Nukes need to be nerfed

[tidge]

I sort of feel what @KaizenSoze is feeling, but I think it is less about the nature of the (Blaster) nukes and more about how Blasters have some "easy mode" features on top of their nukes that don't really apply to other AT. In no particular order:

 

1) It is easy to bump up defenses (this applies even more to Fortunata)

 

In addition to having enhancement bonuses, Blasters, because of the raw power of the nukes, can be a little more liberal about swapping out single-target attacks for power pool choices to improve defense and resistance.

 

2) It is relatively easy to sidestep mezz effects from critters (in response to a cast nuke that may have missed).

 

Not only does the first point apply (Rune of Protection is rather trivial to pick up for Blasters), but there is also Defiance. Every time I have a Controller cast an AoE control and it immediately gets mezzed... I am wee bit jealous that a similarly mezzed Blasters can still have up to three different powers to use.

 

3) It is rather easy to manage both global recharge and Endurance, such that the nukes are often available and there is very little practical cost to working them into an attack chain.

 

This is so deeply baked into the game that I wouldn't want it any other way.

 

Edited April 7 by tidge

[Riverdusk]

10 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Our OP mentions a problem with the end game. I am wondering what problem he is wanting to solve. If a nuke or judgement takes down a group - there is another group after that. If your team is so nuke heavy that the clear times are just ridiculous, I say "Well done!" 

If it is not broken, please don't fix it. 
 

 

Can only assume their take, but can give my own issue with it.  That is that it just makes the game boring sometimes.  Especially for those of us that like to play something like a controller, or a MM, or even a scrapper.  We end up feeling more like a spectator than a participant.  It becomes more of an issue when there are more than a few that have nukes and as mentioned once everyone has judgement incarnate nukes to go along with it.  Incarnate nukes I agree, are the bigger issue and I think the "easier" thing to "adjust" as it'd affect everyone equally. 

 

With the prevalence of people asking to tag along as "sitters" on farms, obviously a lot of people don't mind that kind of playstyle, but it isn't what I find fun personally.  And, no I don't find the hard star content much of a solution as I find them too "fiddly".  Just feels like that sweet middle ground spot is more elusive now.

 

I mean, it isn't terrible and I still join teams at high level, but often by end game I find soloing more fun and that's definitely part of the reason.

  

[Ukase]

15 minutes ago, Riverdusk said:

 

Can only assume their take, but can give my own issue with it.  That is that it just makes the game boring sometimes.  Especially for those of us that like to play something like a controller, or a MM, or even a scrapper.  We end up feeling more like a spectator than a participant.  It becomes more of an issue when there are more than a few that have nukes and as mentioned once everyone has judgement incarnate nukes to go along with it.  Incarnate nukes I agree, are the bigger issue and I think the "easier" thing to "adjust" as it'd affect everyone equally. 

 

With the prevalence of people asking to tag along as "sitters" on farms, obviously a lot of people don't mind that kind of playstyle, but it isn't what I find fun personally.  And, no I don't find the hard star content much of a solution as I find them too "fiddly".  Just feels like that sweet middle ground spot is more elusive now.

 

I mean, it isn't terrible and I still join teams at high level, but often by end game I find soloing more fun and that's definitely part of the reason.

  

I can see what you're saying. Sure. 

For me...here's my thinking, and while a LOT of people would despise it, let's take note of the idea we don't have our lore, nor our destiny level shifts outside of incarnate content. 

Would it be so bad to simply disable judgement outside of incarnate content? And for that matter - why can we use lore in non-incarnate content? We don't get the level shift from lore, why do we get to keep the pets? And yeah, I personally LIKE having judgement and lore pets available outside of incarnate content. But, I get it. Fighting Adamastor, we had 3 teams, and suddenly I'm surrounded by lore pets. Why? Not like we need them. If it were a team of 3 or 4, sure. But 24 supers tackling a dummy like Adamastor? Overkill. 

 

[Sunsette]

I personally dislike lore pets as well as barrier and I'm not a *huge* fan of judgement, but I don't like the "restrict these outside of incarnate content" suggestions because very little interferes with my perception that my character has grown stronger than "you may only use these abilities at approved times". Incarnate shifts are tolerable because they have always only pertained to your performance within incarnate trials and are basically a hard gear check and nothing else.

 

I mean, jeez, when am I gonna appreciate the fact that I can teleport-kick a few dozen people if not solo? Because it's sure not going to be in the middle of a busy eight-person Advanced Mode Taskforce where I've got my mind everywhere but how pretty my abilities are and in fact I probably should be turning particles off.

 

WoW has gone heavy on this concept (by causing enemies in current content to first scale with your level and now scale with your gear) and sure, I don't really *need* to be able to outscale random enemies as part of my daily content but it also meant I increasingly treated the game as a lobby game rather than a roleplaying game. It's a pretty good lobby game these days, I really have enjoyed the last few seasons of M+, but it's not a game I like to passively exist in as much as I used to.

 

And personally speaking, I do not really feel outcompeted with by judgment except on content that's so easy I could probably comfortably solo, duo, or trio it with the right people. 

 

My opinions in these matters frequently boil down to: your desire is reasonable, but is it worth transforming the game as it exists with its current install base to cater to that? Most of the answers I see tell me that it is not.

Edited April 7 by Sunsette

[Glacier Peak]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

Would it be so bad to simply disable judgement outside of incarnate content? And for that matter - why can we use lore in non-incarnate content? We don't get the level shift from lore, why do we get to keep the pets? And yeah, I personally LIKE having judgement and lore pets available outside of incarnate content. But, I get it. Fighting Adamastor, we had 3 teams, and suddenly I'm surrounded by lore pets. Why? Not like we need them. If it were a team of 3 or 4, sure. But 24 supers tackling a dummy like Adamastor? Overkill. 

@Ukase I'm with you on this. It's the City of Overkill. Damage creep has never been as abundant as it is now. At the same time, I don't want to impact others playstyle if all I needed to do to disable judgement outside of incarnate content was unslot it from the Judgement incarnate slot. Sort of a 'meet me halfway' situation I think.

Edited April 7 by Glacier Peak

[DrRocket]

I disagree with your suggestion, do remember Blasters have nothing to help them with defense, resistance, and status effects as opposed to the melee types. The one gift they got to compensate for the tremendous handicap is their DPS, so why rob them out of it? Unless you plan to compensate by giving them status effect protection, etc.

 

Please don't ask to nurf a part of a class, with consideration of augmenting another part to maintain class balance.

 

V/R

[ScarySai]

Too much focus on nerfing something good that doesn't need to be touched when the real conversations should be about bringing up underperformers.

 

Sentinels are garbage, controllers aren't needed on good teams, aoe holds have too many penalties for the modern game, brutes are a joke AT as it currently stands, as well as their ATOs, and the fact that kheldians are long overdue for a buff.

 

But no, let's create more problems instead of solving existing ones.

[Haijinx]

Nukes should be buffed! It should kill everything except the tougher Elite Bosses and Archvillians

 

Including any players dumb enough to be in the AOE 

 

Oh Yeah .. and possibly the player of course. 

[Krimson]

41 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Nukes should be buffed! It should kill everything except the tougher Elite Bosses and Archvillians

 

Including any players dumb enough to be in the AOE 

 

Oh Yeah .. and possibly the player of course. 

Feeling super in a game about superheroes violates several rules, I believe. If you aren't struggling against minions, then it's nerf time. 😄

[srmalloy]

On 4/5/2024 at 4:13 PM, Lunar Ronin said:

Along with Hail of Bullets, the other nuke that didn't crash prior to sunset.

Full Auto would like to raise an objection to your characterization.

[Haijinx]

If inferno killed you and you had Rise of the Phoenix on really high recharge, slotted for damage .. 

 

[Videra]

Man, watching Kaizen get dusted for this incredibly bad take was funny, and reading through it again is still funny.

[KaizenSoze]

8 hours ago, Videra said:

Man, watching Kaizen get dusted for this incredibly bad take was funny, and reading through it again is still funny.

You think any of this changed my mind. Sorry to disappoint you.

[Krimson]

11 hours ago, KaizenSoze said:

You think any of this changed my mind. Sorry to disappoint you.

Why are you even playing a game about superheroes if the idea of being super bothers you? There's lots of MMOs to make you feel weak. You don't need this one.

[Doomguide2005]

     Hmmm, well most of my nuke users are Defenders ... and my /Rad Blast thinks a taunt would be hilarious as most of his taunted survivors stand there held for the duration.  Of course, the damage and debuff plus the fact I've stunned the surviving bosses beforehand typically means I really don't need a taunt, they're already pretty pissed with me.

     I guess the running would be stopped by a taunt but we are talking about a blast set.  No need to chase you have plenty of ranged attacks for runners.

[KaizenSoze]

On 4/7/2024 at 12:28 PM, Ukase said:

Our OP mentions a problem with the end game. I am wondering what problem he is wanting to solve. If a nuke or judgement takes down a group - there is another group after that. If your team is so nuke heavy that the clear times are just ridiculous, I say "Well done!" 

If it is not broken, please don't fix it. 
 

There is more to this game then focusing on faster clear times. How about an actually challenge, maybe get hit occasionally before the spawns are nuked out of existence.

 

Maybe I would like to use more of my powers in melee.

 

I have been crunching more numbers. A lot of folks think I am picking on Blasters in particular. Actually, I am picking on nukes for all ATs.

 

Ion Judgement is doing 5107 damage per activation. Let's round that down to 5100K.

Level 54 Minions have 436 hp, Lts 867.
One Ion per activation hitting 11 targets on average. Dishes out ~12 minions worth of damage or ~6 Lts, once every 2 mins.

My Fort build can fire it's nuke every ~30 seconds before Ageless for 4600 DPA.

That's 11 minions worth of damage every ~30 seconds. Or 5 Lts.

 

The risk vs reward for nukes is completely out of wack.

[Lunar Ronin]

The trick is to limit teams outside of advanced modes TF/SFs and league content to four or five people at most.  It helps.

[Krimson]

Smaller teams would solve a lot of people's issues with how challenging the game is but go ahead and try and convince them.

[Ukase]

On 4/25/2024 at 11:37 AM, KaizenSoze said:

There is more to this game then focusing on faster clear times. How about an actually challenge, maybe get hit occasionally before the spawns are nuked out of existence.

 

Maybe I would like to use more of my powers in melee.

 

I have been crunching more numbers. A lot of folks think I am picking on Blasters in particular. Actually, I am picking on nukes for all ATs.

 

Ion Judgement is doing 5107 damage per activation. Let's round that down to 5100K.

Level 54 Minions have 436 hp, Lts 867.
One Ion per activation hitting 11 targets on average. Dishes out ~12 minions worth of damage or ~6 Lts, once every 2 mins.

My Fort build can fire it's nuke every ~30 seconds before Ageless for 4600 DPA.

That's 11 minions worth of damage every ~30 seconds. Or 5 Lts.

 

The risk vs reward for nukes is completely out of wack.

The challenges are out there now - at least, they seem to be. The advanced mode tfs - but even so, that's only 3 tfs that offer that option, and that is not likely sufficient for you (or anyone else that seeks challenges) 

I realize that this response may not be offering you the solution you want - but there is an option to do various content through ouro without incarnate powers. I would think that would limit at least some of the use of nukes. 

I do get what you're saying. Even as a blaster, I'll be all ready to drop blizzard on a group for the beauty of the orange numbers, but someone else has nuked them before I could. 
And yes, on one of my recent stalkers, I'd be lined up for the AS and then a judgement goes off before my attack fires. Certainly, I can see a source of frustration in that type of context. 

I just look at those incidents like I look at knockback. Not ideal for me, but part of the game. 

[golstat2003]

On 4/25/2024 at 12:37 PM, KaizenSoze said:

There is more to this game then focusing on faster clear times. How about an actually challenge, maybe get hit occasionally before the spawns are nuked out of existence.

 

Maybe I would like to use more of my powers in melee.

 

I have been crunching more numbers. A lot of folks think I am picking on Blasters in particular. Actually, I am picking on nukes for all ATs.

 

Ion Judgement is doing 5107 damage per activation. Let's round that down to 5100K.

Level 54 Minions have 436 hp, Lts 867.
One Ion per activation hitting 11 targets on average. Dishes out ~12 minions worth of damage or ~6 Lts, once every 2 mins.

My Fort build can fire it's nuke every ~30 seconds before Ageless for 4600 DPA.

That's 11 minions worth of damage every ~30 seconds. Or 5 Lts.

 

The risk vs reward for nukes is completely out of wack.

 

Run with teams that are less than 8 then the challenge will return for you. In other words, run your own teams.

 

I would prefer if the devs add more difficulty options for those that want more challenges.

 

Or add more moves for mobs like they did for higher level Council, COT, etc.

 

I'm fine with faster clear times. This is a pick up and play mmo, not an operatic slog. There are other games for that.

[Shin Magmus]

On 4/25/2024 at 6:37 PM, KaizenSoze said:

There is more to this game then focusing on faster clear times. How about an actually challenge, maybe get hit occasionally before the spawns are nuked out of existence.

K, they already gave you an actual challenge with tankier enemies: go play Advanced Mode.  I know you don't, just by the way you phrased all of your comments.  Go play 4* ITF and tell me how well running in and nuking on your Blaster worked. 

 

Oh you... you don't actually engage with the hard content, but still cry for nerfs?  Yeah no. 

[KaizenSoze]

3 hours ago, Shin Magmus said:

K, they already gave you an actual challenge with tankier enemies: go play Advanced Mode.  I know you don't, just by the way you phrased all of your comments.  Go play 4* ITF and tell me how well running in and nuking on your Blaster worked. 

 

Oh you... you don't actually engage with the hard content, but still cry for nerfs?  Yeah no. 

Impressive mind reading. And completely wrong. I do engage in hard mode and watch Incarnate trivialize them.

 

Example, I was on a PUG 4 star Aeon. The only organization was a request for a debuff, tank, and dps. Not specific power sets just a general type of build. And T4 Barrier.

 

The leader was very experienced, they cycled Ageless and the rest of us cycled Barrier. Cycling Barrier solved most of the durability issues. DPS is almost never an issue with all the Judgements, Nukes, and procs, topped off with a layer of debuff.

 

Completed in 1.5 hours, had two party wipes during "special fight", that the worst of it. For a PUG.

 

I have harder 801 runs than this 4 star hard mode.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, KaizenSoze said:

Impressive mind reading. And completely wrong. I do engage in hard mode and watch Incarnate trivialize them.

 

Example, I was on a PUG 4 star Aeon. The only organization was a request for a debuff, tank, and dps. Not specific power sets just a general type of build. And T4 Barrier.

 

The leader was very experienced, they cycled Ageless and the rest of us cycled Barrier. Cycling Barrier solved most of the durability issues. DPS is almost never an issue with all the Judgements, Nukes, and procs, topped off with a layer of debuff.

 

Completed in 1.5 hours, had two party wipes during "special fight", that the worst of it. For a PUG.

 

I have harder 801 runs than this 4 star hard mode.

 

Sooo sounds like the issue was cycling destiny buffs. Also 1.5 hours for an Aeon is no way near the fastest times. And the fastest times have little to do with having a lot of nukes.

Edited April 28 by golstat2003

[KaizenSoze]

1 hour ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Sooo sounds like the issue was cycling destiny buffs. Also 1.5 hours for an Aeon is no way near the fastest times. And the fastest times have little to do with having a lot of nukes.

I do have a problem with Incarnates, but that is another issue outside this thread. And for the time it took, it was a PUG.

 

I know that some SGs have gotten some 4 star hard modes to under an hour with specific setups.

[tidge]

19 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

Run with teams that are less than 8 then the challenge will return for you. In other words, run your own teams.

 

I rather like this piece of advice. I can imagine a variety of circumstances for which a player might want a full team, but precious few of those hypothetical situations would require anything like a full team.

 

If folks are looking for a challenge in sub-50 content, running with fewer players on a team strikes me as being more acceptable to most "tough guys" than choosing debuff/buff options on some random SF/TF.