Stalker Theorycrafting: No Hide

[Random Axis]

I was fiddling around making yet another alt and noticed that thanks to the new page letting us pick the first or second skill for the secondary, stalkers can completely skip taking hide. It seems like an absolutely terrible idea at first--and also at the second and third thought. We live in a world with petless mastermind builds, so what sort of gimmicky stalkers can be made with no hide?

 

 

[Lines]

Has anyone tested whether the ATO Chance to Hide works without having hide as a power?

[AlwaysAPrice]

It sure does, makes you Hidden when it procs whether or not you have the Hide power.

 

Honestly, Hide becoming optional made me reconsider just how necessary it is as anything more than a LotG mule, and I'm not convinced it is. It's probably semi-vital for levelling up and obviously from-Hide AS is great burst damage, but aside from quickly eliminating one nuisance minion or lieutenant or jumpstarting the only slightly longer elimination of a boss, I find I don't really *need* that burst very often at all and can just chew through things with my normal ST or AoE attack chains (with fastfire AS that is, not in the AS-less case describbed in my 'Stapper' thread posted earlier) as fast or faster than factoring in the interrupt period allows.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AlwaysAPrice

[SeraphimKensai]

Hide does grant a huge amount of AoE defense as well. Well you could probably make a scrappy stalker without hide, I think I'll be keeping hide in my builds.

[Random Axis]

8 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

I'll be keeping hide in my builds.

Same. That's why I compared it to petless MMs. It's not using a defining aspect of the class. I'm pretty sure it boils down to being able to make ice/ice more like a scrapper rather than a dramatic improvement like making regen good because you don't need to take hide anymore.

[StrikerFox]

Stalkers still build AF and can activate ATO procs without Hide. It's totally skippable, but still provides a good amount of defense for a single power pick. Can mule several important, unique IOs. I think it cost zero endurance to use. Can help speed through portions of a mission. Hide is still worth the slot imo. I think any build without Hide would be overall weaker than with.

[Frosticus]

My sav/shield/soul could skip hide with minimal downside. I open with savage leap. Only used slow AS a couple times in earlier levels. I actually wonder if placate would suit that build more as it is rare to "need " help at the start of the fight.

 

Sav/shield/mu spec of the same character would miss it though as I opened with ball lightning > leap

[kelika2]

[Sovera]

Considering people pick CJ or Stealth for the defense bonus and Hide provides it, and gives flexibility to start combat hitting the target that they care to take out first.

 

Once combat start sure it's scrapperino time.

 

My vote is on not skipping.

[Haijinx]

Hide is a huge bonus to solo-ing missions as a Stalker, since it lets you avoid most groups of baddies. 

[tidge]

Even if level 50 slotting allows for set bonuses which grant Accuracy, I will always think of Hide as the home for the Kismet +ToHit piece.

[Rogginator]

I made one and have it to Level 30 something right now. Psi / Ninja. Took stealth and all of the placates (Placate from psi, pacify, smoke flash, and misdirection - mostly as a trial). With placate you can still get your AS in first strike, and with Stealth + Celerity +Stealth on Sprint you still get enough stealth radius to sneak up to just about anything. Once Mids is updated and I've figured out if all the placates are unnecessary I will make a real build for it, but it's been a lot of fun to play so far (all solo / ToT). I'm sure it's a terrible group toon.

[Camelbobsled]

Honestly, it’s going to boil down to the primary you select. Obviously for certain combinations that have mechanics that utilize Hide (elec/shield) or allow for instant BU (KM) or guaranteed Aoe crit (KM again) hide is a must. For others? A case can be made to skip. I just finished a StJ/Ice and found hide to be largely a waste of a power pick. My final build could have hide or unleash potential, one guess which power I opted for. The benefit of Hide end game is greatly exaggerated as well. Sure it’s nice to stealth missions but SS with a Celerity +Stealth works just fine. The huge Aoe def bonus? Only applies outside of combat, no real point of that. The def of hide when slotted, my typically set up was 2 parts reactive (Def/Res scaling) Shield Wall +res, and a Lotg 7.5%, that adds a whopping 2.5ish…. Nothing spectacular at all to justify a power pick and slots. AS from hide? Sure, the burst dmg is handy but hardly something I’d consider game changing. Now if Hide granted some DDR or something else to warrant it being picked I’d reconsider it. The fact is you can easily get away without picking Hide if your primary/secondary allows it and not grabbing it isn’t gimping yourself by any means, it lets you have more freedom in build flexibility. Just my experience with my recent hideless stalker journey. But again, it comes down to your primary/secondary and if you feel comfortable not taking it.

[StriderIV]

5 hours ago, Camelbobsled said:

Honestly, it’s going to boil down to the primary you select. Obviously for certain combinations that have mechanics that utilize Hide (elec/shield) or allow for instant BU (KM) or guaranteed Aoe crit (KM again) hide is a must. For others? A case can be made to skip. I just finished a StJ/Ice and found hide to be largely a waste of a power pick. My final build could have hide or unleash potential, one guess which power I opted for. The benefit of Hide end game is greatly exaggerated as well. Sure it’s nice to stealth missions but SS with a Celerity +Stealth works just fine. The huge Aoe def bonus? Only applies outside of combat, no real point of that. The def of hide when slotted, my typically set up was 2 parts reactive (Def/Res scaling) Shield Wall +res, and a Lotg 7.5%, that adds a whopping 2.5ish…. Nothing spectacular at all to justify a power pick and slots. AS from hide? Sure, the burst dmg is handy but hardly something I’d consider game changing. Now if Hide granted some DDR or something else to warrant it being picked I’d reconsider it. The fact is you can easily get away without picking Hide if your primary/secondary allows it and not grabbing it isn’t gimping yourself by any means, it lets you have more freedom in build flexibility. Just my experience with my recent hideless stalker journey. But again, it comes down to your primary/secondary and if you feel comfortable not taking it.

The reasons you mentioned are why I love my KM/Ice Stalker. Not that it’s OP in anyway, but because it’s two rarely played sets that I feel are really optimized on a Stalker. How do you like your Ice Armor Stalker?

[Camelbobsled]

Ice is hands down my favorite stalker secondary. I've never been a huge fan of set and forget armors so Ice hit that's that nice zone of engagement where I have to be cognizant of what's happening. Every power just works for what I'm trying to accomplish and the fact it's a decently layered secondary means with a little foresight and awareness the likelihood of me eating dirt is nonexistent. I would love for tankers and brutes to get Icy Bastion but fully acknowledge how insane that would be for PvE content. So, for now I'll rock the stj/ice and play it like a front-line bruiser.

[smnolimits43]

so far my claws/sr stalker is only lvl 24 and her name is Mini Mynx.  I love Hide.  It doesn't require energy, and it's useful for speed TFs.  One thing i have noticed, is that once you use Hide for your Critical Strike, you have to wait on Hide to come back up.  Which means your just scrapping anyways.  

[Camelbobsled]

@smnolimits43 It sounds like for your style and build Hide is the perfect fit. I wholeheartedly agree with the points you made and Hide does and can help with what you intend. Ultimately if I had a spare power pick I'd probably take Hide because it can speed up certain aspects of the game. While my build can't speed missions like other stalkers who take hide can, I merely use Celerity + stealth in sprint, I opted to utilize Chilling Embrace to minimize runners, reduce the dmg of enemies in melee, and the frequency in which they attack. One way isn't necessarily better than the other, it's merely what our intended purposes are that differ.  

[PsychicKitty]

well I will always keep hide.

And to answer the question about about needing to wait to be hidden.......Be like me and use the special stalker enhancement set which has a single enhancer that has a chance to hide you right off.  Either that or simply use your placate.

 

My only issue with stalkers on this homecoming version....is that the attacks seam to do less damage as in the original game.   I only notice this because there are way too many times I have hit enemies and low and behold i did not do enough damage to kill them...even when they are supposed to be even level.  And nothing is more annoying then doing a sliver of damage with your first powers while your brawl punch and origin attack does more damage.

I also find it sad now that the black wand and nemesis staff also do more damage then most of the stalker attack powers...shows the damage got lowered a tad bit on some stuff.

 

In addition I noticed some of the power sets for stalkers have a weird glitch...the glitch is that sometimes when you hit......you do nothing at all......as in your get the animation maybe even smack them up or away...but the enemy takes not 1 point of damage....lol

 

Stalker was the archtype i played the most when it got introduced....before they existed i would play an illusion controller or a defender with Invisibility.

 

Have not done it yet....probably should see if it still works......but I used to hate being seen by the stupid rularuu eyes and rikti drones and sniper malta.....i eventualy figured out in the old game that Hide combined with the stealth effect from the run IO and phase shift would let me hide from those encounters. 

 

IN this version though i may need to experiment...as i noticed powers got changed a tad.....and more of them stack....the three powers i mentioned used to stack their stealth though.

[MoonSheep]

i ran a great synapse with @Xiddo earlier in the week on my new elec/shield stalker and kept hide turned off for the vast majority of the TF so i could heard with Against All Odds

 

interestingly, when my chance to hide proc activated it seemed to place me in a permanent hide state until i attacked rather than being time limited

[aethereal]

4 minutes ago, MoonSheep said:

]interestingly, when my chance to hide proc activated it seemed to place me in a permanent hide state until i attacked rather than being time limited

 

idk if it's bugged or anything, but per CoD, it should only last 10.25 seconds.

[Nayeh]

Not taking Hide is perfect for my Stalker's concept: The Visible Man.

[MoonSheep]

11 hours ago, aethereal said:

 

idk if it's bugged or anything, but per CoD, it should only last 10.25 seconds.

 

if that’s what CoD is showing i expect it’s correct, 10 seconds feels like a lifetime when you’re in the heat of battle

[Shocktacular]

I'm confused: If you don't want hide, why not just make a scrapper?

[SaintD]

On 2/26/2023 at 7:58 AM, Shocktacular said:

I'm confused: If you don't want hide, why not just make a scrapper?

 

More controllable criticals and burst damage. Stalkers got so heavily tuned out of a backstab niche using hide that you can just run them as a Scrapper.

 

Your question doesn't even make sense because it goes both ways. Why make a Stalker instead of a Scrapper? Well why make a Scrapper instead of a Stalker?

[Shocktacular]

It just seemed to me like hide vs. no hide was the main difference between the two.  Thank you for your insight.