Focused Feedback: Epic / Ancillary Power Pools

[Legion of One]

So, at this point is it the changes to pool/ancillary powers that are extending the beta testing of this update?  Those changes seem to be the most contested and are consequential to all players after all.  I wonder if that part of this update can be sectioned off to allow further testing and review or perhaps even expanding the topic to improving the efficacy and desirability of all pool/ancillary powers?  This could free up the rest of this great update for release.  There has been a lot of talk about what these powers are meant to add to the latter stage progress of a toon in the case of epic/ancillary and the diversification of toons and concepts vis a vis power pools.  A whole substantial update could be devoted to this subject, and longstanding bugaboos (worthless powers, lack of alternate power fx for medicine powers, etc) could be thoroughly examined and tested.

 

Just my two bits, and maybe too late to be helpful.  

[macskull]

14 hours ago, Gobbledigook said:

They should change the name of  Epic pool as they do not look very Epic at all.

They tried to make "ancillary" pool stick but that clearly didn't work out.

 

2 hours ago, Crimsanotic said:

For better or worse, the actual Paragon devs followed this, though.

 

When was the last time they nerfed anything? Issue 6 with ED? Global defense nerf and HO nerfs, as well as any individual powerset nerf I can think of all predate issue 6.

Based on the timeframe in your post, let's see here:

• 2005 post-Issue 6: removed autohit damage from Mud Pots and Hot Feet
• 2006: removed XP rewards from glowies, removed ability to interact with glowies while untouchable, added timer to Dreck mission, removed ability to stack Vengeance, removed animation skipping while running Whirlwind, lowered toggle drop chances for many powers in PvP, removed ability to teleport Traps/Devices trip mines and time bombs, reduced summon level of Fire Imps, reduced Impale range, nerfed Controller epic power damage
• 2007: added rooting to enemy-affecting toggles, reduced Fury gain against AVs, reduced duration of "cage" powers in PvP, made several previously-unresisted regen debuffs into resisted ones, reduced enhancement drop rates as your level goes up, removed ability to slot travel sets into passive movement powers, removed 100% resistance cap against Hamidon damage, changed accuracy set bonuses to modify accuracy instead of tohit, nerfed Longbow/Arachnos heavies in Recluse's Victory, removed XP rewards from Devouring Earth lichens, "standardization" of Blaster T1/T2 attack cast times, removed XP rewards from Stheno eggs
• 2008: removed ability for taunt auras to slot taunt IO sets, removed XP rewards from Rikti portals, removed XP/inf rewards from the "Welcome to Vanguard" flashback arc, reduced Blaster unresisted damage in PvP, reduced +tohit from Geas of the Kind Ones/Force of Nature, removed ability to stack Boost Range, reduced effectiveness of Power Boost, removed ability to boost knockback with Power Boost, removed ability to stack Power Boost, reduced knockback protection value of Acrobatics, reduced XP rewards of high-level Family mobs, raised lieutenant hit points, increased the cast time on Energy Transfer, reduced the stun magnitude on Total Focus, the whole Issue 13 PvP changes thing, etc.
• I could go on but I think you get the point.

[Crimsanotic]

50 minutes ago, macskull said:

They tried to make "ancillary" pool stick but that clearly didn't work out.

 

Based on the timeframe in your post, let's see here:

• 2005 post-Issue 6: removed autohit damage from Mud Pots and Hot Feet
• 2006: removed XP rewards from glowies, removed ability to interact with glowies while untouchable, added timer to Dreck mission, removed ability to stack Vengeance, removed animation skipping while running Whirlwind, lowered toggle drop chances for many powers in PvP, removed ability to teleport Traps/Devices trip mines and time bombs, reduced summon level of Fire Imps, reduced Impale range, nerfed Controller epic power damage
• 2007: added rooting to enemy-affecting toggles, reduced Fury gain against AVs, reduced duration of "cage" powers in PvP, made several previously-unresisted regen debuffs into resisted ones, reduced enhancement drop rates as your level goes up, removed ability to slot travel sets into passive movement powers, removed 100% resistance cap against Hamidon damage, changed accuracy set bonuses to modify accuracy instead of tohit, nerfed Longbow/Arachnos heavies in Recluse's Victory, removed XP rewards from Devouring Earth lichens, "standardization" of Blaster T1/T2 attack cast times, removed XP rewards from Stheno eggs
• 2008: removed ability for taunt auras to slot taunt IO sets, removed XP rewards from Rikti portals, removed XP/inf rewards from the "Welcome to Vanguard" flashback arc, reduced Blaster unresisted damage in PvP, reduced +tohit from Geas of the Kind Ones/Force of Nature, removed ability to stack Boost Range, reduced effectiveness of Power Boost, removed ability to boost knockback with Power Boost, removed ability to stack Power Boost, reduced knockback protection value of Acrobatics, reduced XP rewards of high-level Family mobs, raised lieutenant hit points, increased the cast time on Energy Transfer, reduced the stun magnitude on Total Focus, the whole Issue 13 PvP changes thing, etc.
• I could go on but I think you get the point.

 

I'm aware they nerfed things for PVP and things that reduced XP gain. While I said any I was more specifically referring to ATs or powers. The few nerfs you did list that fits that criteria are all pretty minor, though. Much lower than these epic power changes. You'd also only have 4 more years worth of things before the game shut down, and for three years these are all together fairly small changes. But one thing I thought of that's toward the end of the game was nerfing the Cimeroran lore pets. But anyway.

 

Is there any reason why the brute/tanker version of psionic tornado has a 40s recharge time and not 32 like every other AoE they have access to (sans Ice Storm)? It also costs more end and recharges slower. The 50% chance for knockup is definitely not it being worse than it's competition in literally every other way.

Edited February 9 by Crimsanotic

[Vanden]

56 minutes ago, macskull said:

They tried to make "ancillary" pool stick but that clearly didn't work out.

 

It might have, if they'd made the button in the level up screen to pick one actually say "Ancillary Pool"...

[User]

I'm sad that blaster got passed over for psionic mastery. It would open up many concepts that can't really be done well currently.

[arcane]

12 hours ago, Crimsanotic said:

Is there any reason why the brute/tanker version of psionic tornado has a 40s recharge time and not 32 like every other AoE they have access to (sans Ice Storm)? 

I’m sure it has everything to do with the base power recharging in 20s and not 16s.

[WindDemon21]

14 hours ago, Crimsanotic said:

 

I'm aware they nerfed things for PVP and things that reduced XP gain. While I said any I was more specifically referring to ATs or powers. The few nerfs you did list that fits that criteria are all pretty minor, though. Much lower than these epic power changes. You'd also only have 4 more years worth of things before the game shut down, and for three years these are all together fairly small changes. But one thing I thought of that's toward the end of the game was nerfing the Cimeroran lore pets. But anyway.

 

Is there any reason why the brute/tanker version of psionic tornado has a 40s recharge time and not 32 like every other AoE they have access to (sans Ice Storm)? It also costs more end and recharges slower. The 50% chance for knockup is definitely not it being worse than it's competition in literally every other way.

Which all the downsides are WHY it was at the 20s recharge in the first place and not 32s. It wasn't that they "forgot" to give it a longer recharge, it was the compensation for the slow dot, slower cast time etc. Now it's just super extra bad and even has a smaller radius as well.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Have any of the Homecoming developers ever said why they're sticking with this formula that says that Ancillary powers have to be numerically inferior to primary & secondary powers?

 

Has it ever been explained why Ancillary powers can't be exactly the same as primary & secondary powers?

[Vinceq98]

11 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Have any of the Homecoming developers ever said why they're sticking with this formula that says that Ancillary powers have to be numerically inferior to primary & secondary powers?

 

Has it ever been explained why Ancillary powers can't be exactly the same as primary & secondary powers?

Someone thinks Dominators with Sleet were replacing Cold Defenders/Corrupters from 4star difficulty runs 🤨🤡

 

 

[arcane]

7 minutes ago, Vinceq98 said:

Someone thinks Dominators with Sleet were replacing Cold Defenders/Corrupters from 4star difficulty runs 🤨🤡

 

 

Nobody thinks that. It’s easy to attack a straw man.

[TinyJuggs]

20 hours ago, arcane said:

Don’t know because no one ever advocates for that.
 

Easy to see that the overwhelming majority of CoH changes have been buffs.

 

I can't speak with great knowledge on the buffs and nerfs as I'm just beginning to learn. 

 

But I can speak on general balancing philosophy.  I understand the concept of power creep and the balance issues that can arise from "buffing" every power out there. However, the Homecoming dev team has done a wonderful job of juicing up endgame mobs. So if we take a look at that, wouldn't it make the concept of power creep redundant?

 

If we have improved mobs, wouldn't it be safe to say that we can justifiably buff powers to resemble each other ran than playing a game of carrot and stick by buffing and nerfing a variety of powers ?

 

To me the carrot and stick or "buff and nerf" approach seems outdated and hated by a majority of gamers. You seem to be  in the minority on this issue.

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, TinyJuggs said:

 

I can't speak with great knowledge on the buffs and nerfs as I'm just beginning to learn. 

 

But I can speak on general balancing philosophy.  I understand the concept of power creep and the balance issues that can arise from "buffing" every power out there. However, the Homecoming dev team has done a wonderful job of juicing up endgame mobs. So if we take a look at that, wouldn't it make the concept of power creep redundant?

 

If we have improved mobs, wouldn't it be safe to say that we can justifiably buff powers to resemble each other ran than playing a game of carrot and stick by buffing and nerfing a variety of powers ?

 

To me the carrot and stick or "buff and nerf" approach seems outdated and hated by a majority of gamers. You seem to be  in the minority on this issue.

As I said before in response to your other message to me, I hardly ever advocate for nerfing anything. So I don’t really know what you’re talking about. You seem to have conflated “Nerf Seeds” with “Nerf Everything” as if those statements have anything to do with one another.

[TinyJuggs]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

As I said before in response to your other message to me, I hardly ever advocate for nerfing anything. So I don’t really know what you’re talking about. You seem to have conflated “Nerf Seeds” with “Nerf Everything” as if those statements have anything to do with one another.

 

Nerf everything or one thing. What's the difference? Calling for nerfs because something performs well, is an outdated way of thinking in this day and age. This seems to me like an old way of thinking that came about 20 years ago and seems to have stuck around in modern day gaming. Does this actually fix things in the long term? No, all it does is provide short term fixes and then creates problems in the future by reducing the viability of certain powers.

 

My entire point is that this way of thinking doesn't help fix the game. By calling for a nerf to one power, or another just ruins the enjoyment of the game for certain people. Aren't we here to enjoy playing a game? 

 

If we're revamping and buffing end game mobs, why can't we pursue a new approach to buffing and nerfing, by bringing other playstyles up to par, rather than nerfing others. 

[arcane]

3 minutes ago, TinyJuggs said:

 

Nerf everything or one thing. What's the difference? Calling for nerfs because something performs well, is an outdated way of thinking in this day and age. This seems to me like an old way of thinking that came about 20 years ago and seems to have stuck around in modern day gaming. Does this actually fix things in the long term? No, all it does is provide short term fixes and then creates problems in the future by reducing the viability of certain powers.

 

My entire point is that this way of thinking doesn't help fix the game. By calling for a nerf to one power, or another just ruins the enjoyment of the game for certain people. Aren't we here to enjoy playing a game? 

 

If we're revamping and buffing end game mobs, why can't we pursue a new approach to buffing and nerfing, by bringing other playstyles up to par, rather than nerfing others. 

1) “What’s the difference between nerf one thing and nerf everything?” Surely I don’t need to answer this.

 

2) A policy of “never nerf anything ever” actually working strikes me as being about as realistic as a communist utopia ever happening.

 

3) They buffed end game mobs to increase the difficulty of the game - not to justify a wave of buffs that would make that difficulty increase a wash.

[PeregrineFalcon]

54 minutes ago, TinyJuggs said:

Nerf everything or one thing. What's the difference? Calling for nerfs because something performs well, is an outdated way of thinking in this day and age.

Do you wear pants? Why? People have been doing that for centuries. You should stop wearing pants to work. Wearing pants is outdated in this day and age.

 

Yeah, see how silly that sounds? Just because something was done a hundred years ago doesn't mean that it's automatically wrong.

 

If a power is vastly OP compared to everything else then it should be nerfed. The alternative, which is to buff every enemy and power in game to compensate is 1,000 times the work for the same result.

 

That doesn't mean that I think that all nerfs are correct or justified, nor does it mean that I think everything should be nerfed (gotta get those disclaimers in because you internet folks love to deliberately strawman people's arguments) but it does mean that sometimes stuff does have to be nerfed.

[Gobbledigook]

I don't get why some of the powers have to be near or at double the recharge of the primary. It is too much and they will not get used. I am already selective of what epic powers i take and quite a few of them are not even worth the slot, so i already skip them on live.

 

I will not take an attack that has a 40 second recharge that can be used once in a while and that has reduced range on a ranged damage class that already has many good attacks for example. Why would i? so i can hit a Pylon and post my Pylon time lol? because it is a waste of a slot in actuall play.

 

The whole epic/ancillary powers need a separate look at in the near future.

 

What are they for?

[BrandX]

6 hours ago, User said:

I'm sad that blaster got passed over for psionic mastery. It would open up many concepts that can't really be done well currently.

 

I'm sure it's a matter of leaving something for next time. 🙂

[scottocamp]

If a couple of epic powers (like sleet) need to be adjusted downward - have at it.

 

But what is the justification to balance downward powers that few if any players make use of now?  

 

Shouldn't balancing imply that you also enhance the powers that are under-utilized while diminishing the powers that are over-utilized?

 

Making unappealing powers even less appealing seems like a lot of effort without any benefit to the game.

 

 

[Kaika]

So the more I mess with a Ice mastery on stalker the more I realize it is REALLY held back by Frigid wind, as it makes the set just Mu but worse.

 

Both Mu and Ice have almost the same layout

 

ranged attack

Snipe

AoE

Utility

Pet

 

While Electric Shackles and shiver are different powers, I doubt anyone is diving into the sets for those powers (I honestly think Shackles is better anyways)

 

The real difference is Ball Lightning and Frigid wind... and its not good

 

To compare:

 

Ball Lightning                             

• 16 Target Max
• 15 Foot Radius
• 80 Foot Range
• Target AoE
• 32 Second recharge
• 10.20 DPA (At lvl1)
• 18.92 End cost
• LVL38
• End drain

 

 

Frigid Wind

• 10 Target Max
• 30 Degree Arc
• 40 Foot Range
• Ranged Cone
• 36 second recharge
• 10.03 DPA (at lvl1)
• 21.06 end cost
• LV41
• Slow

 

 

Unless you are the worlds biggest slow fan, I don't see how this would make people want to pick up the set outside of RP reasons, or not going past the snipe. From the start a ranged cone is just a awful choice on a melee AT like stalker, as it basically NEEDS to be used from range to be effective. I'm aware energy mastery has energy torrent which is IMO even worse, but at the very least that pool comes with alot of unique self buff powers that can really make it tempting to take regardless. Ice mastery has nothing like this, the only thing really notable that it gets to separate it from Mu (outside of theme) is shiver, which is hardly worth taking the set itself for. At the moment though Frigid wind just feels like it holds the set back so much that I won't even be taking it on my ice stalker, which is a shame because I really wanted too.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you could do here outside of entirely reworking the power, even if you made the stats equivalent to ball lightning across the board, just the fact it's a ranged cone would hold it back. Maybe make the cone MUCH larger, so it can still be used in melee and make the rest of the stats line up the same. The animation is large enough to support a bigger cone without having to change it, in-fact it looks like it should be bigger.

Edited February 10 by Riot Siren

[BrandX]

25 minutes ago, Riot Siren said:

So the more I mess with a Ice mastery on stalker the more I realize it is REALLY held back by Frigid wind, as it makes the set just Mu but worse.

 

Both Mu and Ice have almost the same layout

 

ranged attack

Snipe

AoE

Utility

Pet

 

While Electric Shackles and shiver are different powers, I doubt anyone is diving into the sets for those powers (I honestly think Shackles is better anyways)

 

The real difference is Ball Lightning and Frigid wind... and its not good

 

To compare:

 

Ball Lightning                             

• 16 Target Max
• 15 Foot Radius
• 80 Foot Range
• Target AoE
• 32 Second recharge
• 10.20 DPA (At lvl1)
• 18.92 End cost
• LVL38
• End drain

 

 

Frigid Wind

• 10 Target Max
• 30 Degree Arc
• 40 Foot Range
• Ranged Cone
• 36 second recharge
• 10.03 DPA (at lvl1)
• 21.06 end cost
• LV41
• Slow

 

 

Unless you are the worlds biggest slow fan, I don't see how this would make people want to pick up the set outside of RP reasons, or not going past the snipe. From the start a ranged cone is just a awful choice on a melee AT like stalker, as it basically NEEDS to be used from range to be effective. I'm aware energy mastery has energy torrent which is IMO even worse, but at the very least that pool comes with alot of unique self buff powers that can really make it tempting to take regardless. Ice mastery has nothing like this, the only thing really notable that it gets to separate it from Mu (outside of theme) is shiver, which is hardly worth taking the set itself for. At the moment though Frigid wind just feels like it holds the set back so much that I won't even be taking it on my ice stalker, which is a shame because I really wanted too.

 

I'm not entirely sure what you could do here outside of entirely reworking the power, even if you made the stats equivalent to ball lightning across the board, just the fact it's a ranged cone would hold it back. Maybe make the cone MUCH larger, so it can still be used in melee and make the rest of the stats line up the same. The animation is large enough to support a bigger cone without having to change it, in-fact it looks like it should be bigger.

 

Tried the Ice Epic, didn't like it having two cones.  Thought one cone could be replaced by Ice Cage.

[Crimsanotic]

11 hours ago, arcane said:

I’m sure it has everything to do with the base power recharging in 20s and not 16s.

 

Well then by that logic it should also do more damage than it currently does as the blast version of psionic tornado does more damage than the AoEs that recharge in 16s. But right now it does less damage and recharges slower.

[VashNKnives]

11 hours ago, Riot Siren said:

I'm not entirely sure what you could do here outside of entirely reworking the power, even if you made the stats equivalent to ball lightning across the board, just the fact it's a ranged cone would hold it back. Maybe make the cone MUCH larger, so it can still be used in melee and make the rest of the stats line up the same. The animation is large enough to support a bigger cone without having to change it, in-fact it looks like it should be bigger.

Agreed, narrow cones on melee are a real buzz kill when you end up hitting like a quarter or less of a spawn. I don't see too many people taking the cone judgement attacks (vorpal? and cryonic?) over the others. I have done it for theme but it isn't cool always knowing that you are underperforming just because of aesthetics.

Edited February 10 by VashNKnives

[Carnifax]

On 2/8/2024 at 11:38 PM, Uun said:

Agree 100%. I'm perfectly fine with the Soul Mastery version of Soul Drain (which was actually buffed, increasing the target cap from 7 to 10). That said, I think Spirit Drain, the replacement for Soul Drain in Dark Mastery, needs its target cap of 5 buffed to be comparable to Soul Mastery/Soul Drain.

Yep, as an abuser of Soul Drain I knew this was coming too. Only irk is I'll need to reslot it cos the Oblit set bonuses don't work post change. 

 

[BrandX]

3 hours ago, Carnifax said:

Yep, as an abuser of Soul Drain I knew this was coming too. Only irk is I'll need to reslot it cos the Oblit set bonuses don't work post change. 

 

 

Oh?  I thought the bonuses and enhancements all worked until you respec it out.

[Carnifax]

17 minutes ago, BrandX said:

 

Oh?  I thought the bonuses and enhancements all worked until you respec it out.

Nope, I tested and reported the fact I'm losing the set bonuses earlier in this thread. Slotting might stick but set bonuses are definitely lost.