Make Tough & Weave available without taking Boxing or Kick first

[Zhym]

It's a simple QoL change.  I can't possibly be the first to suggest it.  However:

 

Tough and Weave are both really useful.  They appear in lots of builds.  Most of my characters have one or both.

 

Then there's Boxing and Kick.  The last thing most characters need is an extra, weak, single-target melee attack power.  But we take one of them because we have to to get to Tough and Weave—and then ignore it.

 

So why not just let us take Tough or Weave directly without having to take Boxing or Kick first?

Edited October 19, 2022 by Zhym

[Outrider_01]

Its the tax to be able to slot a 7.5% LoTG and 2 +3% def All/All, as well as 2 options for +KB protections, 3-4 slotting also to get a bit extra +S/L defense in resist or a bit of next to useless 1.5% S/L resist itself.

 

tl;dr - 1 power pick, way too much utility and benefit for the other 2

[kelika2]

1 hour ago, Outrider_01 said:

Its the tax to be able to slot a 7.5% LoTG and 2 +3% def All/All, as well as 2 options for +KB protections, 3-4 slotting also to get a bit extra +S/L defense in resist or a bit of next to useless 1.5% S/L resist itself.

 

tl;dr - 1 power pick, way too much utility and benefit for the other 2

whoa

what if boxing and kick increase def to the user by 1.5% and takes defense sets

[High_Beam]

Well to be both snarky (no relation) and semi-realistic, if they removed the "tax" power pick prerequisite they would likely reduce the values (enhancement numbers) that Tough and Weave provide to balance since the historic statement and precedence is that no Pool Power should function greater than a Primary or Secondary (yes I know Sorcery is staring at me).  Similarly if they added even a miniscule +DEF or +RES to those "tax" powers they would be even more inclined to notch numbers down.

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Zhym said:

So why not just let us take Tough or Weave directly without having to take Boxing or Kick first?

 

Because if it's done for Tough and Weave, it has to be done for Misdirection/Tactics/Spring Attack/Invoke Panic/Enflame/Burnout/Fold Space.

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 hours ago, Zhym said:

It's a simple QoL change.  I can't possibly be the first to suggest it.

It wouldn't be just a QoL change. It would make my Tanker more powerful, yet again.

 

So, awhile back, they moved Afterburner from the Flight Pool into being an inherent for Fly. Not having to take Afterburner freed up a power pick for my Invuln/EM Tanker, allowing me to take Build Up.

 

Now they've the Secondary Tier 1 & 2 attacks interchangeable, so I'll be able to drop Barrage for Energy Punch, once my computer is back from the shop, which will further increase my Tanker's damage output.

 

So yeah, please let me drop Kick and take another power, and my Tanker will become even more powerful. And Snarky will sink further into depression and somehow make it out to be yet another nerf to Brutes.  😄

[Rudra]

Power creep is always presented as a quality of life change/improvement. This is power creep, not quality of life.

[Zhym]

2 hours ago, Outrider_01 said:

Its the tax to be able to slot a 7.5% LoTG and 2 +3% def All/All, as well as 2 options for +KB protections, 3-4 slotting also to get a bit extra +S/L defense in resist or a bit of next to useless 1.5% S/L resist itself.

 

tl;dr - 1 power pick, way too much utility and benefit for the other 2

But Maneuvers lets you slot all of that, too—and while the initial defense boost is lower, it scales up in groups.  And it's available as the first power in the set. 

 

22 minutes ago, Luminara said:

Because if it's done for Tough and Weave, it has to be done for Misdirection/Tactics/Spring Attack/Invoke Panic/Enflame/Burnout/Fold Space.

Fair point, but you're grouping some third, fourth, and even fifth powers in that list. Travel powers already make the third power available at level 4 with no prerequisites.  And instead of making both Tough and Weave available immediately, maybe they could be done like the travel powers—Tough is available at level 4, and Weave requires Tough and one other power.  Applying the same logic to other pool powers would allow Tactics, Aid Self, and Intimidate at level 4 with no other powers from the pool.  That's it.  Fighting, Leadership, Medicine, and Presence are the only pools where the third power still requires level 14 and one of the first two powers.  And those pools all have first or second powers that are worth taking.

 

But the real problem IMO is that Boxing and Kick are so useless (other than as a Kinetic Combat mule).  I don't have any good solution for that, though—other than removing Kick and Boxing entirely and replacing them with something useful.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Zhym

[Rudra]

The travel power sets were broken off from other pool sets because asking players to wait until level 14 to make their wings work or their speedster run was always a bit ludicrous. The other power pools should not ever be made to match the way the travel pools are now.

[Luminara]

31 minutes ago, Zhym said:

But the real problem IMO is that Boxing and Kick are so useless (other than as a Kinetic Combat mule).

 

They're not useless, they're early selections.  Powers acquired later tend to obviate early selections.  But if the game permitted players to bypass everything but the strongest and/or most utilitarian powers, other problems begin to surface.  How, for instance, do you make an attack chain at level 8 with Total Focus and Energy Transfer, if the game permitted one to take those powers at that level?  Your global +Recharge is hilariously low, you don't have the slots to dedicate to making those two attacks great... it's a non-viable approach.  While you're standing there, waiting for something to recharge, you're being beaten to a greasy smear.  That's why restrictions like this were implemented in the first place, to ensure that players weren't trying to make a non-viable character.  Archetypes, pool limitations, they exist to guarantee that players never make a choice so bad that a character can't be played.

 

The game needs powers like Boxing and Kick.  The game needs T1s and T2s and T3s, in pools, in sets, in *PPs.  Those are the powers we use to get to the point where we can complain about how useless they are.  No, they aren't great, but they're not supposed to be.  Great comes later.  Before we reach great, we have to settle for good enough, for things we know will be useless later.

 

Additionally, circling back to my original post, once you do this for one pool, it has to be done for all pools, including *PPs.  That opens up a nasty can of worms.  Several cans, in fact.  Cans we really don't want to open, such as, if we remove the prerequisites for pool and *PP powers, shouldn't we also remove the level requirements on primary/secondary powers?  Or, if we're making it even easier to access the most commonly taken pool powers, what are we adding to replace the powers being skipped so players don't go ape-shit on the developers when they decide they're being "forced" to take "useless" primary/secondary powers?  Or, if we can get everything we want without paying power selection "taxes", and we don't want "useless" primary/secondary/*PP powers, why can't we have six pools, or eight, or just remove the pool lockouts altogether?

 

Lastly, Fighting isn't mandatory.  There are other Defense and Resistance powers available to every archetype.  Every character, every build, is a balance of compromise, a blend of choices we make.  If those compromises, those choices, are removed, we end up with a bigger homogenization problem than we already have.  Look at the Fitness pool, where is that now?  Look at the comments made about Hasten and how it should be inherent, since "everybody takes it".  How far down the road of making "good" powers inherent do we go before we stop and realize that all we're really doing is removing customization and personalization?  Yet another can of worms to stare at as they wriggle around on your plate.

[gameboy1234]

I'd actually like to see something like a "Defense" power pool.  It should have different values for each AT, but Tanks, Brutes, Scrappers, etc. should be able to get a little extra Def/Res, and squishies should be able to get a larger bonus.  Basically everyone (well all squishies) should be able to get defense like Sentinels, just by taking a few powers.

 

This would obviously require moving some other defensive powers around (like Tough and Weave) to prevent stacking too much defense, but I think it would be better for the game overall players are able to just get powers they want.

 

[Rudra]

Then what would be the point of the Sentinel AT?

[kelika2]

Maybe the recent patch on allowing us to select tier 1 or 2 from secondary was a test to see if we can make the OPs wishes come true.

So many blasters are dumping their immobilize for an extra mule

Tons of doms are dropping their T1 attack

 

sit tight folks, might happen.  or they will make tough/weave baseline for everyone but make them timed toggles and add even more attacks to fighting, like throwing a rock or the old storm kick animation

[FupDup]

Compromise Idea:

 

Apply the same "Fighting Synergy" idea from the attack powers in the pool to Tough and Weave. Allow them to be taken without any prerequisites, BUT they are drastically weaker (lower values and/or higher end costs) if you take them alone. 

 

So if you took Tough by itself, it might have only 1/2 the usual resists at a higher end cost. If you took Weave by itself, the defenses might be only around 1/4 of what they normally are at a higher end cost. If you took the usual triplet (Kick/Boxing + Tough + Weave) they would be equal to where they are now. If you added on Cross Punch and/or an extra T1 attack they might even be a little bit stronger? 

 

This would also open up the possibility to make Kick or Boxing give different benefits to Tough/Weave just like they do with Cross Punch. So one of them might lower the end cost and give a small protection bonus while the other only gives stronger protection but in a larger amount, so that there's a little bit of thought to choosing which one you want to use as the prerequisite (or both if you can spare the power picks). 

 

Alternatively we might just give a bump to how effective Boxing and Kick are so that they're less of a "waste." Boxing for example could really use a higher magnitude for its effect because it rarely works even against minions (compared to Kick which is very consistent at KD'ing against LT's and many bosses). 

 

Or really we don't need to do anything here since Tough and Weave are already strong powers as it is, even with the one "wasted" power pick factored in to the equation. And IMO, I kind of like having powers that take few/no slots so that I can dedicate more slots elsewhere. 

[Wavicle]

I'm not sure I think this is a good idea.

But I'll play along.

IF I thought this was a good idea, here's how I would do it:

 

Tough and Kick get switched in order.

Tough gets nerfed slightly. Kick gets buffed slightly.

 

Done.

[battlewraith]

I think crosspunch was the attempt to justify the idiotic waste of a power choice that is having to take boxing or kick as a prerequisite for tough and weave. It at least gives those selections a possibility of being meaningful to unlock an attack that is actually good.

 

What I would like to see is more power pools, particularly ones that provide the things that players want (more res, more def, +perc, etc.) without requiring players to dip into the standard choices--fighting, leadership, and so on. I would also like to see them jettison the old philosophy that pool powers need to be inferior to those of sets. If hardly anyone actually takes and uses certain power selections--that's indicative of bad design.

 

In the event they don't do that, I would suggest adding another first tier power to the fighting pool that isn't a pure waste to most builds. My suggestion would be a click +range power similar to boost range from the blaster energy secondary. Understanding range is fundamental to actual fighting and this makes as much sense as the idea that a boxer's bob and weave skill would be helpful in dodging fireballs and energy blasts. Does this mean they'd have to add another tier one power to all the pools? Nope. They can prioritize the sets that affect a lot of builds without waiting on parity for all the possible options.

[Spectre7878]

I can see both sides to this issue but I have never been a fan of taking powers I don’t want or need from a pool just to get the one I want. There are many patron pool the put the armor behind a power that is a big waste of time. I say let the players take the powers they want from the pool and be done with the prerequisites. 

[Communistpenguin]

Im fine with keeping boxing and kick, but could we maybe get a short ranged attack in the pool as an alternate option? Same strength as boxing, give it the throwing knife or shuriken animation.

[Starhammer]

On 10/19/2022 at 3:05 PM, Wavicle said:

I'm not sure I think this is a good idea.

But I'll play along.

IF I thought this was a good idea, here's how I would do it:

 

Tough and Kick get switched in order.

Tough gets nerfed slightly. Kick gets buffed slightly.

 

Done.

I'd really enjoy that switch. I have a lot of characters that don't need yet another weak melee attack, but would love a Tough that's more like a Res based Combat Jumping (Setting aside that Leaping is a mess, and CJ is too good while Acrobatics isn't good enough). And then the characters that do need another melee attack could have a more significant Kick, Which on some, I use all the way past 50 just because I like the animation and knock, but regret the poor performance if I haven't taken Boxing & Cross Punch.

[Black Zot]

On 10/19/2022 at 7:05 PM, Wavicle said:

I'm not sure I think this is a good idea.

But I'll play along.

IF I thought this was a good idea, here's how I would do it:

 

Tough and Kick get switched in order.

Tough gets nerfed slightly. Kick gets buffed slightly.

 

Done.

 

How exactly do you propose to nerf the weakest resist toggle in the game any further?

[SeraphimKensai]

Would I take advantage of this if it were implemented? Yes as I'm a min-maxer at heart.

 

That said I can see that this would take away a power cost gatekeeping much desired powers, this change could set precedent (hello epics, patrons, rune of protection at lvl 4, and unleash potential at lvl 6). I think it likely would have the potential for too much power creep.

[Wavicle]

4 hours ago, Black Zot said:

 

How exactly do you propose to nerf the weakest resist toggle in the game any further?

cut it in half and make it a passive

[Aracknight]

Say no more...

 

[archgemini24]

On 10/21/2022 at 2:52 PM, Wavicle said:

cut it in half and make it a passive

 

I am not sure if doing both would make it a full-on nerf. The values would be lower, sure, but as a passive it would be free, always active, and still retain its capacity to carry the Unique Resistance and KB protection IOs.

[Wavicle]

8 hours ago, archgemini24 said:

 

I am not sure if doing both would make it a full-on nerf. The values would be lower, sure, but as a passive it would be free, always active, and still retain its capacity to carry the Unique Resistance and KB protection IOs.

 

All it takes to be able to move it to tier 1 is to lower the values. The other elements are irellevant.