Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[Chris24601]

41 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

The way epic power recharge/end/radius and such are calculated is such a goddamn mess that the only thing following it here really did was nerf some of the good options we had, like dominator sleet and soul drain for corruptors.

 

But, those powers are still some of the only options for said ATs even still. Epic power tuning will continue to be a complete waste of time until this idiotic formula is either changed, or treated like a guideline instead of law.

Is there an actual a reason why the ancillaries shouldn’t just use the normal formulas for powers?

 

If the goal is useful interesting choices the option needs to either supply something so lateral to what an AT can already do to be valuable in that way, or be at least as good as their other power options.

 

Worth noting for the lateral offerings; various melee sets can offer some meaningful debuffs/status effects and even ranged attacks (40’ is enough for runners), so when you’re laying out an Ancillary ranged power for scrappers; taking a look at what they can already do with Claws’ Focus (excellent damage with knockdown), or Kinetics’ Focused Burst (not to mention their 40’ cones) or for status effects, remember that Street Justice can dish the pretty reliable stunning, knockdown and knockup… or Dark’s to-hit debuffs, etc.

 

Similarly, controllers who slot for damage instead of duration (and sets like gravity with Propel) should be considered when deciding what the scale for a useful single target ranged attack you’re offering them would be.

 

Ancillaries need to offer options at least as good as what players can get from the right options in their native sets or what’s even the point of them?

 

And similarly those options of comparison should include things like the P2W (START) powers. The incidental accuracy and recharge set bonuses people get as part of set bonuses if you’re not trying to make every power a proc bomb will be more than enough to turn an origin bonus blackwand into something doing about as much as fully slotted Zapp (in non-snipe mode) with a 95% hit rate vs. most targets and an 8-ish second recharge… with no direct slot investments at all (just taking advantage of the global set bonuses).

Low-level unslottable gap fillers that exist outside the normal power structure shouldn’t be competitive with Ancillary pool powers in my opinion.

 

[Onlyasandwich]

2 hours ago, Sovera said:

HAVE already stated that this is a two pronged pass.

 

I may have missed this element if buried within the thread somewhere.

 

I see in the intro that the normalization is meant to allow a baseline to build on for introducing new pools, and to create fewer obvious "best choices," but nothing about a two pronged pass on powers affected by this sweep. In some of the cases highlighted here, this normalization is having the opposite effect, instead removing the one advantage an otherwise inferior power (Explosive blast in my recent example) had over other options. 

[Vinceq98]

These epic power pools are really a let down. 16 mins and 40 sec recharge for SOul Consumption is just INTING. Are we going to use the power once per log in??? Why even have a recharge at this point . . . Also why does psi mastery suck even more with a 40 sec recharge PSI tornado. Fire Ball does more damage and is 32 sec recharge for controllers and dominators. 

 

Maybe this is them wanting everyone to play a 5th powerpool because Fold Space from a travel pool trumps a lot of these "changes"

[Cheli]

5 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Is there an actual a reason why the ancillaries shouldn’t just use the normal formulas for powers?

.......

Ancillaries need to offer options at least as good as what players can get from the right options in their native sets or what’s even the point of them?

Presumably it's a very outdated viewpoint from the early development of the game that giving a single-target hold or a buildup to an AT that doesn't get it natively endangers making the AT that uses it natively useless. We can all see from the ensuing decade+ of the game's development that giving char to blasters or soul drain to corruptors has not made controllers or scrappers useless. 

 

Not necessarily a bad sentiment to work from, blasters or brutes shouldn't be as good at mezzing stuff as a controller. But giving them char or electrifying fences even with controller numbers ain't gonna do that. 

[Gobbledigook]

I have not checked on the test server as it is down at the moment but are there no new Ancillary pools for Sentinels?

[FupDup]

Just now, Gobbledigook said:

I have not checked on the test server as it is down at the moment but are there no new Ancillary pools for Sentinels?

Nope. 

 

On the bright side, Electric Mastery's damage aura got a nice upgrade (it now has a 10 second DoT after contact). But that's really about the end of what Sents got that was positive. 

[ShadowDreamer]

I think the patch notes might be missing some stuff for Sent pools.  I noticed that Psy Shockwave is different on Test than Live, but I don't see it in the notes anywhere.

Live:

36 damage, 20 sec rech, 15' radius, 16 target cap

 

Test

67 damage, 40 second rech, 15' radius 10 cap

 

the 10 cap isn't too surprising since that brings it in line with the normal Sent caps.  Overall it doesn't really change a whole lot for the build I had it on, but just thought it was a little odd I wasn't seeing anything in the notes.

[Tatterhood]

4 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

I have not checked on the test server as it is down at the moment but are there no new Ancillary pools for Sentinels?

Sentinels had more than everyone else previously.

[macskull]

17 hours ago, Ice Ember said:

The epic nerf to lengthen recharge is, in my guess, to slow down the farming…

No, the adjustments (and the ridiculously long recharge on some of the newly-added powers) are based on a design philosophy that epic/patron powers should somehow be lesser versions of in-set powers. Apparently the way this is implemented is by having longer recharge times and endurance costs.

 

Of course, these penalties don’t really pass the sniff test these days, and the penalties do a great job of making some powers (or entire pools) DOA.

[Gobbledigook]

8 hours ago, ShadowDreamer said:

I think the patch notes might be missing some stuff for Sent pools.  I noticed that Psy Shockwave is different on Test than Live, but I don't see it in the notes anywhere.

Live:

36 damage, 20 sec rech, 15' radius, 16 target cap

 

Test

67 damage, 40 second rech, 15' radius 10 cap

 

the 10 cap isn't too surprising since that brings it in line with the normal Sent caps.  Overall it doesn't really change a whole lot for the build I had it on, but just thought it was a little odd I wasn't seeing anything in the notes.

Nice that it got a damage buff but it lost number of targets, but in keeping with the Sentinel. The extra recharge seems a bit excessive.

 

Frozen aura shows 3 times the damage with same cooldown and number of targets. Yet in the description the damage is much lower. I have not tested it so not sure which is correct but the description is wrong anyway.

 

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If they increase cooldowns too much then Epic pools are mostly useless and the game got a little more boring. I would only take those that are actually useful and make a difference. Sentinels are not really short of attacks and don't need melee attacks with stupidly long cooldowns.

At least Tankers/Brutes/Scrapper/stalker Epic ranged attacks can be fairly useful. Or controller/defender etc Epic armors/CC/damage attacks can be useful also.

 

Why would i take Knockout blow with a 40 seconds recharge over Pulverize or Cremate with a 16 second recharge for example. Yes KB does more damage but the DpA are very similar and Pulverize/cremate can actually be used in a rotation easily.

 

Maybe lower the activation time on Link minds also in line with Mind Link. It is already inferior to ML.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 8 by Gobbledigook

[Gobbledigook]

4 hours ago, macskull said:

No, the adjustments (and the ridiculously long recharge on some of the newly-added powers) are based on a design philosophy that epic/patron powers should somehow be lesser versions of in-set powers. Apparently the way this is implemented is by having longer recharge times and endurance costs.

 

Of course, these penalties don’t really pass the sniff test these days, and the penalties do a great job of making some powers (or entire pools) DOA.

They should change the name of  Epic pool as they do not look very Epic at all.

 

I thought the idea of them was to expand the character build. Tanks for example get some ranged/control attacks they miss and Sentinels some melee attacks etc. But what is the point if the cooldown slapped on them makes them mostly useless.

Edited February 8 by Gobbledigook

[ShadowDreamer]

3 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

Nice that it got a damage buff but it lost number of targets, but in keeping with the Sentinel. The extra recharge seems a bit excessive.

 

Frozen aura shows 3 times the damage with same cooldown and number of targets. Yet in the description the damage is much lower. I have not tested it so not sure which is correct but the description is wrong anyway.

 

If they increase cooldowns too much then Epic pools are mostly useless and the game got a little more boring. I would only take those that are actually useful and make a difference. Sentinels are not really short of attacks and don't need melee attacks with stupidly long cooldowns.

At least Tankers/Brutes/Scrapper/stalker Epic ranged attacks can be fairly useful. Or controller/defender etc Epic armors/CC/damage attacks can be useful also.

 

Why would i take Knockout blow with a 40 seconds recharge over Pulverize or Cremate with a 16 second recharge for example. Yes KB does more damage but the DpA are very similar and Pulverize/cremate can actually be used in a rotation easily.

 

Maybe lower the activation time on Link minds also in line with Mind Link. It is already inferior to ML.

 

 

 

 

I am guessing that the frozen aura numbers are wrong if that is the case, but I haven't check it myself.  I know these numbers make it very similar to the PBAOE in the dark pool.  I think this is also the same cool down as FSC in the fire pool.  That one does more damage, but only has an 10' radius which I found a little frustrating when testing.  I will try and remember to look at ice this evening.  CoD also lists it at ~107 damage, but I know I have seen mistakes in there before.

Edited February 8 by ShadowDreamer

[WindDemon21]

On 2/7/2024 at 12:27 PM, ScarySai said:

The way epic power recharge/end/radius and such are calculated is such a goddamn mess that the only thing following it here really did was nerf some of the good options we had, like dominator sleet and soul drain for corruptors. It should say a lot when the best sets are probably accidents, are fixed, and then are still the best.

 

But, those powers are still some of the only options for said ATs even still. Epic power tuning will continue to be a complete waste of time until this idiotic formula is either changed, or treated like a guideline instead of law.

 

I'm underwhelmed.

Even the "3x" rech makes no sense. AT base effect, the powers should still do what they should do so a 3x tax is a bit absurd and never really made sense. They're there to bring flavor, not to be useless powers. At most a "50%" tax or something, not 300%.

[Ice Ember]

12 hours ago, macskull said:

No, the adjustments (and the ridiculously long recharge on some of the newly-added powers) are based on a design philosophy that epic/patron powers should somehow be lesser versions of in-set powers. Apparently the way this is implemented is by having longer recharge times and endurance costs.

 

Of course, these penalties don’t really pass the sniff test these days, and the penalties do a great job of making some powers (or entire pools) DOA.

 

 

My ... didnt convey my snark about the stupid long recharge times for powers now.  I was poking fun at previous reasons fro power changes and such.

 

I do agree.  Multiple "epic" pools are not worth taking.

 

As another posted, Fold Space is more useful now.  I already had it on multiple characters.  now, I might put it on others too. 

 

I actually have Quicksand on my stone tank for thematic reasons, but I will probably drop it now. 

[KaizenSoze]

Since, the shortened animation change for Arctic Breath got mostly rolled back. It's now only 11% faster than live.

 

Could another power attribute be improved?

[TinyJuggs]

I've been reading a lot, and learning about the "epic" powers. I wonder if the devs could answer a question.

 

What is the intended purpose of them? Plugging in missing parts of an archetype? Are they supposed to be useful powers that save you in a tight spot? 

Are they supposed to be useless powers that simply make up power epic power pools and provide thematic powers?

 

What's the deal?

[Vinceq98]

Some are useless. They present an opportunity cost that cant be denied. Its not like we havent been playing the same damn game for the last 20 years. I dislike the mantra of bringing things down in a PVE game, its US vs Enemies. Why not just bring up underperforming and rarely chosen pools into the desirable realm. Knocking down SLeet or Bonfire or Soul Drain isnt it. 

[Sovera]

Epic powers SHOULD be mirrored powers up to T3 or T4. Not increased CDs or costs or whatever. Someone's build lacks a good AoE? Pick one that has AoE. Someone lacks a ST attack to prop their attack chain? Same.

 

That would be a vast redesign philosophy and loud gnashing of teeth about cottage cheeses or whatever.

[arcane]

45 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

Some are useless. They present an opportunity cost that cant be denied. Its not like we havent been playing the same damn game for the last 20 years. I dislike the mantra of bringing things down in a PVE game, its US vs Enemies. Why not just bring up underperforming and rarely chosen pools into the desirable realm. Knocking down SLeet or Bonfire or Soul Drain isnt it. 

A design philosophy of “always buff, never nerf” will never be viable.

[TinyJuggs]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

A design philosophy of “always buff, never nerf” will never be viable.

 

How does the design philosophy  of "never buff, always nerf" work?

[arcane]

12 minutes ago, TinyJuggs said:

 

How does the design philosophy  of "never buff, always nerf" work?

Don’t know because no one ever advocates for that.
 

Easy to see that the overwhelming majority of CoH changes have been buffs.

[Crimsanotic]

1 hour ago, arcane said:

A design philosophy of “always buff, never nerf” will never be viable.

 

For better or worse, the actual Paragon devs followed this, though.

 

When was the last time they nerfed anything? Issue 6 with ED? Global defense nerf and HO nerfs, as well as any individual powerset nerf I can think of all predate issue 6.

[Uun]

2 hours ago, Vinceq98 said:

Knocking down SLeet

Sleet wasn't knocked down, it was flat out unbalanced and had to be fixed. You think it's appropriate that dominators got the same version of a power in an epic pool that defenders get in their primary? The balancing of Sleet and Freezing Rain by AT was long overdue (and was known to be coming since Tar Patch was balanced a few years ago).

[arcane]

6 minutes ago, Uun said:

Sleet wasn't knocked down, it was flat out unbalanced and had to be fixed. You think it's appropriate that dominators got the same version of a power in an epic pool that defenders get in their primary? The balancing of Sleet and Freezing Rain by AT was long overdue (and was known to be coming since Tar Patch was balanced a few years ago).

And, likewise, I’m not sure it was ever appropriate for Corruptor/Defender Soul Drain to be as good as Scrapper Soul Drain (slightly less buff but 1.5x the radius) or flat out better than Brute Soul Drain.

Edited February 8 by arcane

[Uun]

Just now, arcane said:

And, likewise, I’m not sure it was ever appropriate for Corruptor/Defender Soul Drain to be as good as Scrapper Soul Drain (slightly less buff but 1.5x the radius). 

Agree 100%. I'm perfectly fine with the Soul Mastery version of Soul Drain (which was actually buffed, increasing the target cap from 7 to 10). That said, I think Spirit Drain, the replacement for Soul Drain in Dark Mastery, needs its target cap of 5 buffed to be comparable to Soul Mastery/Soul Drain.