Suggest to me a tortuous path past the more bullshitty villain groups

[temnix]

It wasn't always like this, but these days, when I know and understand so much of what CoH includes and shows so much better, playing the game falls into two parts: reasonably interesting and not at all. The former can also be dubbed pleasant, charming, educational and meaningful, the latter - repetitive, immature, banal and ridiculous. For example, a Prussian Prince of Automatons is ridiculous. I don't ever want to come up against him or fight his Nemesis dressed in 19th century uniforms, thank you very much. On the other hand, the Skulls or the Hellions are not very ridiculous. It is possible that a gang may involve death or devil worship. There have been examples, but even in itself it is not stupid. Nemesis is. So is, e.g., the Malta Group, and here let me quote to you from the wiki. Rinse your mouth with apple vinegar first, to stop convulsions stomach content:

 

"Secrets within secrets. Black helicopters and balaclavas. Shadowy agencies with limitless slush funds, and black-hearted agents with licenses to kill. Hushed conversations on internet chat-rooms that mysteriously vanish. Men in black with blank identities, and deadly women with a dozen passports. A high-tech paramilitary force divided into clandestine cells and dispersed around the globe – this is the Malta Group. In a world of super-powered chaos and costume-clad adventurers, there are still mortal forces that try to control the storm. One such group is spoken of in whispers, even at the highest levels of power. Rarely seen, those who know of them detect their fingerprints staining the headlines with frightening regularity. Young heroes may never encounter these forces directly, but paranoid government analysts and conspiracy experts believe the Malta Group’s machinations are ubiquitous."

 

Is it possible to muster more cliches from every "thriller" movie of the past 50 years in the same place? God damn it. And I'm going to spend my time bashing these? I don't think so. As I said, there are moments when I don't feel like I'm wasting it, for example: when I hear a new area district tune, written by a talented composer those 20 years ago (the one from Cap Au Diable are some of my favorites); when an NPC tells a story whose development I can't see from a mile away or uses unfamiliar or forgotten words ("rubes" came up twice lately; haven't seen "rubes" in a while); when villains show a sense of fashion; when I come into an area made charming and believable with excellently drawn buildings, arranged with details lifted from life or cleverly invented. Then even the basis of the gameplay, the dull combat, is tolerable. On the other hand, when I come into the First Ward with its vortex and forced "insanity" (bo-o-ring), or see Seeds of Hamidon I'm supposed to fight as a (sigh) Giant Monster, or I am supposed to hunt for badges and log out for Day Jobs, or stockpile Merit Rewards, or any of the other nonsense for sloped-browed juveniles, I say: uh-huh.

 

You might think I am of the opinion that the game is pretty stupid on the whole. Yes, it is, but not everywhere. There are flower beds of talent making themselves felt, mostly when it comes to Paragon City and the Rogue Isles, and then there is the stuff for uneducated idle kids to waste time on. And I do need some kind of alternate reality to act in, the original having been spoiled and debased. So I would like to play only the smart bits, hopping from one sweet spot to another. I want to avoid fighting Nemesis, for instance, and the Circle of Thorns should be banned for unoriginality (Oranbega is a great choice for a name, however), but the Family is not overly ridiculous, Freakshow is tolerable as far as it goes, the Gold Brickers are annoying yet not without promise... My criteria are not abstruse or whimsical. Any person of sound mind recognizes total nose-blown bullshit when he sees it. What I'm asking for, then, is a way for me to level up my characters on the villain and the hero side past the worst offenders. Don't talk to me about Shards. Don't give me Roman legionaries stuck in time, the bastards. But guide me past the vortices where pop culture eats itself to endgame so that I might discover Lord Recluse's factions, what corresponds to them for heroes, enjoy the parts that have art and sense and in the process write a not-meaningless story about my character.

[biostem]

I'd start here and pick-and-choose what content you find most interesting.  That being said, this is a world based upon comic books and pop culture, so I doubt you'll ever find anything completely devoid of such influences...

[Snarky]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

I"Secrets within secrets. Black helicopters and balaclavas. Shadowy agencies with limitless slush funds, and black-hearted agents with licenses to kill. Hushed conversations on internet chat-rooms that mysteriously vanish. Men in black with blank identities, and deadly women with a dozen passports. A high-tech paramilitary force divided into clandestine cells and dispersed around the globe – this is the Malta Group. In a world of super-powered chaos and costume-clad adventurers, there are still mortal forces that try to control the storm. One such group is spoken of in whispers, even at the highest levels of power. Rarely seen, those who know of them detect their fingerprints staining the headlines with frightening regularity. Young heroes may never encounter these forces directly, but paranoid government analysts and conspiracy experts believe the Malta Group’s machinations are ubiquitous."

 

Is it possible to muster more cliches from every "thriller" movie of the past 50 years in the same place?

There is a reason these cliches exist.  Throughout human history little hroups have tried to influence global politics.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they are ... nearly .... wiped off the face of the planet.  But their legend and oftentimes influence lingers.  

 

As an example look at the Knight Templar.  Very powerful, and influenced geopolitics.  Then wiped out.  yet, even disregarding the fanciful stories, there still exist the Freemasons and the DeMolay group.  And other, less well known splinters and 'cells" that have Templar DNA.  Then there are the "possible" ones we can suppose exist but cannot prove...

 

There are hundreds more examples to offer up.  Each of the groups in CoH draw from historical real world inspiration, then take comic book magic and technology and supercharge the concepts.

[Go0gleplex]

While I disagree with the OP on many things there are a few issues with villains and their groups I do find to be a minor irritant; mainly nonsensical placement rather than set territories. I mean the Banished Pantheon for example...makes great sense in Dark Astoria and encroaching nearby. Croatoa is another good example of villain groups fitting into the zone...they don't really bleed out of it. Unlike Circle of Thorns which is like a band of roaches and lurking everywhere...like why the heck are they on dang near every rooftop in KR...I can get behind Perez, the Hollows, and the outer islands in Talos. The Vaz, Lost, and Skulls in KR make sense as do the Clocks. I think the Family in KR would make more sense than the Circle. Most gangs claim a territory and defend it against all others...rather than being mixed together like some large disproportionate urban fruit salad.  

 

The other thing just generates a little bit of disappointment (?) or annoyance (?) in that you complete a story arc taking down the bosses or AVs in a zone and then run into more of the same in the next zone rather than being done with that villain group...so there's no real sense of moving on / accomplishment outside of beating the stuffing outta the mobs. The exception to this is the Theiry-Arachnos arc. You bust their base, save the family, and they're done and gone and AP's warehouses are no longer burning down. Sure you still got Hellions and Clocks but they're street rats and it is their territory which you don't see them out of other than in the Hollows & Perez or on specific missions. None of it bothers me enough to stop playing...but that bit of bother is there. 

[Snarky]

6 minutes ago, Go0gleplex said:

While I disagree with the OP on many things there are a few issues with villains and their groups I do find to be a minor irritant; mainly nonsensical placement rather than set territories. I mean the Banished Pantheon for example...makes great sense in Dark Astoria and encroaching nearby. Croatoa is another good example of villain groups fitting into the zone...they don't really bleed out of it. Unlike Circle of Thorns which is like a band of roaches and lurking everywhere...like why the heck are they on dang near every rooftop in KR...I can get behind Perez, the Hollows, and the outer islands in Talos. The Vaz, Lost, and Skulls in KR make sense as do the Clocks. I think the Family in KR would make more sense than the Circle. Most gangs claim a territory and defend it against all others...rather than being mixed together like some large disproportionate urban fruit salad.  

 

The other thing just generates a little bit of disappointment (?) or annoyance (?) in that you complete a story arc taking down the bosses or AVs in a zone and then run into more of the same in the next zone rather than being done with that villain group...so there's no real sense of moving on / accomplishment outside of beating the stuffing outta the mobs. The exception to this is the Theiry-Arachnos arc. You bust their base, save the family, and they're done and gone and AP's warehouses are no longer burning down. Sure you still got Hellions and Clocks but they're street rats and it is their territory which you don't see them out of other than in the Hollows & Perez or on specific missions. None of it bothers me enough to stop playing...but that bit of bother is there. 

If you run the story line arcs a lot of this makes more sense.  But.... Yeah, no one does that.  They want it in a cutscene, that they then gripe is always playing.

[Zect]

I think looking for highbrow literature in the superhero genre is barking up the wrong tree. The camp, the cliches, the melodrama (my absolute favorite being when in Who Will Die? Sister psyche in her mindscape worries about Manticore being unfaithful because of who he stands next to all day - “have you seen how SWAN dresses?!”), the pop culture - they’re part of the DNA.
 

Superheroes are a mass market genre, and I argue, one that appeals to the less privileged in society with its fantasies of justice served and enforcing one’s moral code on others the way elites get to do. That’s not the right audience to sic high culture on: they won’t connect with it. Don’t look for Michelin stars in a McDonald’s. This is not a knock on superheroes or McDonald’s. 
 

2 hours ago, temnix said:

And I do need some kind of alternate reality to act in, the original having been spoiled and debased.

Look, I agree with you that the Cap au Diable music is excellent and the writing in this game is often ridiculous, but what you wrote — and I’m just going to say it — this sounds pretentious in the way only angsty 14 year olds can be.
 

Anyway, if you want an alternate reality to act in, why not take up writing yourself? Your only limit is the margin of the page.

[Glacier Peak]

Use your imagination and create something using the Mission Architect that's better or just lower your expectations. These are the same stories told in the same ways across every culture as they have been for recorded history, and probably in oral traditions before that. Every once in a while someone comes along with a new way to tell that story. 

[biostem]

2 hours ago, Go0gleplex said:

The other thing just generates a little bit of disappointment (?) or annoyance (?) in that you complete a story arc taking down the bosses or AVs in a zone and then run into more of the same in the next zone rather than being done with that villain group...so there's no real sense of moving on / accomplishment outside of beating the stuffing outta the mobs.

Welcome to how MMOs have to function - they can't remove entire villain groups for everyone just because you completed the associated story arc or TF.  If anything, this is better addressed via you moving form 1 zone to another, since it also kind of represents moving ahead in time.  If this were a single player game, enemy groups would essentially go extinct as you took down their leaders and zones would meaningfully change as you made your mark on the world, but when you have to share that space with many other players, not so much...

[Luminara]

Malta are still attacking you after you quit playing?

 

Damn, them's some evil mofos.

[Go0gleplex]

7 hours ago, biostem said:

Welcome to how MMOs have to function - they can't remove entire villain groups for everyone just because you completed the associated story arc or TF.  If anything, this is better addressed via you moving form 1 zone to another, since it also kind of represents moving ahead in time.  If this were a single player game, enemy groups would essentially go extinct as you took down their leaders and zones would meaningfully change as you made your mark on the world, but when you have to share that space with many other players, not so much...

I'm aware of that...which is one reason I'm not all that wound up about things or much on computer or board games. They're all limited by their very nature, be it thru programming, the board itself, etc.  Hence why free form RPGs will always be superior (at least those with decent rules mechanics. lol ) :P

 

Reality is that same way, you can make an impact but never fully get rid of the lice...errr...bad guys once they've gotten dug into an area. But as you noted, moving from one zone to the next would see a transition from one group to the next. Internal to the zones you've got the difficulty zones which can function in the same way and the borders being friction points where the gangs are fighting for dominance. The way CoH/V is set up, with planning and a bit more careful writing and mission flags, it could've gotten a lot closer to this than most MMO's. WarC**** achieved this to an extent so I know it's not unfathomably impossible. 

 

All that said though, as I originally noted, while a bit disappointing/irritating since back in 2004 it's never been enough to make me not wanna play.

[Ukase]

Not sure if serious. 

This entire game relies on suspension of disbelief. 

"Oh, I'm going to make an MA/SR character with a natural origin! Totally, that can exist in real life!" 

Perhaps. Are there cute women in skirts who can zap electricity and kick you in your face that stand on a pedestal and grant you more abilities without you having to learn to stretch first? 

Perhaps not. 

If the game seems too banal, there's a reason for that. It is designed for teenagers, and perhaps, young adults - the target market for comic books. Granted, there are some folks who simply enjoy the nostalgia for a few weeks at a time, and disappear for a time, and then reappear when new content is provided. There are others who may or may not be a victim of arrested development and feel very comfortable mindlessly investing a lot more time in game than what some would consider healthy. 

We're all different. And if you think any of us can figure out what YOU would find stupid and what you would find potentially interesting, please, think again. 

[arcane]

Is there a temnix-summarizing AI bot out there cuz I don’t read novels

[temnix]

18 hours ago, Snarky said:

There is a reason these cliches exist.  Throughout human history little hroups have tried to influence global politics.  Sometimes they do.  Sometimes they are ... nearly .... wiped off the face of the planet.  But their legend and oftentimes influence lingers. 

 

Legends linger, but who should care? Superstitious masses who once believed in matzoth with the blood of Christian children and now in mind-controlling vaccines or something? What is the interest in seeing all this tripe all over again? Inspirations from life, creatively transmuted, are one thing, and pulling together cliches is another. Take the Carnival of Shadows. There has been any number of books about some evil circuses and suspicious crooks, pied pipers, Ray Bradbury's "Something Wicked This Way Comes" is one such, but do we have an interesting, masterful, personal and authorial take on the concept here? No: it's just the bare notion plunked in front of us. What I'm saying here is simple: this game's ideas for most groups are not good enough, and neither are most of the quests. Maybe they are for those who have read nothing, but even twenty years ago I was interested in seeing Paragon City and not investigating who the Clockwork King is, because I more or less knew it would be disappointment. I'm not going to lower my expectations for storytelling, and it is too bad that I didn't get an answer to my request - a plan to avoid the worst offenders. Then again, maybe I should be thankful, I'm spared a compromise that could shame myself.

 

And @Ukase, superheroes do exist, of course. Wonderful, fantastic powers are all real. It is only a very shallow view of reality that fails to register them. Any real creativity can create a miracle. This game just falls short in too many places. This argument about "we are all different" doesn't fly. The blind, the lame, the crooked are also "all different," but that is not a spectrum anybody wants to be a proud part of. A man of sound intelligence knows that nostalgia is an embarrassment, so is illiteracy. And suspension of disbelief is not an excuse for weak concepts. That the game is about comic books did not entitle its authors to reuse the same schlocky approaches to storytelling that make the Marvel Universe a hell hole. As far as I am concerned, I have simply outgrown this game. Which is a little achievement, at least, in twenty years.

[The Chairman]

21 minutes ago, temnix said:

...I have simply outgrown this game.

 

Can I have your stuff?

[lemming]

32 minutes ago, temnix said:

and it is too bad that I didn't get an answer to my request - a plan to avoid the worst offenders.

The very first response gave you an idea on how.   It's going to be something you're going to have to figure out, since some of your complaints, other people like.

 

And you are complaining about 12-19 year old story setups to people that didn't write them.

[Snarky]

52 minutes ago, temnix said:

I'm not going to lower my expectations for storytelling, and it is too bad that I didn't get an answer to my request - a plan to avoid the worst offenders. Then again, maybe I should be thankful, I'm spared a compromise that could shame myself.

I value your commitment to a higher level of storytelling and discourse.  In my opinion you will not find it here.

 

If I won the 1 billion dollar lottery this weekend, bought the game from the 3-5 people owning various right s to it, hired a staff to recreate everything in a new engine, and the best writers in the world....  I do not think the project would meet your desires.

 

Here me out.  You (in my opinion) seek perfection presented to you.  Or very highest bestest quality.  But the nature of storytelling and magic in human art has always been the simplest thing.  If a story, a drawing, a sculpture has meaning to a human, and illicits a feeling, then that is art.  The greater magnitude of the feels to the greater number of people/cultures, the better the art.  But it is in the interpretation, the interaction, the understanding, the belief, the ownership of the concepts that the magic happens.  It is what is inside the persons mind as much or MORE than the story/painting/sculpture/song.  You see dreck and garbage.  I see a playpen to at least create some of my ideas.  The guy down the street sees a way to socialize.  Another person is fascinated by Nemesis.  Has little Nemesis figurines.  Sure, some art is better than others.  There are many flaws with the storytelling and mechanics.  But, some of us find enjoyment.  You find irritation and flaws.  My belief is you would find these flaws unless it perfectly aligned with your belief and views.  just my 2 inf.

 

Oh, and since you are leaving, can I haz yur stuf?

[Scarlet Shocker]

This is a bullshit thread.

 

OP is playing a superhero game in a fictional titular city, in a fictional multiverse and he objects to some of the villain groups because they are not realistic enough

 

What's wrong with that picture?

[Luminara]

1 hour ago, The Chairman said:

Can I have your stuff?

 

If he gives away his stuff, he won't be able to keep playing until his next "I quit" thread.  Come on, man, logic!

[Go0gleplex]

Someone REALLY needs to lay off the Supermarket Tabloids...especially while on whatever psychotropics he's been prescribed. ( Oo ) I've not seen that much straw man double talk outside of political ads and ambulance chasing lawyers.  The OP does realize that the context and content of fiction is a matter of relevant perception as opposed to non-fictional fact and logic and his posts seemingly point to a significant lack of said realization. This is why many fan fiction authors and some professionals include verbage to the effect of "no one is forcing you to read this so if you don't like it toddle off and don't let the door hit the backside as you pass on."

 

@Scarlet: Far far too much to even begin listing I'm afraid. 

[cranebump]

Some of this reminds me of how young writers think the basic criterion for good writing is originality. As in “I must write what no one else has!” My response to this (and them) is “Trust me. Every story’s been told. Just write a good, clear relatable tale. It will already be ‘unique’ because you’re unique, and no one will tell it exactly like you.” 

 

Look at it this way: there’s a lot of rehashed stuff out there that does just fine. Most people don’t want Gravity’s Rainbow. They just want to laugh, or cry, or be scared, or watch people fall in love (or, I guess, kill each other). The superhero genre follows the ages old human desire to create demons from our fears and then slay them. Again and again and again. Everything else (I.e. how the story is told) is window dressing. Plot tricks and details.

 

Villains persist in the game world because the game world is a blurred mirror, an echo of ours. They persist because human beings, with all their dangerous flaws and brazen virtues, persist in ours. We can’t go out and force order on all chaos out there because the solutions are as complex as all the people in the world. Here, though, in this made up world, we can. Over and over again. The quest never ends. This is true in life, as well, where we still see the same villains in different guises, and try to defeat them (often collectively). To say our silly superhero fantasy game is not up to some highbrow literary standard is, frankly, to play the role of the insufferable critic who simply refuses to be pleased with anything anyone ever does. Which is, in itself, a cliche, isn’t it?

Edited March 24 by cranebump

[Haijinx]

First quit because the game is too addictive. 

 

Then quit because it's not addictive enough

 

Then quit because profit?

[Ukase]

A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion, still. 

It doesn't matter what is said here, OP is thinking he's outgrown the game - and the truth is, that's entirely possible. But some folks, like myself on alternate Thursdays..and maybe every third Tuesday, aren't going to be happy with ANYTHING. It's easier to point out the ridiculousness or lack of realism than to look inward and realize we're being unrealistic about our expectations. I suspect the OP is in that category. Unhappy with the game for whatever reason, and then posts about why. Fine by me. 

But to ask folks to point out where the intellectual amusement from the game is - that's just not really feasible. We've only got some references of what they like and don't like. I'm not a streaming platform tracking what was given a thumbs up or thumbs down to suggest the next arc. 
After playing the game for years, I'm not real clear on what I enjoy - as some characters have a better time with some content than others. I normally enjoy the Nemesis arcs of Anton Sampson and Maxwell Christopher. But not on this ill/cold controller I have. And it's more about the character. Feeling like I could just wait 8 more seconds until PA is back up before I start to engage the next set of mobs. That's me, and not a real concern. 

If OP has outgrown the game, then I would expect this to be his final post. A shame. The game can use all the players it can get. 

And yeah, it would be nice if we could have fantastic story tellers like Stan Lee guiding the ship creatively. (and some might dislike that direction, as the OP considers Marvel Universe a "hellhole".) Doesn't have to be exactly like that - just a good story teller. But for what audience? 

[Haijinx]

3 hours ago, Ukase said:

If OP has outgrown the game, then I would expect this to be his final post. 

 

aha hahaha hahahaha

[lemming]

He is just wanting a more torturous path and he likes Skulls.

Here's your path then temnix:

1) Do Skull arcs which you can pickup early on as early as level 5 in KR.

2) Get to level 15 and make sure to pick up an Ouro portal

3) Just do Skull content via the Ouro crystal

[nihilii]

That one Cap au Diable tune really has some kick to it!