inf to a costume contest? That's not an inf sink. That's just inf transfer. 
And it's all too subjective. 
Even if I were to host one, I'd have to actually look at the costumes. There'd be no fun in that for me. That would actually be boring and a waste of time. 

Other than the badge for spending 50M at the tailor, I've never spent ANY inf at the tailor. I just don't get off on costumes. I see them as pretty much a waste of time. 
As for the prismatic, they're worthless other than being needed for the three badges. Sadly, the value of these has dropped below 20M inf, and will likely drop below 10M inf in another couple of weeks. 

There's a number of things we could possibly get to sink some influence, but it seems we don't have enough influence in circulation for them to create them in game. Just speculation on my part, nothing concrete. 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

And we should take some of the blame ourselves.  I, like many of you, sometimes get carried away by emotion and might take personal offense at something and respond with a personal attack.  We've all seen it happen.  And when that does happen, you can't really blame the GMs for doing their jobs and turning down the heat by removing personal attacks and belligerent debate that is just a bunch of weirdos on the internet arguing the fine details of a game they've all loved for years.

 

You can absolutely blame them. Some of the funniest exchanges ever just vanish into the ether. 

 

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

When people are using words like "ignorant," "stupid," "liar," and worse in their posts is it any wonder the threads turn into a shit-show and Mods come in to remove toxic posts?

 

 

It's relative. If there are a group of people that are all on the same page, they will be given a lot of leeway to describe things the way they want. There are posters who will be very upfront about ideas they don't like being so stupid that they must be driven off the forums. If there's a dogpile going on, typically about issues that forum regulars consider to be settled, people will be toxic as hell. They will mock the shit out of someone or some idea. It's just not considered toxic because there's a substantial group of people on one side who are in agreement.

 

The issue recently is that the update has created more discord along ideological faultlines. So there are more dissenters in play arguing against the status quo. Now when people can no longer just laugh or scorn something away, they start to complain about toxicity. The forums are too toxic, we need to watch how people talk to each other, etc. etc.

[InvaderStych]

21 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

It's relative.

 

No. It isn't.

 

There are absolutely, positively zero stakes in any discussion that happens on a gaming forum, and yet people treat the slightest change to their favorite thing as though it is the literal end of the world. Hurling insults, abusive language, circular arguments, troll posts meant only to perpetuate in-fighting are simply unnecessary.  Not just because they are counter-productive, but because there is nothing here so important that it is worth investing such emotional energy into it. 

 

Doing so clouds objectivity, muddles discussion, sows discontent, and accomplishes absolutely nothing resembling progress or community. I make no claims of innocence on this point, but I do try to be "Just The Facts, Ma'am" as much as I am able when discussing the game in feedback pages in open beta.

 

The absolute worst thing that can happen here is that one variation of a defunct game disappears leaving others in their wake.  That's it.  Something that I didn't have for a decade would be gone once again.  So what?

 

Nothing being discussed here rises to a level of import that remotely warrants the way Page 4 has been discussed.  While it is a symptom of a larger societal problem centered around the complete loss of our ability to engage in civil discourse upon topics about which we disagree, there is no reason to drag that problem here.

 

If a video game invokes anger and rage, then a break is in order. It is as simple as that.

[Number Six]

2 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

The people moderating the forums are the GMs.

 

I'm not going to get into moderation decisions because that's a GM thing; I don't tell them how to moderate and they don't tell me how to code.

 

If you want my advice on how to not get your posts in feedback threads hidden -- the #1 thing you can do to avoid it is don't argue with other players. Or if you're going to argue, put it in a separate post from your feedback so that when it inevitably gets removed it doesn't take the rest of your feedback with it.

 

But seriously just don't. There's no point to it. Maybe there's some idiot who drives you up the wall because of how utterly wrong they are. Maybe somebody is replying to everything you say with "diD YOu tEsT iT?" and it's making you crazy. Devs aren't going to choose to listen to your feedback over theirs based on how utterly you destroy them on the forums. Quite the opposite.

 

Ignore what other people are saying, it doesn't matter. Make your point clearly and succinctly. Solid reasoning and data to back it up (if you have it) are better than feels. Tune out the noise instead of adding to it.

[ivanhedgehog]

13 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

No. It isn't.

 

There are absolutely, positively zero stakes in any discussion that happens on a gaming forum, and yet people treat the slightest change to their favorite thing as though it is the literal end of the world. Hurling insults, abusive language, circular arguments, troll posts meant only to perpetuate in-fighting are simply unnecessary.  Not just because they are counter-productive, but because there is nothing here so important that it is worth investing such emotional energy into it. 

 

Doing so clouds objectivity, muddles discussion, sows discontent, and accomplishes absolutely nothing resembling progress or community. I make no claims of innocence on this point, but I do try to be "Just The Facts, Ma'am" as much as I am able when discussing the game in feedback pages in open beta.

 

The absolute worst thing that can happen here is that one variation of a defunct game disappears leaving others in their wake.  That's it.  Something that I didn't have for a decade would be gone once again.  So what?

 

Nothing being discussed here rises to a level of import that remotely warrants the way Page 4 has been discussed.  While it is a symptom of a larger societal problem centered around the complete loss of our ability to engage in civil discourse upon topics about which we disagree, there is no reason to drag that problem here.

 

If a video game invokes anger and rage, then a break is in order. It is as simple as that.

So you are saying "i dont care so you shouldnt care". Other people have different priorities than you. Thats life,

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

No. It isn't.

 

There are absolutely, positively zero stakes in any discussion that happens on a gaming forum, and yet people treat the slightest change to their favorite thing as though it is the literal end of the world.

 

Yes it is. What people find toxic is relative to the situation. You are not the arbiter of these things.

 

If there are zero stakes in any discussion here, does that mean the devs are lying when they say they listen to feedback? If this is all a huge waste of time, then what does it matter how people express themselves? Why are you complaining pointlessly over people complaining pointlessly?

 

Most people are not treating the slightest change as the end of the world. They are complaining about changes that effect how they play. But apparently they shouldn't get upset about anything like that because it's too low stakes--which indicates you don't really get the whole notion of escapist entertainment. Maybe we should be musing instead about the insignificance of human life in the face of the impending heat death of the universe lol?

 

Get off your high horse and try to empathize with other people, it will maybe help you understand the dysfunction going on.

[Ukase]

29 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

There are absolutely, positively zero stakes in any discussion that happens on a gaming forum, and yet people treat the slightest change to their favorite thing as though it is the literal end of the world. Hurling insults, abusive language, circular arguments, troll posts meant only to perpetuate in-fighting are simply unnecessary.  Not just because they are counter-productive, but because there is nothing here so important that it is worth investing such emotional energy into it. 

It would be insane to disagree with this, but I feel the need to nitpick. 

There SHOULD be nothing here so important that it is worth investing such emotional energy into it. 
I would go so far as to say, nobody SHOULD be spending hours upon hours investing in their characters each day - but it happens, and it happens a lot. When such investments are made, those with outside responsibilities, hot wives, families...we scratch our heads and wonder how/why something could be so important to them. 

But when you don't have those family ties or work responsibilities, and you've invested 14 hours a day into this character or that, and a change is made that impacts how you have invested in your characters and planned to do so for future characters, it should be pretty easy to understand how some folks can get bent out of shape. 

For some folks, during the pandemic, this game was all a lot of single folks had, sad to say. And even now that it's mostly over, it's still all some people have. For whatever their reasons - disability, disorders, just being a bum...whatever it might be - this is all they do. Stands to reason these folks are more emotionally invested than others. 

[InvaderStych]

31 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

So you are saying "i dont care so you shouldnt care".

 

Incorrect.

 

If I didn't care, then why did I go out of my way to demonstrate that Attack Typing Changes were completely irrelevant to a "Level 30 Blaster running SOs" after your repeated insistence that the changes were a death knell under those circumstances?

 

Caring about something does not mean one has to bring needless, counter-productive, emotional baggage to the discussion and use that as a launching point to senselessly attack anyone with whom one disagrees.

 

It is possible to talk about video games without that level of baggage.  Or it should be, but apparently it is not.

 

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

If there are zero stakes in any discussion here, does that mean the devs are lying when they say they listen to feedback?

 

Zero relationship between my point and that question.

 

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

If this is all a huge waste of time, then what does it matter how people express themselves?

 

Zero stakes does not mean "huge waste of time." It means Zero Stakes.  If you do not understand why it matters how people engage in debate or discourse with each other, and why doing so in a civil and objective manner is important then nothing I say will sway you otherwise.

 

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Maybe we should be musing instead about the insignificance of human life in the face of the impending heat death of the universe lol?

 

Perhaps we should.  If more people understood their own insignificance we would be much better off as a species.

 

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Get off your high horse and try to empathize with other people, it will maybe help you understand the dysfunction going on.

 

Ad hominem tactics only serve to demonstrate my point.

 

25 minutes ago, battlewraith said:

Why are you complaining pointlessly over people complaining pointlessly?

 

Why do you assume that my post is a complaint?  It was intended as a call for more civil and productive discussion from, well, everyone.  That you contextualize it in this manner also demonstrates my point.  Too many here have lost their objectivity and are only interested in engaging in troll-level arguing.

 

I suspected that my attempt at a call for "peace" as it were would be met with such attacks, but against my better judgement I made the attempt anyway.

 

Enjoy your senseless fighting on the internet.  I have (edit: almost) said what I needed to say on the topic.

 

🍻

 

Second Edit to reply to this:

 

  

12 minutes ago, Ukase said:

For some folks, during the pandemic, this game was all a lot of single folks had, sad to say.

 

My friend, you are describing me to a T.  I did not know about HC until right about the time of the original lockdown in 03/2020.  At the beginning of 2019 I had a month of work pulled out from under me by people who had previously told me how much they loved both my work and working with me.  Simultaneously I was going through the most painful relationship break-up I have ever experienced.  By May of that year I had cut myself off from my previous career path and effectively my entire friend group, even the oldest friends scattered around the nation. I wallowed listlessly for most of 2019, and right when I was ready to step into the world again in 2020, it shut down.

 

HC, possibly literally, saved my sanity for those first 4-8 months of lockdown and was my only source of social contact.  So trust me, I do understand this perspective.  But the level of animosity shown during Page 4 shown by some of us for each other and the Dev/GM team is completely out of bounds, entirely counter-productive, and arguably unhealthy for everyone involved.

 

Third Edit:

 

  

12 minutes ago, Ukase said:

But when you don't have those family ties or work responsibilities, and you've invested 14 hours a day into this character or that, and a change is made that impacts how you have invested in your characters and planned to do so for future characters, it should be pretty easy to understand how some folks can get bent out of shape. 

 

There is nothing wrong with feeling upset, getting bent out of shape, or experiencing anger.  I should have been more specific.  Trust me on this one; among my friends I am known as the "Mayor Of Angrytown" with good reason.  But feeling angry and expressing anger are two different things.  The former is natural, justifiable, defensible; it is the latter that is cause for the most concern.

Edited September 12, 2022 by InvaderStych
typo and additional content

[arcane]

A lot of the perceptions of bias seem to come from… bias. A lot of posts get deleted even when the poster is in favor of a dev change. I’ve seen no evidence that post deletions are imbalanced based on point of view.

[ivanhedgehog]

38 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Incorrect.

 

If I didn't care, then why did I go out of my way to demonstrate that Attack Typing Changes were completely irrelevant to a "Level 30 Blaster running SOs" after your repeated insistence that the changes were a death knell under those circumstances?

 

Caring about something does not mean one has to bring needless, counter-productive, emotional baggage to the discussion and use that as a launching point to senselessly attack anyone with whom one disagrees.

 

It is possible to talk about video games without that level of baggage.  Or it should be, but apparently it is not.

 

 

Zero relationship between my point and that question.

 

 

Zero stakes does not mean "huge waste of time." It means Zero Stakes.  If you do not understand why it matters how people engage in debate or discourse with each other, and why doing so in a civil and objective manner is important then nothing I say will sway you otherwise.

 

 

Perhaps we should.  If more people understood their own insignificance we would be much better off as a species.

 

 

Ad hominem tactics only serve to demonstrate my point.

 

 

Why do you assume that my post is a complaint?  It was intended as a call for more civil and productive discussion from, well, everyone.  That you contextualize it in this manner also demonstrates my point.  Too many here have lost their objectivity and are only interested in engaging in troll-level arguing.

 

I suspected that my attempt at a call for "peace" as it were would be met with such attacks, but against my better judgement I made the attempt anyway.

 

Enjoy your senseless fighting on the internet.  I have (edit: almost) said what I needed to say on the topic.

 

🍻

 

Second Edit to reply to this:

 

  

 

My friend, you are describing me to a T.  I did not know about HC until right about the time of the original lockdown in 03/2020.  At the beginning of 2019 I had a month of work pulled out from under me by people who had previously told me how much they loved both my work and working with me.  Simultaneously I was going through the most painful relationship break-up I have ever experienced.  By May of that year I had cut myself off from my previous career path and effectively my entire friend group, even the oldest friends scattered around the nation. I wallowed listlessly for most of 2019, and right when I was ready to step into the world again in 2020, it shut down.

 

HC, possibly literally, saved my sanity for those first 4-8 months of lockdown and was my only source of social contact.  So trust me, I do understand this perspective.  But the level of animosity shown during Page 4 shown by some of us for each other and the Dev/GM team is completely out of bounds, entirely counter-productive, and arguably unhealthy for everyone involved.

 

Third Edit:

 

  

 

There is nothing wrong with feeling upset, getting bent out of shape, or experiencing anger.  I should have been more specific.  Trust me on this one; among my friends I am known as the "Mayor Of Angrytown" with good reason.  But feeling angry and expressing anger are two different things.  The former is natural, justifiable, defensible; it is the latter that is cause for the most concern.

You seem to have a lot of emotion about this. maybe you should take your own advice or seek professional help? We are worried about you.

[InvaderStych]

20 minutes ago, ivanhedgehog said:

You seem to have a lot of emotion about this. maybe you should take your own advice or seek professional help? We are worried about you.

 

Nope. Just trying to make a call for peace.

 

Declaring that an anonymous group thinks negatively about an individual is a classic bullying tactic though, thank you for showing your true colors.

[battlewraith]

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Zero relationship between my point and that question.

 

The relationship is that the possibility that the devs may take notice and consequently make changes to the game is the chief stake that motivates a lot of people to argue in the first place. This I would think is obvious and overtly contradicts your line about zero stakes.

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Zero stakes does not mean "huge waste of time." It means Zero Stakes.  If you do not understand why it matters how people engage in debate or discourse with each other, and why doing so in a civil and objective manner is important then nothing I say will sway you otherwise.

 

Oh I understand it, I just don't think you're exemplifying it yourself. You come across as very invested in waving away other people's concerns, telling them what they should think is important and describing their perspectives in a very exaggerated way--eg. troll-level arguments over things in which they absolutely should not have that much emotional investment. This speaks to my point. I don't doubt you're sincere. You really think you're taking some high road. But to me it comes across as emotionally driven and biased as anything else I read here.

 

Also the zero stakes vs waste of time? Oh please. Cheap semantics.

2 hours ago, InvaderStych said:

Why do you assume that my post is a complaint?

 

Because of the exaggerated and judgmental tone of it. Meanwhile, the same general tone reflected back at you is considered an attack.

Edited September 12, 2022 by battlewraith

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, InvaderStych said:

Declaring that an anonymous group thinks negatively about an individual is a classic bullying tactic though, thank you for showing your true colors.

 

Which happens, what...almost daily on these forums? I'm glad you've finally taken a stand on this bullying. Keep up the good work and I look forward to the fair and objective standard that you will no doubt follow in calling out people for this kind of abuse going forward. 👍

[Bionic_Flea]

4 hours ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I, like many of you, sometimes get carried away by emotion and might take personal offense at something and respond with a personal attack.  We've all seen it happen.  And when that does happen, you can't really blame the GMs for doing their jobs

Point: made

Moderation: immanent 

 

[ivanhedgehog]

46 minutes ago, InvaderStych said:

 

Nope. Just trying to make a call for peace.

 

Declaring that an anonymous group thinks negatively about an individual is a classic bullying tactic though, thank you for showing your true colors.

I dont think negatively about you. I think you are doing the same thing you are accusing others of. or you are trolling. I am leaning towards the latter.