Kheldian option power picks to replace Nova and Dwarf forms for those that want human only

[avgHuman]

I'm thinking it would be nice to have something similar to how Sentinel Super Reflexes works with Master Brawler vs Practiced Brawler. 

 

For those that like their Tri forms or Bi forms, they can pick their normal shapechange preferences, but for those that want human only, they can choose an alternative power instead. 

 

The Dwarf form option could be something like an auto-power that either provides defense, regen, or increases hp, but spreads out the status protection to other toggles. So choosing either that or the Dwarf Form at the level would lock out choosing the other option later.

 

The Nova form option could be something similar to dual pistols ammo changing that adds different status effects, or damage types to your regular attacks. Of course, choosing that would lock you out of being able to choose Nova form.

 

 

[Rudra]

I have no comment on Kheldians since they are already a massive pile of powers beyond any other AT's power sets, but as far as the Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler bit? The devs have already said that given how much of a headache coding that was, they will not be doing that again.

 

(Edit: Though me being me, I feel the need to point out that throwing a Peacebringer together in Mids to check power availability, I filled every available power slot without ever once touching any pool powers and still skipping the shapeshifting powers. And I still had 1 non-shapeshifting power left from the Peacebringer tree to replace any of the others I grabbed. So you can definitely make a human form only Kheldian.)

Edited August 31, 2023 by Rudra

[avgHuman]

2 minutes ago, Rudra said:

I have no comment on Kheldians since they are already a massive pile of powers beyond any other AT's power sets, but as far as the Master Brawler/Practiced Brawler bit? The devs have already said that given how much of a headache coding that was, they will not be doing that again.

 

Ah, that's fair. A shame, but I understand their reluctance to do that again.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

kheldians do need some love tho, 

they are a bit too much work to be fun imo

[Ghost]

5 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

kheldians do need some love tho, 

they are a bit too much work to be fun imo

They are definitely a lot of work - but also a lot of fun once you settle on a build.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

1 hour ago, Ghost said:

They are definitely a lot of work - but also a lot of fun once you settle on a build.

i actually have an amazing build

crazy expensive

capped just about everything

its just so dang clicky to play its more exhausting than fun (for me)

to each their own. 

No shade

No hate

just not for me.

 

Also just to make it clear, i am not looking for an EZ playstyle

I do enjoy playing dominators (which are also clicky)

 

If Kheldians were easier to play OR stronger than they are

Then the Epic archetypes would actually feel Epic 

instead of a chore

 

 

[Captain Fabulous]

Kheldians can be fun to play, but I agree they are a lot of work and a pain to build for what is ultimately a mediocre performer. The game and the ATs the forms are based upon have evolved, but they haven't.

[biostem]

8 hours ago, avgHuman said:

For those that like their Tri forms or Bi forms, they can pick their normal shapechange preferences, but for those that want human only, they can choose an alternative power instead.

Beyond the complexity issue with "either-or" type powers, as mentioned before, Kheldians get a lot of free powers by taking the forms, with the tradeoff being that they can't get everything at once.  Kheldians are, by intent and design, a "jack of all trades, master of none".  You want to go human-only, fine - there are ways to compensate for the lack of status protection in dwarf form or damage in nova form, especially when you factor in the invention and incarnate systems.

[Greycat]

9 hours ago, avgHuman said:

For those that like their Tri forms or Bi forms, they can pick their normal shapechange preferences, but for those that want human only, they can choose an alternative power instead.

 

 

As mentioned, the devs aren't going to do that again. But going human only already gives you something - you skip the power and have *multiple* slots available to you that you now don't have to allocate piecemeal to either human or form powers. You'll be able to slot the human-only form more completely.

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Then the Epic archetypes would actually feel Epic 

 

As the live devs have always said, they used "Epic" in the sense of "Epic of Gilgamesh" - they are tied to a story, to a piece of the lore. They have their own 1-50 arcs exploring one bit of lore (the Kheldian war) much more in depth. They fulfill that quite well. Traces of what was to be another - the Blood of the Black Stream - lay scattered through enough of the game I'm sure they would have been as well. (The ones for the VEATs... bleh.) And the others they had planned - well, the Coralax certainly have lore that would have been interesting to play through (though there's no sign of the VIrtea, save one unnamed reference in a Striga mission,) the Avilians were abandoned early, unfortunately - again leaving only one reference, this time in an early Hollows mission, and Incarnates were turned from and EAT into the systems we have now. Can't help but wonder if they might have better served as an EAT sometimes...

[Saiyajinzoningen]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

As mentioned, the devs aren't going to do that again. But going human only already gives you something - you skip the power and have *multiple* slots available to you that you now don't have to allocate piecemeal to either human or form powers. You'll be able to slot the human-only form more completely.

 

As the live devs have always said, they used "Epic" in the sense of "Epic of Gilgamesh" - they are tied to a story, to a piece of the lore. They have their own 1-50 arcs exploring one bit of lore (the Kheldian war) much more in depth. They fulfill that quite well. Traces of what was to be another - the Blood of the Black Stream - lay scattered through enough of the game I'm sure they would have been as well. (The ones for the VEATs... bleh.) And the others they had planned - well, the Coralax certainly have lore that would have been interesting to play through (though there's no sign of the VIrtea, save one unnamed reference in a Striga mission,) the Avilians were abandoned early, unfortunately - again leaving only one reference, this time in an early Hollows mission, and Incarnates were turned from and EAT into the systems we have now. Can't help but wonder if they might have better served as an EAT sometimes...

 

semantics, my good sir does no one any favors.

Regardless of how you define epic, they still feel less than that

and at the end of the day no matter how good your story or lore is

if the gameplay is arduous there's an issue.

 

 

[Greycat]

1 hour ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

semantics, my good sir does no one any favors.

Regardless of how you define epic, they still feel less than that

and at the end of the day no matter how good your story or lore is

if the gameplay is arduous there's an issue.

Yes, but words *do* have actual meanings. Yes, sometimes they have multiple meanings. In this case, we do not have to guess which one is meant. We were told exactly what was meant by the "epic" in "Epic archetype" by the people who made them - the devs on live. And they were very specific that it was "epic" in the terms of a story. It doesn't matter if Epic has other meanings. You choosing to use a different one and argue there's some issue with them because they don't (to you) meet the definition *they were not aimed at* just means you're both stubborn and incorrect.

 

They also used a second definition of Epic, after all, in the power pools you get after 41 - they aren't very (your definition) epic, but they fit the (their chosen definition, more like D&D's at one point) devs definition just fine, which is still different from the definition they used for the EATs. (It doesn't help that they waver back and forth between that and "ancillary" power pools.) The definition *they* chose to use at any given time is the correct one for whatever's being talked about.

 

You may not like it - but bluntly, I don't care.  And I don't find them to have "arduous gameplay" in the least. That's 100% a  you thing as well.

[kelika2]

if someone has an upscaled mchugelarge image of the sentinel AT logo now is your only time in human history to use the image

 

until someone else asks for human only khelds

[BrandX]

14 hours ago, avgHuman said:

I'm thinking it would be nice to have something similar to how Sentinel Super Reflexes works with Master Brawler vs Practiced Brawler. 

 

For those that like their Tri forms or Bi forms, they can pick their normal shapechange preferences, but for those that want human only, they can choose an alternative power instead. 

 

The Dwarf form option could be something like an auto-power that either provides defense, regen, or increases hp, but spreads out the status protection to other toggles. So choosing either that or the Dwarf Form at the level would lock out choosing the other option later.

 

The Nova form option could be something similar to dual pistols ammo changing that adds different status effects, or damage types to your regular attacks. Of course, choosing that would lock you out of being able to choose Nova form.

 

 

 

Don't they already tho?  It's power pools.

 

 

[SwitchFade]

Um... If you elect to skip the forms on a kheldian you already DO get something in its place .. any other power you want from your AT or pools.

 

I'm a no vote on giving another power for free by skipping one, as part of any AT.

 

If one decides to go human only, there are already more than enough powers to pick, just like any other AT. Skip one and you get the fun reward of choosing anything else.

[Greycat]

19 hours ago, kelika2 said:

until someone else asks for human only khelds

 

... um...

 

You're aware that's been an option and play style since issue 3, right...

[srmalloy]

19 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I'm a no vote on giving another power for free by skipping one, as part of any AT.

This feels a bit like someone asking for alternate power choices in their primary because their petless MM is gimped too much.

[Psi-bolt]

2 hours ago, Greycat said:

 

... um...

 

You're aware that's been an option and play style since issue 3, right...

I’m pretty sure they were aware, but was suggesting that instead of the OP’s idea for additional power picks the OP instead consider playing a Sentinel.   Which in my opinion is a vastly better idea than ignoring the big selling point of Kheldians.

[kelika2]

19 hours ago, Greycat said:

... um...

You're aware that's been an option and play style since issue 3, right...

ever since their buff in issue 22 or 23 or 24 id say no.  nova form damage just outshines whatever a human can do for damage.  and SC0RE's human Laser Eyes and the other one at level 1 attack working in nova form just pushed it beyond that.

and yeah, like nuzlocke in pokemon or a petless mastermind... its an option to go human only kheld.

 

But vanity is the name of the game for this thread

[UltraAlt]

On 8/31/2023 at 4:29 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

they are a bit too much work to be fun

 

I think they were designed to be intentionally hard to play. I think that is the whole point.

To me, it is a shame how much those who hunt Kheldians have been nerfed. They were part of the challenge.

Kheldians were also built to be a complication.

 

When people say that game isn't challenging enough, they should get sent back in time and made to play a Kheldian before the massive nerfs to their enemies. Heck, they should get sent back in time before there were IOs.

 

This the skank of Kheldians being on teams even a thing any more?

I remember when teams would disband after a Kheldian on the team left because the team would still draw Kheldian foes until a team that had a Kheldian on them disbanded.

[arcane]

Comparing human only kheldians to petless masterminds seems pretty ignorant.

[UltraAlt]

18 hours ago, srmalloy said:

This feels a bit like someone asking for alternate power choices in their primary because their petless MM is gimped too much.

 

When I feel like I need an extra power on my petless demon masterminds ....

 

 

 

... I just visit the P2W vendor (https://homecoming.wiki/wiki/Temporary_Power:_Revolver)

[avgHuman]

I'm amazed people are still commenting and replying to me in this thread. I only made the suggestion because I thought this option would be easier than the coding that would be required to remove the squid and lobster from nova and dwarf forms so you can still look human when using those forms. It of course still may be easier than that way, but still too much of a pain for the devs to consider it a valid option.

 

So since it's already been pointed out to me that my suggestion won't even be considered, that should be the end of this discussion. 

[Rudra]

3 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

On 8/31/2023 at 2:29 AM, Saiyajinzoningen said:

they are a bit too much work to be fun

 

I think they were designed to be intentionally hard to play.

They were. When the Kheldians were introduced as (the only) epic ATs, they weren't designed to be god-tier ATs. Just like when Praetoria was added in Going Rogue, Kheldians were meant to be a challenge for those players that beat the game (got to level 50) and wanted something more difficult to play. So they had enemies introduced that solely hunted them (but would only stop plaguing the team after the Kheldian left if they disbanded) that were an extreme threat to them. So they also had a massive array of powers to choose from and slot, that got even more difficult to manage for slots if you picked the right powers. Their entire purpose was to be a challenge for players.

[Rudra]

2 minutes ago, avgHuman said:

I'm amazed people are still commenting and replying to me in this thread. I only made the suggestion because I thought this option would be easier than the coding that would be required to remove the squid and lobster from nova and dwarf forms so you can still look human when using those forms. It of course still may be easier than that way, but still too much of a pain for the devs to consider it a valid option.

 

So since it's already been pointed out to me that my suggestion won't even be considered, that should be the end of this discussion. 

... things never work that way. When a thread is made, the forum community debates it, goes off into tangents from it, goes back to the original for more debate, and keep going until everyone has had their say. Take it as a compliment. You brought up a subject that people are interested in.

[JasperStone]

Kheldians have three forms.

You choose not to use two and now want something to fill in the gap.

 

Hard no.

You made a choice.

 

I am an ardent TriForm believer.

I have three builds: TriForm , Human/Nova, and Human/Dwarf

All Human Forms complain about lack of  Mez protection - Dwarf form is an instant breakfree, plus an extra self-heal.

Get mezzed in Human and pop into Dwarf...done

Nova also helps speed end recovery. And as a form itself is a free travel power...

 

In Triform six AoE ... six. Once you learn how to cycle through them pretty awesome on a team.

 

I have stepped in a Tank role when it was needed on a team lacking a Tank/Brute

Nova can quickly pick off runners or take out those attacking squishies at range.

 

Kheldians are not complicated. 

I have all my power keys mapped via the options available in the game to three trays. Three.

Plus a few rarely used, but nice have ones, on a fourth.

 

Kheldians are only challenging because of the number of choices available to us.

AND the limited slots. Like all ATs face.