Super Strength for Scrappers please

[Lazarus]

3 hours ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

I would argue that the DCEU version of Wonder Woman is a Scrapper with Super Strength. Yeah, she uses a sword, but she's shown to pick up and thrown an 8 ton armored car. I'd say that qualifies as super strength, wouldn't you? Her and her fellow amazons are also shown to be highly skilled combatants.

 WHEN I used the term POWER HOUSE it was meant as some one who can stand toe to toe with the big bad and take the brunt of his attacks. WONDER WOMAN can do that,

BATMAN cant period.

 

NOW since so many are in favor of porting but acknowledge that rage is the problem here, let me ask you this.

 

WHAT IS SUPER STRENGTH WITHOUT RAGE??

 

rage is what sets SS apart from all other sets.

[Major_Decoy]

4 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

 WHEN I used the term POWER HOUSE it was meant as some one who can stand toe to toe with the big bad and take the brunt of his attacks. WONDER WOMAN can do that,

BATMAN cant period.

 

NOW since so many are in favor of porting but acknowledge that rage is the problem here, let me ask you this.

 

WHAT IS SUPER STRENGTH WITHOUT RAGE??

 

rage is what sets SS apart from all other sets.

 

Super Strength is Super Strength. It's the only set with Foot Stomp, with Jab, Punch, Haymaker, Handclap, and Knock-out Blow.

 

When the game was launched the Tank damage cap was +300% (and knock-out blow was a low damage hold). When Hamidon Enhancements were released you could hit the damage cap with 6 slotted Acc/Dam hamidon enhancements and Rage did nothing.

 

There have been massive changes to the game since then, upping tank damage, increasing the tank damage cap, enhancement diversification, all of this significantly improved Rage while the only change to Rage itself was going from a mag 16 self stun to what is now.

 

What is Super Strength without rage? It's an attack set with a satisfying crunch to sounds and animations. It's brute force. It doesn't have the skill of Martial Arts, it doesn't have the finesse of Street Justice.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

WHAT IS SUPER STRENGTH WITHOUT RAGE??

If you took Rage away from Super Strength, you still have Super Strength. And even if you choose to keep/take Rage, all it is, is an adrenaline rush boosting your capabilities for a while. That can be Hulk's rage or that martial artist who for a short period of time can focus his chi to bolster his attacks or any other short term boost to an already strong character's abilities. And if you just look at CoX and the Super Strength set? From personal experience, you can skip Rage and still be performing absolutely fine even in +4/x8 content while solo.

 

1 hour ago, Lazarus said:

WHEN I used the term POWER HOUSE it was meant as some one who can stand toe to toe with the big bad and take the brunt of his attacks. WONDER WOMAN can do that,

BATMAN cant period.

I tend to view Wonder Woman more as a Scrapper than a Tanker. She is super strong and she is super fast, and she avoids being hit most times. Either by using her bracers to deflect or by actively dodging. And even if others decide she is more of a Tanker, then you still have Captain America and Winter Soldier. Both are super strong characters, both use shield defense ( Cap's shield on one arm and Soldier's armored robotic arm), and both can stand their ground against their foes, but neither are Tankers. They are durable Scrappers. And if you want to muddy the waters even further, Wolverine. (Who possesses above human strength, adamantium claws and skeleton, and insanely good regeneration.) And to finish? Yes, Batman has gone toe to toe with super powerful/strong characters and just traded blows.

 

(Edit: Or how about Beast? He has super strength but he actively avoids being hit, bounding around to use his strength while Colossus holds everyone's attention.)

Edited March 27 by Rudra

[gameboy1234]

If the devs can't "fix" Super Strength, I wonder if the could give us a different version of SS that works differently, and just let players choose which they want.  Same basic animations and progression, just with the differences that some players are asking for.  (So, probably "fix" Rage somehow.)  Dunno if that's cool but folks seem to like new sets in general, a new SS set would give folks something new to play with.

 

They could call it Super Duper Strength.

 

[Major_Decoy]

2 minutes ago, gameboy1234 said:

If the devs can't "fix" Super Strength, I wonder if the could give us a different version of SS that works differently, and just let players choose which they want.  Same basic animations and progression, just with the differences that some players are asking for.  (So, probably "fix" Rage somehow.)  Dunno if that's cool but folks seem to like new sets in general, a new SS set would give folks something new to play with.

 

They could call it Super Duper Strength.

 

Nah, the current version become Berserker Strength and the new version is Super Strength.

[Azari]

Normally I would say keep Super Strength for tanks and brutes only. But, Scrappers have Titan Weapons…. May as well give some form of SS too.

[A.I.D.A.]

Fix the Super Strength we already have, before even thinking about porting it elsewhere.

Edited March 27 by A.I.D.A.

[Haijinx]

20 years of basically the same arguments lol 

 

This is why. 

 

 

 

[Daniel_R]

2 hours ago, Haijinx said:

20 years of basically the same arguments lol 

 

This is why. 

 

 

 

 

Yup. The odd thing is that I actually think there's broad agreement that a rebalance would be good for the set - but we still keep having the same "discussions".

 

For the record:

 

1. Take off some of Rage's buff (Damage and ToHit) and compensate the DPS of Set's other attacks, then - 

2. Scrappers, if the set is ported, get Buildup; finally - 

3. Optionally, provide a toggle-based +Dmg alternative to Rage (Focus?), to provide a thematic and mechanical alternative that doesn't disadvantage defence-based armours (toss a coin if scrappers get the choice too - I vote "no").

 

 

 

 

Alternatively, keep it exactly like it is - it's actually kind of comforting that we're still having the same arguments after two decades, and it makes for a pretty good drinking game. 

 

[Player2]

4 hours ago, A.I.D.A. said:

Fix the Super Strength we already have, before even thinking about porting it elsewhere.

With talk about replacing Rage with another power and rebalancing the attacks to make it viable for scrappers floating around, this could be viewed as an opportunity to fix Super Strength (for tankers and brutes) later.  As in do it different for the scrappers/stalkers and see how the set plays out with changes.  If it goes well, then look at that data as a means to address issues with the brutes and tankers version of the powerset.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

Fact is when most folk think super strength 

they think hulk

when most folk think of hulk they think Anger/mad/rage 

also 

 

We get stronger when we are angry

untying rage from SS removes its uniqueness

adjust it

don't remove it.

[Azari]

My SS tank toon is my main and I’ve never thought the set was that broken or weird.

[PeregrineFalcon]

57 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

We get stronger when we are angry

untying rage from SS removes its uniqueness

adjust it

don't remove it.

Oh, we all know that the Council of Thirteen isn't going to take my suggestion and remove Rage from Super Strength.

 

Every time they touch a set they add a combo or other weird mechanic to the set, and every new set has its own combo or weird mechanic. Rage is safe because it's a mini-game that's already part of a set.

 

So that's the quandary the Homecoming developers find themselves in with Super Strength. They are good at math and know that it'd be too powerful on a Scrapper, but they can't bring themselves to alter or remove it because they loves them some weird mini-game mechanics.

[megaericzero]

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

Fact is when most folk think super strength 

they think hulk

when most folk think of hulk they think Anger/mad/rage 

also 

3 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

We get stronger when we are angry

untying rage from SS removes its uniqueness

adjust it

don't remove it.

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say the two are intrinsically linked. There are plenty of characters that - while they can get a temporary boost from being mad - are not defined by strength and rage. Thor, Superman, Wonder Woman, Colossus, All-Might, and so on.

[Rudra]

4 minutes ago, megaericzero said:

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say the two are intrinsically linked. There are plenty of characters that - while they can get a temporary boost from being mad - are not defined by strength and rage. Thor, Superman, Wonder Woman, Colossus, All-Might, and so on.

Personally, I think if Rage was just renamed to like Adrenaline Rush, there would be less complaints about it. How many times have there been requests for replacement powers for Rage that were mechanically the same but had a different name?

[PeregrineFalcon]

19 minutes ago, Rudra said:

Personally, I think if Rage was just renamed to like Adrenaline Rush, there would be less complaints about it. How many times have there been requests for replacement powers for Rage that were mechanically the same but had a different name?

Yeah, and people would light the forums on fire because their character concept includes Rage as is and has since 2004.

 

Face it, anything the developers do with Rage, including nothing, is going to light the forums on fire.

[Vanden]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Yeah, and people would light the forums on fire because their character concept includes Rage as is and has since 2004.

 

Face it, anything the developers do with Rage, including nothing, is going to light the forums on fire.

 

I have a hard time believing people would get that mad if Super Strength gets ported to Stalkers and Scrappers without Rage, but doesn't get touched on Tankers and Brutes. It's actually the best, most realistic option available; you want Rage, player a Tanker or Brute. You want no Rage, play Scrapper or Stalker. Obviously they can't make everyone happy, but that would be the next best thing.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

 

I wouldn't go so far as to say the two are intrinsically linked. There are plenty of characters that - while they can get a temporary boost from being mad - are not defined by strength and rage. Thor, Superman, Wonder Woman, Colossus, All-Might, and so on.

 

how many times have we seen superman get mad and punch someone through a planet?

check out this image of spiderman getting so mad he punches hulk into orbit

 

 

 

 

get mad, get stronger!

[biostem]

2 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

how many times have we seen superman get mad and punch someone through a planet?

TBH, I think that example is a bit different - it's someone who typically has to hold themselves back, then temporarily losing that self-restraint, whereas someone like the Hulk literally gets stronger as they get angrier...

[Rudra]

5 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

 

how many times have we seen superman get mad and punch someone through a planet?

check out this image of spiderman getting so mad he punches hulk into orbit

 

 

 

 

get mad, get stronger!

How did I forget Spiderman as an example of a non-Tanker super strength character?! Thanks.

 

1 minute ago, biostem said:

TBH, I think that example is a bit different - it's someone who typically has to hold themselves back, then temporarily losing that self-restraint, whereas someone like the Hulk literally gets stronger as they get angrier...

You are correct in that the presented panel is more Spiderman no longer holding back rather than a rage boost, but given that he launched Gray Hulk into orbit means he was still acting beyond even his amazing levels of super strength. So there is still a boost going on in that panel. However, @Saiyajinzoningen is not wrong in that various super strong characters do find themselves performing feats they normally can't because of anger even if they are themselves not prone to rage like say the Hulk. Though in most such depictions I have seen, it is a panicked or desperate boost rather than a rage-filled one. (And when you get down to it, rage is just another means of the body releasing adrenaline into the system to push us to meet the problem we face. Panicked, raged, injected; it all boils down to the same basic thing.)

[megaericzero]

15 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

how many times have we seen superman get mad and punch someone through a planet?

That was my point. Characters have been shown to receive a temporary boost from being mad - super strength or any other superpower - but these characters are not defined by consistent rage.

 

1 minute ago, Rudra said:

However, @Saiyajinzoningen is not wrong in that various super strong characters do find themselves performing feats they normally can't because of anger even if they are themselves not prone to rage like say the Hulk. Though in most such depictions I have seen, it is a panicked or desperate boost rather than a rage-filled one.

I would argue those further exemplify a Build Up-style burst of strength than a Rage-style one.

[Saiyajinzoningen]

let us all never forget that time aquaman got pissed and threw a polar bear at some baddies

 

 

 

lol

 

Edited March 27 by Saiyajinzoningen
not advocating throwing bears or any other animal, its a joke please dont take it seriously

[arcane]

5 minutes ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

not advocating throwing bears

 

Thank you for clarifying 

 

*Quickly deletes Bear Blast draft post*

Edited March 27 by arcane

[PeregrineFalcon]

14 minutes ago, arcane said:

Thank you for clarifying 

 

*Quickly deletes Bear Blast draft post*

I on the other hand DO advocate throwing bears.

 

Bring it!!!

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, megaericzero said:

I would argue those further exemplify a Build Up-style burst of strength than a Rage-style one.

That they aren't rage is my point. Rage is a thing that doesn't really show up for many super strength characters in the comics. That it does get used even for mental/tactical characters like Beast is something I agree with @Saiyajinzoningen about. However, desperation, panic, and other situations outside of raw anger tends to show up for them more often. Though mechanically it would still be the same mechanic as represented in a game. (Technically, you can even consider Build Up along the same lines. Just as a shorter duration adrenaline rush that lacks the crash and isn't portrayed as anger. Rage as a mechanic works for many instances of long duration pushing past your limits that don't include anger. It is unfortunately named though.)