Nin vs SR

[Project]

I know this is an old topic, but I really don't get it.

 

The overall argument for Nin seems to be based on the fact that Ninjutsu got a heal power, and three skippable powers (Caltropes, Blinding Power, and Smoke Flash). VS a set with arguably more defense, a bit of resistance and a +20% cooldown factor. 

So is it really a good argument that Nin have bad powers, and therefore is a great set? O_o ... What's the justification you can do towards Nin compared directly with Super Reflexes?

[Haijinx]

If you skip those powers you kind lose utility in the set with the most tools on its utility belt. 

[Frozen Burn]

I don't see those powers as "skippable."  They are part of the set and add to the overall survivability the set provides.

• Caltrops makes foes want to run away (slowly) and reduces the amount of attacks they attempt - attacks never fired never land.  
• Blinding Powder is a ToHit Debuff and Confuse/Sleep (among other things) - the foes' -ToHit makes your Defense that much stronger.  Their confusion/sleeping means they aren't attacking you (again, 100% damage mitigation). 
• Smoke Flash - a large area PBAOE Placate that is larger than your normal Placate - what's not to love about that?  

While yes, SR defense #s are well over the soft cap, you have to scrounge pools for any utility to help with survival.  Ninjitsu, with it's built in utilities keeps it balanced with SR.  Skipping the utilities in Ninjitsu is like skipping the Passive Def powers in SR... you do yourself a disservice.  

 

SR is just more passive in playstyle - you turn on your toggles and go.  Ninjitsu requires a little more active participation in using the utilities to your benefit.  But again, they are balanced well comparatively.  

[Project]

43 minutes ago, Frozen Burn said:

I don't see those powers as "skippable."  They are part of the set and add to the overall survivability the set provides.

• Caltrops makes foes want to run away (slowly) and reduces the amount of attacks they attempt - attacks never fired never land.  
• Blinding Powder is a ToHit Debuff and Confuse/Sleep (among other things) - the foes' -ToHit makes your Defense that much stronger.  Their confusion/sleeping means they aren't attacking you (again, 100% damage mitigation). 
• Smoke Flash - a large area PBAOE Placate that is larger than your normal Placate - what's not to love about that?  

While yes, SR defense #s are well over the soft cap, you have to scrounge pools for any utility to help with survival.  Ninjitsu, with it's built in utilities keeps it balanced with SR.  Skipping the utilities in Ninjitsu is like skipping the Passive Def powers in SR... you do yourself a disservice.  

 

SR is just more passive in playstyle - you turn on your toggles and go.  Ninjitsu requires a little more active participation in using the utilities to your benefit.  But again, they are balanced well comparatively.  

thanks for the elaboration. Just seen a lot of arguments about skippable powers, so made very little sense to me 😄

[Psiphon]

IMO, SR simply relies on not being hit and has massive resistance to losing that defence. 

Heals etc. need to be gained from power pools. 

Ninja has less defence but has other ways to mitigate damage - the powers that you named, which shouldn't be skipped. 

So basically Ninja gives more ways to stop being hit. 

SR has the most resistance to mobs making you get hit. 

 

If you want to just run around attacking things go SR. 

If you're happy to press more buttons in order to stay alive as well as hit things go Ninja. 

I play both and enjoy both, depending on my mood. 

[biostem]

SR is a scalpel and Nin is a swiss army knife;  One does one thing exceptionally well, while the other has a multitude of tricks up its sleeve.  Personally, I love the Sentinel and Scrapper version of Nin better than the Stalker one, but to skip those tools leaves you with basically half a set...

Edited March 23 by biostem

[Bopper]

Don't sleep on that heal power. It can be enhanced to do roughly 50% of your base health every 20s or so. You're gonna be able to give yourself roughly 28 hps at the extremes.

 

Plus, the toxic resistance stacks.

[nihilii]

I feel /nin is just one of those powersets that looked a lot better before /sr got buff after buff. You basically need to find value in the tools. I don't so I skip stalker /nin.

 

The heal is nice, sure, but given that /nin basically needs an extra pool to compete with /sr in just defenses (let alone nonexistant scaling resistances), one might argue the equivalent /sr would grab Aid Self.

[Onlyasandwich]

5 hours ago, nihilii said:

equivalent /sr would grab Aid Self.

To be fair, Aid self is nowhere near as good as Kuji-In Sha.

 

Long activation time, interruptible without enhancement for it, lower heal, no resist component, 1 power tax in the pool to get there - pretty big difference!

 

Of course going for Tough/Weave is quite taxing as well, though SR typically benefits from grabbing at least tough already.

 

For the sake of argument, let's call this relatively even, though I think the /nin heal is powerful enough that it's a firm advantage to /nin.

 

From there we have in SR's column:

 

• +Recharge
• Far superior DDR.
• Scaling res. Really great of course! However, value is slightly diminished on Stalkers due to lower HP. 
• Edit - knockback protection! How did I miss this? Without Bo Ryaku, /nin lacks any native KB protection. This is an annoying tax for sure that I didn't realize until just now. Usually essentials like this that are missed due to power re-arrangement on Stalkers get incorporated into other powers, but not here. Boo.

 

Compared to nin's:

• Caltrops (useful, good set mule if needed, requires minimal slotting, but not an auto-grab for all playstyles)
• Psi resist. Other resists will typically be lower, but you're probably going to be 40+ percent ahead here most of the time. Notably missing from SR/s scaling resists! 
• Smoke Flash. How good is this? I'm not quite sure. I'm actually building a nin/ right now with the intention of using it. My hope is that it will, alongside placate, make runners a thing of the past. Would be nice if it had the -res as the Blaster epic version does, given that the animation isn't exactly snappy.
• Blinding Powder. A powerful set mule, and pretty strong grab bag of debuffs. My main complaint is the range. I get it thematically, but another 10 -20 meters would be a game changer.
• Lower end consumption and more efficient power focus, because you have 2 toggles for your positionals instead of 3.

 

It's hard to objectively value all of these utility powers, but it's a pretty nice bag of tricks! Ultimately SR is a clean machine, and Nin gives you more to play with, not only in terms of power tricks, but also interesting slotting opportunities. Overall it's a pretty fair trade.

 

Edited March 24 by Onlyasandwich

[Force Redux]

Don't forget that Ninjutsu grants Fear and Confuse protection as well. 

[Frosticus]

Scrapper /nin is one of my fav def sets, unfortunately the stalker version gives up the +end power that gives so much build freedom with an easy 3 eps boost.

 

If smoke flash put you in hide, or better yet unbreakable hide for like 5 sec (chain crits) you'd tempt me.

 

Stalker nin is one of the only sets that offers basically nothing offensively. Blinding powders confuse is too weak to use offensively (should be 100% mag 2, 50% mag 1) and caltrops damage is too slow (good defensive power though). It offers no endurance management, +rech, or +tohit, all of which promote offense in their own way.

 

And as a strictly defensive set it isn't amazing either.

[Doomguide2005]

23 hours ago, Force Redux said:

Don't forget that Ninjutsu grants Fear and Confuse protection as well. 

Both have Confuse (in Focused Fighting).

Fear can be pretty annoying at least on my scrapper but fortunately is rare.

[Force Redux]

Thanks I had either forgotten or didn't realize it about focus fighting. Yeah not too common but I hate when a succubus or another mob confused or fear!