Focused Feedback: Role Diversity Bonus

[ranagrande]

1 hour ago, Reiska said:

 

If the primary goal is to influence the way players form teams, I think it will be reasonably successful at doing so, but I question if that is something we *want* to do and I agree with some of the other voices around here that it would make me less excited about attempting to team with people in general.

I think this is clearly the primary goal, based on this response earlier in the thread:

 

On 1/22/2024 at 11:57 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

Disagree, that is not an alternative suggestion because it does not achieve the same goal. ATs are not roles.

Simply bringing 5 different ATs does not promote healthier team composition balance because all five could technically be the same one or two roles.

 

And I do not believe that this is a goal that should be pursued.  Role balance is not important for general teaming in this game and should not be incentivized.

 

Especially not with a list that ignores most roles filled by most non-epic ATs.

[PancakeGnome]

8 hours ago, Koopak said:

Even at a casual glance here we can see the TOUGHEST a Defender can become is ~34% the durability of a Tanker with the minimum max hp under similar conditions and ~18% of an hp capped Tanker.

Okay I think that clarifies that NO a Defender is not equal to a Tanker.

haha, that's really funny. It reminds me of when I teamed up with this tanker on my TF who was super proud of his extreme HP. Anyway, after he and the brute and rest of the team died.... I jumped into the middle of that 5th column army in the Aeon TF and solo bodied the entire thing while everyone watched with their mouths open lol. 

 

I'm sure they thought "NO a defender is not equal to a tanker" before also.

Is a very very very very high end tanker stronger than me? Yea! But I'm stronger than 80%+ of tankers..... Because CoH isn't about black or white. It's about different levels of capabilities rolled into a single character.

Here, notice how this chart isn't just "how much support is your defender". Instead it's ALL OF THE CATEGORIES, and my character has different strengths in all of the categories. But the "AT's only have one role" people are completely ignoring this reality of CoH.....

Like this is where I would put my defender. 

AMAZING control, really good defense.... passable damage.... and mid level support. Basically I'm a tanker + controller that can survive long enough to completely shut down huge masses of mobs. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "no no, your main role is support!! you are primarily support because you are defender!!" is crazy.

I would challenge ANY controller in their ability to control. Because defender electric is THE BEST draining set in the game (and even giant monsters can get shut down permanently with drains, but it takes 2 or 3 electric users to do it).

 

That's the thing... you are looking at "hold times" and "hp totals" and trying to extrapolate that to the entire capabilities of an AT. THAT ISN'T HOW THE GAME WORKS. 
 

[PancakeGnome]

4 hours ago, gameboy1234 said:

 

Just as an aside, if this feature gets removed, another way to add Inf and items for new players is to just dump them on players during one of the intro missions.  For example, Manticore could show up at the end of Twinshot's first arc and say "I'm rich AF, here's a Prismatic Aether."  I don't think this is valuable enough to make the arc feel mandatory but it would help out new players who will often be the one's to run that arc.

 

 

Oh yea, prismatics as rewards for doing some less done arcs would be neat! Make it so everyone on the final mission team gets one.

Rewarding people for playing more of the game content and engaging with the story is a lot better than trying to force them to form "holy trinity" groups. 

[Wravis]

1 hour ago, PancakeGnome said:

haha, that's really funny. It reminds me of when I teamed up with this tanker on my TF who was super proud of his extreme HP. Anyway, after he and the brute and rest of the team died.... I jumped into the middle of that 5th column army in the Aeon TF and solo bodied the entire thing while everyone watched with their mouths open lol. 

 

I'm sure they thought "NO a defender is not equal to a tanker" before also.

Is a very very very very high end tanker stronger than me? Yea! But I'm stronger than 80%+ of tankers..... Because CoH isn't about black or white. It's about different levels of capabilities rolled into a single character.

Here, notice how this chart isn't just "how much support is your defender". Instead it's ALL OF THE CATEGORIES, and my character has different strengths in all of the categories. But the "AT's only have one role" people are completely ignoring this reality of CoH.....

Like this is where I would put my defender. 

AMAZING control, really good defense.... passable damage.... and mid level support. Basically I'm a tanker + controller that can survive long enough to completely shut down huge masses of mobs. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going "no no, your main role is support!! you are primarily support because you are defender!!" is crazy.

I would challenge ANY controller in their ability to control. Because defender electric is THE BEST draining set in the game (and even giant monsters can get shut down permanently with drains, but it takes 2 or 3 electric users to do it).

 

That's the thing... you are looking at "hold times" and "hp totals" and trying to extrapolate that to the entire capabilities of an AT. THAT ISN'T HOW THE GAME WORKS. 
 

Or you could think of it as:

"What does this AT do better than other ATs with the same or similar powersets? Do other ATs even have powersets in this category?"

A defender will out-support a blaster, even though they both have blast powers. Because defenders have powersets built for support.
Controllers and dominators have full powersets for control. Defenders only control via specific powerset and power choices.
A sentinel does nothing better than anyone.

Excluding your niche defender build, a tanker will generally out-tank a defender. A controller will generally out-control a defender. Because they have powersets and stats built for those things.

[PancakeGnome]

46 minutes ago, Wravis said:

"What does this AT do better than other ATs with the same or similar powersets? Do other ATs even have powersets in this category?"
 

When you make a group with people.... you don't invite an average of what that AT's primary power pools on average perform compared to other powersets. 

You are teaming with an individual hero with their own build and own powers that perform WILDLY different depending on how that person has built their character..... 

 

Quote

A defender will out-support a blaster, even though they both have blast powers. Because defenders have powersets built for support.

No. Again, we are dealing with INDIVIDUALS, not averages. Especially for people more familiar with the game and mechanics that design interesting characters that go beyond "tanker just absorbs damage but doesn't deal any damage" type of thinking. 

 

Quote

Excluding your niche defender build

There are a billion "niche" builds.... that is what City of Heroes is about. That's why the game lets you pick your powers, and has power pools, and advanced power pool and incarnate system and invention system...... 

If this delusional "ATs are one role" type of mentality is to be pushed on new players, then just do it when they are under level 20 or something. Leave the rest of us out of it. 

This thread has actually proven there is a HUGE problem that this sort of "archetype trinity" thinking is actually more prevalent in the community, and a lot of people are stuck thinking "a defender can't tank, lol, they are support". If anything, we need a system that rewards people for playing their ATs in different ways than they might first imagine. Because it seems like so many people are missing out on a really unique / interesting part of City of Heroes. 

Ever since people discovered blappers and were like "wait, blasters can actually melee and survive AND do damage?!".... then people discovered tankers can actually dish out crazy damage.... and then people discovered defenders can tank and control.... and so on and so on. 

This isn't "niche". This is city of heroes. 

[Wravis]

7 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

When you make a group with people.... you don't invite an average of what that AT's primary power pools on average perform compared to other powersets. 

You are teaming with an individual hero with their own build and own powers that perform WILDLY different depending on how that person has built their character..... 

 

No. Again, we are dealing with INDIVIDUALS, not averages. Especially for people more familiar with the game and mechanics that design interesting characters that go beyond "tanker just absorbs damage but doesn't deal any damage" type of thinking. 

 

There are a billion "niche" builds.... that is what City of Heroes is about. That's why the game lets you pick your powers, and has power pools, and advanced power pool and incarnate system and invention system...... 

If this delusional "ATs are one role" type of mentality is to be pushed on new players, then just do it when they are under level 20 or something. Leave the rest of us out of it. 

This thread has actually proven there is a HUGE problem that this sort of "archetype trinity" thinking is actually more prevalent in the community, and a lot of people are stuck thinking "a defender can't tank, lol, they are support". If anything, we need a system that rewards people for playing their ATs in different ways than they might first imagine. Because it seems like so many people are missing out on a really unique / interesting part of City of Heroes. 

Ever since people discovered blappers and were like "wait, blasters can actually melee and survive AND do damage?!".... then people discovered tankers can actually dish out crazy damage.... and then people discovered defenders can tank and control.... and so on and so on. 

This isn't "niche". This is city of heroes. 

Good points.

[Andreah]

34 minutes ago, PancakeGnome said:

When you make a group with people.... you don't invite an average of what that AT's primary power pools on average perform compared to other powersets. 

You are teaming with an individual hero with their own build and own powers that perform WILDLY different depending on how that person has built their character..... 

 

No. Again, we are dealing with INDIVIDUALS, not averages. Especially for people more familiar with the game and mechanics that design interesting characters that go beyond "tanker just absorbs damage but doesn't deal any damage" type of thinking. 

 

There are a billion "niche" builds.... that is what City of Heroes is about. That's why the game lets you pick your powers, and has power pools, and advanced power pool and incarnate system and invention system...... 

If this delusional "ATs are one role" type of mentality is to be pushed on new players, then just do it when they are under level 20 or something. Leave the rest of us out of it. 

This thread has actually proven there is a HUGE problem that this sort of "archetype trinity" thinking is actually more prevalent in the community, and a lot of people are stuck thinking "a defender can't tank, lol, they are support". If anything, we need a system that rewards people for playing their ATs in different ways than they might first imagine. Because it seems like so many people are missing out on a really unique / interesting part of City of Heroes. 

Ever since people discovered blappers and were like "wait, blasters can actually melee and survive AND do damage?!".... then people discovered tankers can actually dish out crazy damage.... and then people discovered defenders can tank and control.... and so on and so on. 

This isn't "niche". This is city of heroes. 

I have been struggling to get this across, and you have hit it right on target. 

 

The most tanky controller may not be able to tank as well as the best tanker, but certainly better that the lowest level tanker, and least kitted out tanker, or the worst-played tankers. On any given team, that controller might be doing the tanker role masterfully -- and on the next team, they may not be tanking at all.

 

Not only is it build and player dependent, it's also situational and can't be assigned correctly in advance from the AT alone.

 

I still maintain that building a diverse team is already well rewarded, and does not need this artificial system tacked on top. If we need more Prismatics in the economy, just give them out for other good reasons, not this bad reason.

[Marbing]

3 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

haha, that's really funny. It reminds me of when I teamed up with this tanker on my TF who was super proud of his extreme HP. Anyway, after he and the brute and rest of the team died.... I jumped into the middle of that 5th column army in the Aeon TF and solo bodied the entire thing while everyone watched with their mouths open lol. 

This sounds to me like a team that may have been lacking in strategy or decent support to help keep people alive. There are any number of reasons a team will wipe: bad luck, bad strategy, poor team synergy, poor teamwork, no communication, too many toons with poor slotting, etc etc. Sounds like you have a decent Defender though, so kudos, I bet it is a fun toon to play!

 

 

3 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

Is a very very very very high end tanker stronger than me? Yea! But I'm stronger than 80%+ of tankers..... Because CoH isn't about black or white. It's about different levels of capabilities rolled into a single character.

Tanking isn't just about soaking up damage. Keep that in mind. @Koopak pointed out more than just the toughness to make this distinction, something to consider. 

 

 

3 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

That's the thing... you are looking at "hold times" and "hp totals" and trying to extrapolate that to the entire capabilities of an AT. THAT ISN'T HOW THE GAME WORKS. 

He wasn't doing this at all. To be clear he was pointing out how these ATs were built by the original devs. They all have specific scalars and indexes that allow them to thrive in different roles. To your point it doesn't mean they HAVE to fill those roles, but it is where they are going to have an advantage compared to other ATs. Also, this change doesn't mean a Defender on the team MUST be support. No where in the change does it say that anywhere. It just says they would count towards the "support" category in the event you are going for that extra 1 PA per day. You can bring your Defender and tank/dps/control all you want, but the bonus will have them filling the slot of support. That is all. It doesn't tell you how to play it. The character creation screen literally lists Defender as support. New players are already seeing this when they create their first characters. The original devs specifically designed Defenders to be really good at support. Hence all their support indexes being super high. Does that mean the game doesn't allow you to use your Defender in other ways? No, of course not, I believe the majority of us agree with you and others on that point. I have plenty of Tanky Corruptors that have no issues soloing +4/x8 content. I also have several Blappers that are tanky as well. But I also have Tanks, and they are much better at actual tanking (and aggro management) than my Corruptors or my Blasters. Why? Because that is how they are built. I leaned into the AT's strengths. Their high HP, their higher res caps, their higher threat, their inherent that is built for more aggro, their Taunt power in their secondary powerset, etc etc. Tankers are literally designed from head to toe to Tank. But, guess what? I also have a DPS Tank, who is less effective as a traditional Tank but does some pretty decent AoE DPS and he does just fine as well. If I joined a team with that Tank, under this current suggested change, he would fill the "role" of tank for the purposes of the bonus... but it wouldn't change how I play him. 
 

 

This being said, as I have said before, if this change does go through it would be better implemented if AT's filled the roles represented on the character creation screen. You could set it up in a way that would still require 5 different roles from 5 different AT's, which would still serve the purpose of role diversity, it would just be more consistent with what we see from the start of character creation and be a little easier to fill a team out and still get the bonus. 

Anyways I have probably responded on this particular thread more than necessary and more than I originally wanted, haha. I have made all the points that I felt needed to be made. I'll leave this be for now and see how this develops as Open Beta moves forward. 

 

[PancakeGnome]

25 minutes ago, Andreah said:

The most tanky controller may not be able to tank as well as the best tanker,

Or they just do it differently. Like an illusion controller that has a perma phantom army. Those things are the ultimate tanks, they taunt AND there are 3 of them (so can hold a higher agro cap). I've had many many groups where I summoned them to tank things like 2 AVs no problem, while the tank just couldn't survive at all. 

That's why the game is so fun, because there are so many different ways to contribute in different scenarios. And that's why so many people have alt-itis... because we love making new characters and trying out interesting new combos and seeing what else is out there.

Like "Hmmmm, what about a RANGED SCRAPPER?! Using claws?!" 

Or "Hmmm, what about a controller blaster? that just mega focuses on cold and shuts down the recharge of everything while sacrificing their damage?!". 

or... "What about a peacebringer that ignores the forms, goes 100% human and medicine pool to boost their healing up to empath levels?!". 

or "Ok, a defender...but they maximize the knockback! Forcefields + energy blasts for perma positioning control and knockdowns. Force bomb + repulsion bolt + repulsion field.... then everything slotted to corner massive groups of mobs and keep them flopping. They can power boost their defender level knockbacks to even flop giant monsters!!!! Nova having over 45 knockback value!"

The crazy stuff this game allows is really fun to mess with.

[PancakeGnome]

8 minutes ago, Marbing said:

He wasn't doing this at all. To be clear he was pointing out how these ATs were built by the original devs.

The original devs also had the "rule of three"... where a single character shouldn't be able to take down more than 3 even matched mobs solo. They never imagined +4/8 solo, that would have blown their minds.

[Indystruck]

4 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

That's the thing... you are looking at "hold times" and "hp totals" and trying to extrapolate that to the entire capabilities of an AT. THAT ISN'T HOW THE GAME WORKS. 

 

That data is actually explicitly how the game works.

[BrandX]

4 hours ago, PancakeGnome said:

Oh yea, prismatics as rewards for doing some less done arcs would be neat! Make it so everyone on the final mission team gets one.

Rewarding people for playing more of the game content and engaging with the story is a lot better than trying to force them to form "holy trinity" groups. 

 

This doesn't really force them to form "holy trinity" groups.  The rewards are there if it happens, and sure one forming the team could force the issue, but I'd say that's gonna be as often as it's done now (I've seen those who still prefer to do that without the diversity bonus).

[PeregrineFalcon]

On 1/22/2024 at 7:49 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

If you've got alternative suggestions on any names that communicate the bonus's goal and function, I'd love to hear them!

The name can be changed effortlessly, it's a single string to adjust; If somebody has a better sounding idea, please let me know. 🙂

Team Balance Bonus is my suggestion.

[Koopak]

I'm just going to add one last thing that i feel has been overlooked. A huge amount of the argument against these roles is centered around the idea that you can fill different roles with the same AT with clever builds and play. This is repeatedly held up as somehow unique to City of Heroes, lets clarify something since i know a large portion of this player base doesn't have a lot of experience in other games, let alone other MMOs. City of Heroes is not 'unique' because you can do off meta rolls with its equivalent to classes.

My Rogue in World of Warcraft has successfully taken over tanking when a traditional tank class has died, and through good play and clever building of gear and talents, I was able to stay up, keep aggro, and save the team a wipe. I ask you, does this make my rogue a tank class? NO, its a melee dps with some durability tools.

My Red Mage in Final Fantasy XIV has successfully prevented entire raids of people from wiping by taking over healing the tank and rapid fire rezing the rest of the raid. Does this make my Red Mage a support? NO, its a ranged dps with some support tools

So why then, does the fact my Stalker who I cleverly built to abuse knock back powers in Psi Melee and Force of Will and the fear of AS with Invoke Panic supposedly count as Control? It doesn't. It makes it a melee dps with some control tools.

And neither would I want it to. The fact that I have accomplished these things with ATs and Classes not meant to do them is a point of great pride. However that pride is predicated upon my knowledge that performing these roles with these ATs and Classes is disproportionately hard, that it is NOT the designed intent.

Thus I posit that this role system introduced in the Diversity Bonus in fact ENHANCES the experience of building and playing off meta while also steering new players TOWARD success.

Because I sincerely hope no one thinks it is EASIER to Control on a Defender than on a Controller or Dominator. The fact you CAN, however poorly, is a point of player pride, pride that goes away when you try to make this special ability normal. It is the assumption of this series of roles, which inherent encourages safe, reliable play, that allows unique experiences like the one @PancakeGnome so proudly shared with us here.

Edited January 27 by Koopak

[Chaos Ex Machina]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:15 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

So let me explain the reasoning behind this free bonus:
In most MMOs on the market, they function with the holy trinity of Tank / DPS / Healer. However, City of Heroes does not function this way, and rather has a more diverse set of roles that players take while playing on a team together.

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles, and then giving a small reward to teams that are inclusive and bring every type of player role. Perhaps the name of the reward should be changed to 'Role Inclusivity Bonus'?

 

From experience, chasing rewards can oftentimes work better than tutorials for guiding players to more natural success in their gameplay, so that's why this was decided.

 

Lastly, it puts a little more Prismatic Aether into everyone's pocket for minimal effort, which helps new players by virtue of being able to convert it to influence on the AH which also stimulates the player economy and also teaches new players to utilize the AH while working on their characters.
For a new player, a single Prismatic Aether could potentially fund their entire build on SO enhancements; Extremely valuable for somebody just starting out.

FAQ:

• The roles were chosen so that the full classic team of all five Hero or Villain archetypes would complete the free bonus; This is reflected in the challenge icon.
• One role per AT for simplicity & fairness; There are too many ATs that would count for more and others that would count for less.
• Epic ATs count for three roles because their inherent powers all deal with teams, so this makes them extremely appealing for team invites and is in-line with their design goal.
• Corruptors are listed as Damage because their Inherent power, Scourge, only deals with doing more damage, not support.
• This free bonus was not in any way an attempt to sway or influence Advanced Mode team compositions; This free bonus reward is far too low to have any kind of impact on regular runners of that content.
• This free bonus is not an attempt to disrupt the City of Heroes element of 'any team can work', because while that's always been true...
  'any team can work well' has never been a guarantee and there have been plenty of teams I've joined that have been rough experiences because the composition just wasn't considered while forming the team. While lopsided teams can always work, they shouldn't be considered the ideal or baseline experience to strive for giving our new players.

 

Now that I read the purpose behind this it actually seems counterproductive

 

Newbies probably will not recognize the value of the prismatic before the point they understand how archetypes work

 

Archetypes get explained right there on the character creation screen and explained fairly well

 

The archetype screen ALSO tells the newbie that archetypes fill multiple roles

 

This actually seems contradictory with the archetype screen and may create confusion instead

 

Never mind that a newbie probably does not already understand the market and current prices of loot

 

The prismatic stuff is pretty secondary cosmetic veteran stuff too

 

Most of the prismatic store is costumes of lore that will be totally pointless for them

Edited January 27 by Chaos Ex Machina

[GM_GooglyMoogly]

Once again, I am sorry to have to hide your posts.

 

But this is a Focused Feedback Thread, not an argument about tankfenders thread.  Y'all can start such a thread or another thread to debate.

 

[timpanda]

I was excited when I first heard about this before the reward was announced. I'm one of those players with hundreds of characters, and I'm always interested in dusting off an old concept and revitalizing a "forgotten" character, bringing something relatively uncommon to the group. This reward just doesn't seem worth making new toons or new builds, which is what I had started to do in preparation. I'm not blaming anyone for my expectations or actions, and honestly I'm not sure what I was expecting. To put a positive spin on it, I can now strip down those Defenders and use their enhancements on toons I'd actually have fun playing. Prismatics are cheap enough that most people I play with regularly could just buy one for the whole team if that became a deciding factor. And I can keep joining Mastermind Mondays without feeling like I'm missing anything. I honestly hope some people enjoy it, but this won't have an effect on how I or anyone I know plays the game. Which is fine.

[Rimerat]

I'm a fan of diverse teams but I'm not sure I'm a fan of Homecoming COH trying to emulate more mainstream MMOs.

 

I don't think this will be doomsday or anything close to it. I think it's a pretty small change.

 

I do know it will effect how myself and other team leaders out there fill out our teams.

 

Please don't forget that some of the things that make City of Heroes unique and some times unappealing to more conventional MMO players are also the things that have given it such a devoted following.

 

I'm on the fence on this one and think we'll have to see how it plays out; I hope the team will consider making adjustments or outright ditching it if it makes the social/teaming aspect of the game significantly less appealing.

[warlyx]

ok back to the roots

 

Quote

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles

 

what about changing the character creation descriptions ? or thats unable to be changed? the bar with support ,melee , ranged , tank , control....and the like

[Psi-bolt]

I've already commented on how I think this will affect teaming, but I wanted to make another comment.  The reward requires having an Tank, Melee damage dealer, Ranged damage dealer, Support and Control.  The stated reason is to help newer players create better teams.  But simply put, there's literally no need in this game to ensure that all five of those roles are represented in the vast majority (if not all) task forces.  

 

If anything, the "holy trinity" of a tank, DPS (whether ranged or melee), Support is all that's even worth ensuring you have.  There are encounters where that grouping makes sense.  But even then with 1-2 experienced players (not strange in a 20 year old game), it's not necessary.  Mono-AT teams regularly do very well.  

 

I don't like this idea because it's fixing a non-existent problem.  Any team of well played and well built characters can handle the vast majority of content.  It would be better to train newer players on how to build their character and ensure that they don't skip hallmarks of their AT or powerset.  That would go much further IMO to solving the issue that Cobalt Arachne posits.

[PancakeGnome]

11 hours ago, GM_GooglyMoogly said:

Once again, I am sorry to have to hide your posts.

 

But this is a Focused Feedback Thread, not an argument about tankfenders thread.  Y'all can start such a thread or another thread to debate.

 

Oh ya, I was just using it an example of how the "ATs are just a set role" isn't how CoH works.

Kind of like someone arguing "mammals don't fly", and me going "you heard of bats tho?" and then you go "this isn't a conversation about bats". Hehe. 

[Dispari]

If the stated goal is to help new players make better decisions when forming teams then it's actually teaching them wrong (as a joke!) by having several ATs listed as something they aren't. Maybe it started with noble intentions but it's clear several ATs were crammed into ill-fitting spaces just so there could be approximately balanced categories, which is simply not the way the game works. And what's the point of having people memorize a new system with its own nonsensical rules for exactly one application?

I will say again that just asking people to bring a variety of different ATs is infinitely easier to understand and do without anyone having to learn anything or argue about (for 12+ pages).

[Cyclone Jack]

It looks like they are doubling-down on this.  If this is the case, AT LEAST make the roles match what is in the Character Creator.  I cannot believe this is being overlooked!  It boggles my mind, especially when they're putting so much focus on New Player Experience.

[KeepDistance]

On 1/22/2024 at 4:15 AM, Cobalt Arachne said:

This new bonus is to help guide players who are unfamiliar with City of Heroes to the basic fundamentals of team building and archetype roles, and then giving a small reward to teams that are inclusive and bring every type of player role. Perhaps the name of the reward should be changed to 'Role Inclusivity Bonus'?

I have to admit I don't understand how this bonus achieves this goal. As far as I can tell it rewards players for narrowly defining what different ATs can do on a team. If anything, this is the opposite of what I would want to convey.

[Fade]

What I like about this system:

• More Prismatic Aethers earned, especially during the lower levels, seems like a good thing.
• I like seeing what I call a "rainbow team", when every member of a team has a different archetype symbol on the team window, for aesthetic reasons.

 

What I don't like about this system:

• The specific roles assigned to the archetypes are too limited. In an attempt to be "fair" to the archetypes that are designed to specialize, the system is unfair to archetypes designed to do multiple things well.
  • The "Corruptors don't count as support"  argument is like beating a dead horse at this point.
• I feel like the roles provided here make sense from a game design perspective but not a game play perspective.
  • I have never looked at a team and thought "This team is well balanced, except we need more melee damage. No blasters allowed, no brutes allowed, get me a scrapper or a stalker only!"
  • "Support" being a single category feels limited. I think there's a difference between offensive support (damage buffs, resistance debuffs), defensive support (defense and resistance buffs, damage and tohit debuffs), healing, and endurance (recovery buffs or outright +endurance effects). Most support sets have a mix of capabilities, but may focus on one way over another.
• This system defines role as something you are, rather than something you do.
  • At the very least, this idea is clearly divisive.
• I don't think all-support teams, or all-tank teams, or what have you, are any less "healthy" than a more balanced team.
  • I do agree that it is unhealthy if characters that focus on a particular role feel like they have no place in the game. But I think this isn't solved by being the tag-along so the rest of the team can get more rewards, and has to be solved with game design. If controls (for example) feel inadequate in the late game, more situations where they are useful must be introduced.
• I don't want to be the guy who feels like he has to switch characters in order for everybody to get a 3 million influence bonus. Likewise, I don't want to be the guy who thinks about his teammates "I wish you were playing a different character."
• The system incentivizes speedrunning shorter TFs multiple times with different characters over playing a single longer TF.
  • This also doesn't do anything for mission teams.

Overall, I think the negatives outweigh the positives on this one.