Sins of the Devs are visited upon the players

[lemming]

20 minutes ago, Coyotedancer said:

 

How many of your characters suddenly found that their former invisibility power was no longer invisibility but stealth? How many of them had their Stealth turned into a redundant travel power that they didn't need because they already had Superspeed or Flight?

So many that haven't been respec'd yet.    And I like infiltration.

[Coyotedancer]

2 minutes ago, lemming said:

So many that haven't been respec'd yet.    And I like infiltration.

 

I don't hate the power,,, I just don't need it on anyone who now has it. 

[Coyotedancer]

13 minutes ago, biostem said:

First, when CoH was young, there were only Blasters, Defenders, Scrappers, Tankers, and Controllers.  Blasters were the only ones who had extensive access to both ranged and melee attacks via their primary or secondary sets.  Instead of calling them a "ranged blaster" or a "melee blaster", the term "blapper" was coined for the latter.  I do recall the term "scranker" being used somewhat for a scrapper who invested more in survivability and the presence pool, however.  After CoV was introduced, there were some people calling themselves "tankerminds", and controllers who slotted their primaries more for damage were sometimes called "blastrollers"...

 

 

And Offenders... Can't forget the pointy, angry Defenders. XD

 

*pats her beloved Nemissary on the head*

[ivanhedgehog]

1 hour ago, Riverdusk said:

 

I love the new concealment pool.  Infiltration is my new favorite travel power that I now take on the majority of characters I make.  Stealth now has better stealth than it did and doesn't have a movement penalty.  Good stuff. 😁

Thats not the point. I like it too. but I have over 80 characters that need to repec because the powers that I took dont do what I took them for and the powers I didnt take do exactly what I need. Thats a LOT of power bars to reshuffle and it makes my head hurt. If I could do a 2 power switch, it would take 5 min.

[ivanhedgehog]

39 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I think Doms who hands should be called

....

Dappers

would corrupter who go hand to hand be called cra........nvm, I will just go outside and meditate....

[The_Warpact]

Well you have tankerminds and supportminds too, and I suppose you could come up with any variation. Wasn't there talk awhile back about "support tanks"?

[Glacier Peak]

4 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

Well you have tankerminds and supportminds too, and I suppose you could come up with any variation. Wasn't there talk awhile back about "support tanks"?

Primalists or Guardians? Or Strikers? Or Egyptian themed Epic ATs? Or an Incarnate AT?

[The_Warpact]

8 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Primalists or Guardians? Or Strikers? Or Egyptian themed Epic ATs? Or an Incarnate AT?

No tanks, that just held aggro and provided support to teammates when necessary. I saw it briefly and dismissed it, because, I can't see tanks with the medicine pool.

[Glacier Peak]

7 minutes ago, The_Warpact said:

No tanks, that just held aggro and provided support to teammates when necessary. I saw it briefly and dismissed it, because, I can't see tanks with the medicine pool.

The interrupt time of Aid Self as a Tank lol

[The_Warpact]

4 minutes ago, Krimson said:

The Medicine pool is just a waste of slots. I had it on my Mind/Poison Troller for a while, and when I respecced out of it, the extra set bonuses more than made up for the lost of powers that don't even work properly. 

I take it sometimes on my MMs if they don't have a heal in the secondary. My bots/ff benefits from it, other than that nah no thanks. Although dropping inspirations in them would probably be just as effective. 

[The_Warpact]

14 minutes ago, Krimson said:

I have an Illusion/FF Troller and I just use the Support Hybrid in addition to FF. Works on my pets and everyone else's. I still wouldn't waste precious slots on the Medicine pool.

On alot of my 50s I don't go past alpha, I find the grind for incarnate stuff is tedious asf.

[Ukase]

4 hours ago, biostem said:

First, when CoH was young, there were only Blasters, Defenders, Scrappers, Tankers, and Controllers.  Blasters were the only ones who had extensive access to both ranged and melee attacks via their primary or secondary sets.  Instead of calling them a "ranged blaster" or a "melee blaster", the term "blapper" was coined for the latter.  I do recall the term "scranker" being used somewhat for a scrapper who invested more in survivability and the presence pool, however.  After CoV was introduced, there were some people calling themselves "tankerminds", and controllers who slotted their primaries more for damage were sometimes called "blastrollers"...

I'm aware of the origin of Blapper. I maintain that it's not properly used. What do you call a blaster that attacks in melee - a blaster. There's no need to make the distinction. 
Heck, I remember someone on the live forums that wanted to make a "tankmage", as if that were actually a thing. You're either a tank, or you're not a tank. No such thing. 

I can't understand some folks wanting to create a new label when the label we already have defines it perfectly. 

With regards to blasters, there's nothing at all unusual about a blaster being in melee, which is why the blapper term is so annoying to me. 
Obviously, it's certainly nothing to cry about. It's just a peeve of mine. 


I have a clear memory of needing to defeat Positron in RV about 3 years ago. Maybe a little less. It was the last pvp badge I needed. A fairly easy thing to do with a team, but I was solo. Not multiboxing either. Only had one account at the time. 

I brought out my wolf from Tobias, the heavy from RV, the HVAS temp from VG merit exchange, Katie Hannon temp, Knight Errant, Snow Beast, a Shivan, the Tsoo Sorceror temp and I think I brought out the 3 tiny gears from Penny Yin, too. (Needed all of them, too! Barely beat him. He had my powers with such -recharge, I could barely see them in the tray they were so small! ) At no time did I even think of myself as a blastermind or a blastroller. Still a blaster, regardless of attack position. Regardless of temp pets being called out. Oh - forgot, I even had the three tiny spiders from the epic pool, too. That damn Posi in RV was tough for my mediocre blaster! 

[battlewraith]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

I'm aware of the origin of Blapper. I maintain that it's not properly used. What do you call a blaster that attacks in melee - a blaster. There's no need to make the distinction. 
Heck, I remember someone on the live forums that wanted to make a "tankmage", as if that were actually a thing. You're either a tank, or you're not a tank. No such thing. 

I can't understand some folks wanting to create a new label when the label we already have defines it perfectly. 

 

The labels reflect trends at the time. Blasters, at least the ones I knew, were squishy as hell in the early days of the game. My first character was a dm/inv scrapper when that combo was really strong. It wasn't uncommon for blasters to recruit me for a team so that they could blast away and die less. It was not common for blasters to stay in melee for long, hence the origin of the term blapper. 

 

"Tankmage" was a generic term for a character that can deal tons of damage and be unkillable. Had nothing to do with playing a tank in coh.

[biostem]

30 minutes ago, Ukase said:

I'm aware of the origin of Blapper. I maintain that it's not properly used. What do you call a blaster that attacks in melee - a blaster. There's no need to make the distinction. 
Heck, I remember someone on the live forums that wanted to make a "tankmage", as if that were actually a thing. You're either a tank, or you're not a tank. No such thing. 

You are applying your own methodology here, not that of the CoH community circa 2005-ish.  Most blasters did not, in fact, leverage their melee attacks back then, thus the distinction of a "blapper", to quickly and easily distinguish themselves from "regular" blasters, which only really leveraged ranged attacks.

 

In reference to the term "tankmage" - that term predates CoH, and reflects a character that possesses both strong ranged attacks AND defenses/is high durability.  It's not a reference to CoH tankers...

[melancholicmoods]

12 hours ago, Astralock said:

 

The base macro was an exploit.  It was never intended for players to use.  It allowed people to cheese Master of * runs, and PvP.  More importantly, what few people knew up until the exploit was closed, was that because the command was never meant for players to have, it let you literally go anywhere in the game.  Including other people's missions and Incarnate trials.  The base macro exploit had to go.  And yes, some people did use it to do exactly that.

I'm not doubting you, I'd just never heard of those uses. How would it allow you to go anywhere in the game, like in missions and what not and not just to an SG base? Even then, why not just change the code so that it only allowed you to transport to your sg base? They did that anyway, just that it only works now if you're standing next to an sg portal.

[biostem]

12 minutes ago, melancholicmoods said:

I'm not doubting you, I'd just never heard of those uses. How would it allow you to go anywhere in the game, like in missions and what not and not just to an SG base? Even then, why not just change the code so that it only allowed you to transport to your sg base? They did that anyway, just that it only works now if you're standing next to an sg portal.

This is total conjecture, but I'd guess that the "code" you enter is not some arbitrary value, and perhaps could point to any instanced content, if you knew that right value to enter...

[srmalloy]

On 9/2/2022 at 2:35 PM, Riverdusk said:

The much less disruptive way would be to just completely remove xp and drops from AE no? 

Actually, you should be getting XP from AE missions, since they are supposed to be a simulation of reality, so that you're learning to use your powers the same way you would out in the 'real world'. Drops is something that AE itself would have to accommodate; since you're in a digital simulation, nothing you receive inside a mission has any existence outside, so AE itself would have to award them to you to match what you 'earned' in the mission. Influence (infamy, information), though, no. The game lore for the currency is that inf represents your reputation, and the willingness of others to do things to support you -- and I don't see how crawling into your electronic navel at level 1, then coming out at level 50, would give you any reputation whatsoever with the public -- "You're a 'Hero of the City'? What was your name again? I never heard of you." Now, I realize that this last is going to be hugely unpopular, and people are going to say that inf is just a currency, but then it comes back to how you earn a 'real world' currency inside a digital simulation. And this is just my opinion, and I have little to no influence (heh) on the HC staff in this regard.

Edited September 4, 2022 by srmalloy
formatting

[srmalloy]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:02 PM, ivanhedgehog said:

would corrupter who go hand to hand be called cra........nvm, I will just go outside and meditate....

Keep the original side -- Corrutes.

[ForeverLaxx]

To the issue of respecs, the real problem is that the UI and systems used for a respec is just the standard level-up screen and it does not work very well when you're asked to re-pick all your powers, reassign slots, then drop in enhancements from a tiny enhancement window that likes to mix things up. IOs made respecs feel even worse than before because sometimes, changing powers drastically enough to require a respec could completely ruin your overall IO build if the sets you used in the now "dead" power can't be easily transferred to the new replacement power. You basically have to rebuild everything from the ground up to account for the new power and might even have to get entirely new IOs to outfit it with. Back when all you had were SOs and HamiOs, this was a much smaller nuisance.

 

I don't think there can be a solution to this without completely redesigning the entire system and interface for it, and that's something I wouldn't expect even the Live Devs to tackle, much less volunteer ones.

 

That said, wanting no change to ever require a respec and to "get it right the first time" is basically impossible. We're not building cabinets to suit a client's specifications, we're building character systems with a degree of personal autonomy and breadth of choice that something, somewhere, won't do what it's supposed to. Maybe a set is just so numerically bad that something has to be done about it. Maybe something is so far away above everything else that designing new content becomes difficult as you have to account for full teams of the OP thing and its wiser to just nerf the OP thing first.

 

"Do it right the first time" shows a lack of understanding of how evolving systems and player influence can impact the final product. I get that respecs are annoying and IO builds just make them more so, but nothing in the game is ever going to be untouched after release for long. Something, somewhere, will always break.

[Grouchybeast]

8 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Actually, you should be getting XP from AE missions, since they are supposed to be a simulation of reality, so that you're learning to use your powers the same way you would out in the 'real world'. Drops is something that AE itself would have to accommodate; since you're in a digital simulation, nothing you receive inside a mission has any existence outside, so AE itself would have to award them to you to match what you 'earned' in the mission. Influence (infamy, information), though, no. The game lore for the currency is that inf represents your reputation, and the willingness of others to do things to support you -- and I don't see how crawling into your electronic navel at level 1, then coming out at level 50, would give you any reputation whatsoever with the public -- "You're a 'Hero of the City'? What was your name again? I never heard of you." Now, I realize that this last is going to be hugely unpopular, and people are going to say that inf is just a currency, but then it comes back to how you earn a 'real world' currency inside a digital simulation. And this is just my opinion, and I have little to no influence (heh) on the HC staff in this regard.

 

Since I would guess that most people who PL to 50 in AE are doing it with a 2x XP booster to save time, this actually fits the lore perfectly.  They get faster experience in the carefully tuned training environment, but they indeed don't get any influence for it.  Unless, of course, their mentor puts in a word for them with the powers that be around the City or the Isles (i.e. drops a boatload of inf on them so they can outfit with IOs).  Your mentor, of course, is gaining influence as they become widely known for the time they devote to training mentees.

[Blackbird71]

2 hours ago, ForeverLaxx said:

To the issue of respecs, the real problem is that the UI and systems used for a respec is just the standard level-up screen and it does not work very well when you're asked to re-pick all your powers, reassign slots, then drop in enhancements from a tiny enhancement window that likes to mix things up. IOs made respecs feel even worse than before because sometimes, changing powers drastically enough to require a respec could completely ruin your overall IO build if the sets you used in the now "dead" power can't be easily transferred to the new replacement power. You basically have to rebuild everything from the ground up to account for the new power and might even have to get entirely new IOs to outfit it with. Back when all you had were SOs and HamiOs, this was a much smaller nuisance.

 

The additional problem here is when changes are significant enough to change how a character plays, in terms of how a power or powers work and the tactics and strategy needed to make use of them.  These are things that are learned, both in terms of mindset and muscle memory, as a character is played from 1-50 and new powers are acquired gradually.  Suddenly shifting everything at 50 when all powers and changes are acquired at once can be difficult to adapt to.  At least for me, it often encourages recreating the character from scratch instead of just respecing, for the sake of learning the changed powers and adapting to the updates.  But this is usually such a daunting and discouraging task that I end up just shelving the character instead.

If you change a power that happens to be a cornerstone of a particular build, it can completely change how the build plays, so in this every functional change to what powers do can have dramatic consequences.  This is exactly why the cottage rule existed for the Live devs, to avoid causing unnecessary player frustration with having to change builds and relearn characters.

[Erratic1]

On 9/2/2022 at 5:31 PM, biostem said:

First, when CoH was young, there were only Blasters, Defenders, Scrappers, Tankers, and Controllers.  Blasters were the only ones who had extensive access to both ranged and melee attacks via their primary or secondary sets.  Instead of calling them a "ranged blaster" or a "melee blaster", the term "blapper" was coined for the latter.  I do recall the term "scranker" being used somewhat for a scrapper who invested more in survivability and the presence pool, however.  After CoV was introduced, there were some people calling themselves "tankerminds", and controllers who slotted their primaries more for damage were sometimes called "blastrollers"...

 

I thought Scranker referred to Tankers who thought they were damage dealers.

[Tachstar]

11 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Actually, you should be getting XP from AE missions, since they are supposed to be a simulation of reality, so that you're learning to use your powers the same way you would out in the 'real world'. Drops is something that AE itself would have to accommodate; since you're in a digital simulation, nothing you receive inside a mission has any existence outside, so AE itself would have to award them to you to match what you 'earned' in the mission. Influence (infamy, information), though, no. The game lore for the currency is that inf represents your reputation, and the willingness of others to do things to support you -- and I don't see how crawling into your electronic navel at level 1, then coming out at level 50, would give you any reputation whatsoever with the public -- "You're a 'Hero of the City'? What was your name again? I never heard of you." Now, I realize that this last is going to be hugely unpopular, and people are going to say that inf is just a currency, but then it comes back to how you earn a 'real world' currency inside a digital simulation. And this is just my opinion, and I have little to no influence (heh) on the HC staff in this regard.

 

Some form of Esports, maybe? Maybe the residents of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles (or wherever) like to watch their favorite AE heroes/villains streaming/broadcasting missions from AE. Maybe there could even be a sort of 'Paragon City Idol' thing with established heroes judging the hopefuls on their performances (with Positron being the CoX variant of Simon Cowell).

 

See also: "Live from Kings Row, it's AE Farm Night!" and 'Justin Sinclair's AE Special'.

[srmalloy]

11 minutes ago, Tachstar said:

Some form of Esports, maybe? Maybe the residents of Paragon City and the Rogue Isles (or wherever) like to watch their favorite AE heroes/villains streaming/broadcasting missions from AE.

It wouldn't be the current farming arrangement, though, because watching the same heroes or villains running through the same mission over and over and over and over again would rapidly become boring, and the cluster of doorsitters doing absolutely nothing would generate no interest at all. Competitions where there was a stock mission and participants would compete to get the best clear time, with inf or drops awarded to the top finishers could work, although again, the current farming arrangement where you run missions that give you no real challenge wouldn't be a draw to the public. There are a number of ways that you could make AE into a spectator sport, but none of them work with the farming that it's used for now. Having, say, a monthly rotation of AE missions where the best completion times were recorded on a leader board by team size, perhaps awarding a tiered badge like the "N time the victor" badge from the Katie Hannon TF for the top finisher, or just a series of badges for finishing first once, ten times, a hundred times, etc.

[srmalloy]

3 hours ago, Grouchybeast said:

Since I would guess that most people who PL to 50 in AE are doing it with a 2x XP booster to save time, this actually fits the lore perfectly. 

Except for one thing. The XP boosts trade off inf received for increased XP; if you're not getting any inf from AE missions, then what are you trading off to get the extra XP? If AE missions didn't give inf rewards, then XP boosters would have to be disabled as WELL inside AE missions, otherwise you're just getting free XP.