Empathy Buff: Helping Others Helps Me

[RadiantPhoenix]

See title.

My idea is basically that Empathy powers would, conceptually, provide their effects through a joining of minds, in a way that benefits all involved.

The mechanical identity of this would be single-target powers that also affect the caster.

e.g.:
* Resurrect rezzes both the target AND the caster (assuming the caster is dead, otherwise it just rezzes the target)
* Clear Mind provides mez protection to the target AND the caster, even if the caster is mezzed
* Fortitude buffs the target AND the caster
* Adrenaline Boost buffs the target AND the caster
* "Heal Other" is now "Heal Target", and heals both the target and the caster

I think this would be enough to make Empathy a top-tier set, at least for Corruptors and Controllers.

(I had some other, more complicated, ideas about this, involving powers chaining via a "mental link" buff, but then I realized this would be much simpler and easier to understand, while still getting the job done)

[arcane]

The idea of self-buffing Empathy has been pretty thoroughly rejected over and over in this subforum.

[Purrfekshawn]

l think nothing bad happens if they let e.g. Fortitude when cast on someone else affect the caster with about ~=5% Def to all, also comparable ToHit and Damage, and it's not stacked. It must be doable very easy, as there's enemy-affecting powers (like Tanker's or Brute's Storm Kick) that have self-buff component as well.

[Greycat]

As far as "Heal other is now heal target," you've already *got* an AOE heal that heals yourself as well as anyone around you.

 

I highly doubt, at the *very* least, that Fortitude and AB would be allowed to self-buff without a *major* reduction in effectiveness, as well.

 

And honestly, what I'd like to see (and which is tech that could probably be used for things like WS essences, so I'm a little biased here) is that if a target isn't affected by / rejects the power's use, it's recharged almost instantly. (Hate wasting rezzes on someone not paying attention and sitting through the recharge when someone else needs it, especially on a league.)

[SeraphimKensai]

38 minutes ago, arcane said:

The idea of self-buffing Empathy has been pretty thoroughly rejected over and over in this subforum.

And on the live servers back in the day.

 

That said, given the nature of the terms empathy, I can see the empath receiving some benefit towards buffing/healing others, but I feel directly copying those effects over to the empath would be too strong.

 

Perhaps a new mechanic (maybe named "imprinted emotions" or similar) that gives a small but stacking mez protection/absorb shield to the empath that lingers for say 20 seconds or so.

[Doomguide2005]

 

9 hours ago, Greycat said:

I highly doubt, at the *very* least, that Fortitude and AB would be allowed to self-buff without a *major* reduction in effectiveness, as well.

Indeed!  No way any sensible developer would allow AB (as is) to self and target buff at the same time.  Unless one likes the idea of +200% recharge buffs (Empath A buffs Empath B, Empath B buffs Empath A).  Even without getting buffed by AB most of my Empaths are already in excess of 175% global recharge (endgame build without Incarnates).  Would be fairly simple to approach the recharge hard cap full-time and easy to do so periodically using Geas of the Kind Ones.

 

[RadiantPhoenix]

On 4/9/2024 at 1:41 AM, Doomguide2005 said:

 

Indeed!  No way any sensible developer would allow AB (as is) to self and target buff at the same time.  Unless one likes the idea of +200% recharge buffs (Empath A buffs Empath B, Empath B buffs Empath A).  Even without getting buffed by AB most of my Empaths are already in excess of 175% global recharge (endgame build without Incarnates).  Would be fairly simple to approach the recharge hard cap full-time and easy to do so periodically using Geas of the Kind Ones.

 

This seems like it would be less effective than having each Empath buff someone else.

• The Recovery bonus already hardcaps people, so stacking it adds nothing.
• In order to take full advantage of a massive Regeneration bonus, you need some way to force enemies to attack you, and no Empath actually has that.
• Having Global Recharge at the Recharge hardcap (+400%) doesn't seem like it adds much over having about +300% global recharge, and then slotting +100% recharge in your long-cooldown powers, and spreading the AB out lets you get five people into the second state, rather than getting two into the first.

That being said, even if  it was good you could just have AB not stack with itself, even from separate casters.

EDIT:

Meanwhile, if you bring a Kin and a Time to your team, you already get everyone into the second state, with less effort.

Edited Sunday at 02:12 AM by RadiantPhoenix
Adding comparison to other powersets

[kelika2]

On 4/8/2024 at 2:53 PM, arcane said:

The idea of self-buffing Empathy

this post in itself is mostly not empathetic and should be disregarded.

but spontaneously resurrecting yourself or breaking free i can see

[Doomguide2005]

8 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

This seems like it would be less effective than having each Empath buff someone else.

Not sure what you mean here.  They are buffing someone else.  And then getting the buff themselves as a result.

8 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

• The Recovery bonus already hardcaps people, so stacking it adds nothing.

This is by far the least concerning effect of the OP's idea.  

8 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

• In order to take full advantage of a massive Regeneration bonus, you need some way to force enemies to attack you, and no Empath actually has that.

Ummm.  That statement makes no sense.  By that standard most builds have no way to "force" enemies to attack them.  I mean if a lack of any sort of taunt mechanic meant you couldn't get aggro Blasters among many other ATs would love it.  Nevermind a thing called AoE damage.

8 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

• Having Global Recharge at the Recharge hardcap (+400%) doesn't seem like it adds much over having about +300% global recharge, and then slotting +100% recharge in your long-cooldown powers, and spreading the AB out lets you get five people into the second state, rather than getting two into the first.

Not sure what you are driving at here.  Nothing about the OP changes how AB already works except it now also buffs the caster when used.  

 

Edited Sunday at 10:45 AM by Doomguide2005

[Psi-bolt]

On 4/8/2024 at 1:53 PM, arcane said:

The idea of self-buffing Empathy has been pretty thoroughly rejected over and over in this subforum.

 

This is correct, but should it be so?  While the ability of Empathy to just straight use its powers on the caster might be a bit too much, one thing I think the OP idea brings that is different is the idea of sharing a connection with the target.  Maybe Adrenalin Boost is a bit much, but even Fortitude doesn't seem that crazy so long as it doesn't stack.  

 

I might require that this need an actual players target to work so that controllers and MMs don't just get this for free, but I hardly ever see Empathy.  While the set is great, if folks don't want to play it, that suggests it could use something to make it more desirable.

[golstat2003]

1 hour ago, Psi-bolt said:

 

This is correct, but should it be so?  While the ability of Empathy to just straight use its powers on the caster might be a bit too much, one thing I think the OP idea brings that is different is the idea of sharing a connection with the target.  Maybe Adrenalin Boost is a bit much, but even Fortitude doesn't seem that crazy so long as it doesn't stack.  

 

I might require that this need an actual players target to work so that controllers and MMs don't just get this for free, but I hardly ever see Empathy.  While the set is great, if folks don't want to play it, that suggests it could use something to make it more desirable.

 

Yes it should if it means Empathy's powers get any sort of reduction. Leave it alone please.

[RadiantPhoenix]

10 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Not sure what you mean here.  They are buffing someone else.  And then getting the buff themselves as a result.

This is by far the least concerning effect of the OP's idea.  

Ummm.  That statement makes no sense.  By that standard most builds have no way to "force" enemies to attack them.  I mean if a lack of any sort of taunt mechanic meant you couldn't get aggro Blasters among many other ATs would love it.  Nevermind a thing called AoE damage.

Not sure what you are driving at here.  Nothing about the OP changes how AB already works except it now also buffs the caster when used.  

 

You were talking about Empath A uses AB on Empath B and Empath B uses AB on Empath A (thus, +200% global recharge), and I said it seemed like a foolish thing to do.

Regarding regen: if you can't force *more* enemies to attack you than attack your allies, then +2000% regen on each of two non-tanks doesn't seem anywhere near as good as +1000% regen on each of five non-tanks, of +1000% regen on a tank and +1000% regen on each of four non-tanks.

Edited Sunday at 09:29 PM by RadiantPhoenix

[twozerofoxtrot]

On 4/9/2024 at 4:40 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

That said, given the nature of the terms empathy, I can see the empath receiving some benefit towards buffing/healing others

 

Pain Domination snickering from around the corner.

[Pleonast]

I’d like to see Empath powers self-buff the caster with an effect scaling with the number of other entities affected. No other target means no effect on the caster. Maximum number of targets gives maybe half effect on the caster. 

[Doomguide2005]

5 hours ago, RadiantPhoenix said:

You were talking about Empath A uses AB on Empath B and Empath B uses AB on Empath A (thus, +200% global recharge), and I said it seemed like a foolish thing to do.

Regarding regen: if you can't force *more* enemies to attack you than attack your allies, then +2000% regen on each of two non-tanks doesn't seem anywhere near as good as +1000% regen on each of five non-tanks, of +1000% regen on a tank and +1000% regen on each of four non-tanks.

I see what you are saying but if you have more than one Empath each with a 'free' +100% recharge you don't have a case of 2000% on the Empaths ... you have 2 hard capped Empaths and the rest of team at near 2000% most of the time as both Empaths will have cool downs on Regen Aura at or near their minimum of 10 secs.  Probably in the 20 to 30 sec area where only one Empaths Aura is running.  You add in their HO, HA, AP and Forts etc. and that's about as indestructible as it gets.  Basically the self buff takes 1 Empath less to achieve silly amounts of mitigation.  And in the case of a GM type use can put their nukes in the sub 35 sec and approach the 29 sec mark.

[Shin Magmus]

I made a pretty extensive Buff/Rework thread for Empathy as well, but the main issue with the set really is just how underpowered it is compared to almost every Buff/Debuff set introduced after it.  Sets as old as Empathy (FF) and otherwise extremely old (Sonic Resonance, Trick Arrow) have also been buffed and/or reworked on HC.

 

Empathy alone has never been buffed in any way, and this shit is still baffling to me.  I do not understand why Empathy still has received 0 buffs: not even a simple numbers tweak here or there.  I'd be happy if any of these suggestions made it into the game: just so the set can suck a little less. 

[Wavicle]

I would be totally happy with small unenhanceable self buffs associated with CM, Fort, and AB. Like, casting CM on a team/league member gives the user a small Mez Resistance (not Protection) buff for a short time, maybe like 15 or 20 seconds.  Casting Fort gives the user a small Def/Tohit/Dam buff, I'm thinking like 5% for 15 or 20 seconds. AB gives the user a small buff to Recharge, Regen, and Recovery for a short time (like 20% for like 10 seconds maybe).

 

Ressurect doesn't need a self buff. It needs to buff the recipient.

Edited yesterday at 06:49 AM by Wavicle

[Psi-bolt]

15 hours ago, golstat2003 said:

 

Yes it should if it means Empathy's powers get any sort of reduction. Leave it alone please.

Why would that need to happen?  
 

It’s not a binary.  Perhaps you can’t do this with AB but can with Clear Mind and Fortitude.  No reduction would be necessary then unless we’re just committed to the premise that Empathy is there to mostly help others.  That’s fine, it will just remain a niche set.  

[golstat2003]

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Why would that need to happen?  
 

It’s not a binary.  Perhaps you can’t do this with AB but can with Clear Mind and Fortitude.  No reduction would be necessary then unless we’re just committed to the premise that Empathy is there to mostly help others.  That’s fine, it will just remain a niche set.  

 

It MIGHT happen due to how the Devs are wary of power creep. Aka see the recent changes to Fire Armor. 

 

I'm not interested in anything that could potentially make Empathy worse. And Empathy really isn't a niche set. I see plenty of Emps around while pugging and doing tfs.

 

If we are interested in how many people actually play empathy and not just anectodal evidence, then that is a question for the Devs to answers.

 

EDIT: To be clear I'm find with buffs in general to the values for Empathy overall. I don't think it's going to fly if many "affect others only" powers were suddenly also made to affect the caster. That part can be left out, and just buff the powers.

Edited 21 hours ago by golstat2003

[RadiantPhoenix]

9 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

I see what you are saying but if you have more than one Empath each with a 'free' +100% recharge you don't have a case of 2000% on the Empaths ... you have 2 hard capped Empaths and the rest of team at near 2000% most of the time as both Empaths will have cool downs on Regen Aura at or near their minimum of 10 secs.  Probably in the 20 to 30 sec area where only one Empaths Aura is running.  You add in their HO, HA, AP and Forts etc. and that's about as indestructible as it gets.  Basically the self buff takes 1 Empath less to achieve silly amounts of mitigation.  And in the case of a GM type use can put their nukes in the sub 35 sec and approach the 29 sec mark.

I forgot about Regen and Recovery auras.

 

Is it just me, or can two Empathy/Soul users *already* get pretty close to permanent hardcaps on regen and recovery for the whole team with those?

[Doomguide2005]

Stalkers and Scrappers regeneration hard cap is 3000%

Brutes and Tankers are at 2500%

Everyone else sits at 2000%

 

Each Regeneration Aura is about 800%.  AB is about another 800% on its target.

 

So yes 2 Empaths will pretty much hard cap them selves.  The reason on a GM team you use the AB on the next Empath in the team order is not for the regen or recovery boost however.  It's for that massive recharge boost.  It helps ensure the minimum cool down on the Auras.  Those Auras boost everyone's regeneration and recovery rates with the greatest overlap time possible for all those effected (which is up to 255 targets in a league setting) ensuring the greatest coverage by those buffs. 

 

So yes they could, if AB also effected them, no longer need to target themselves but could drop it on a non-Empath and achieve the otherwise same result of blanketing the team with Auras on top of further buffing another ally