Don't attune that IO!!

[LKN-351]

I keep reading this on the forums and I've done a bit of searching on why but I hadn't came up with anything other than the statement itself. I thought I'd go to the wiki to see if it would shed some light on why. No, not really. It repeats the statement and talks about it being a sunk cost.

 

I could imagine it being pricey.... except I have 30+ of them in my SG salvage bin from just normal play on 50s.

Contrary to that, I could imagine it being expensive for a player that doesn't have a 50.... or a few.

 

Pricey doesn't really make complete sense either cause the wiki and other players have mentioned to 'replace the attuned ones at lvl 50'. Why? Doesn't it still work the same way as a lvl 50 common/rare IO would? Does it not work the same when you exempt down or something?

 

 

Rambling aside, the only benefit that I'm aware of that you get from attuning an IO is that you can use it if you're under the IOs level. Like if I had an IO that was level 50 and the character was only in the 40s and I wanted to use it....

What about if you're slotting a set of IOs and you have 4 at level 50 and one at level 38? Why not attune that one so it's stats are up with the rest of the set?

 

Among all the other questions, what is the actual downside of them??

[Riverdusk]

Basic advantages of attuning:  They level up with you and you get to keep the set bonuses to -3 of the lowest level of the set.  For example an attuned set of thunderstrikes lets you keep all the set bonuses while you exemp down to level 27 or higher since the set starts at level 30.  On the other hand, if they are level 50 you'd only get the set bonuses down to level 47.  So, it is very useful for those that like to exemp down and keep the nice set bonuses.  Note that enhancement values themselves scale down either way no matter what when you exemp.

 

Advantage to not attuning:  You can use enhancement boosters on them (up to 5 times) to get all the enhancement values a 5% increase per boost (so up to +25%).  Most common example, slot two level 50 recharges in hasten and boost them each to +5 and you max out hasten with only 2 slots needed instead of 3.  You just saved a slot to use elsewhere.

 

I like to exemp down a lot, so I generally just attune almost everything that can be attuned.  On the other hand if you are a level 50 farmer that does nothing but level 50 farming, you'd be better off with 50+5 everything.

 

 

[Snarky]

If you are newer do not attune anything.  Also, if cheap.  Buy attuned enhancers off AH. The AH is a giant pool that attuned and unattuned share behind the curtain.  So sell you enhancers on the market and buy back attuned. 
 

The ones that make sense to buy unattuned are the purples.  They act attuned all the way to level 1.  But do not need to be attuned and should be bought un attuned.  Then you can boost the ones you want.  

[Greycat]

I think it's mostly to keep people from wasting them on IOs that are already attuned, like purples.

[BlackSpectre]

IOs are attuned using Enhancement Catalysts. 1 catalyst can cost between 1-5 mil inf. Meanwhile, at Homecoming, you can buy attuned IOs directly from the auction house for no more than the same amount un-attuned IOs are going for. It's basically a waste of inf to use catalysts. Buying already attuned IOs from the auction house essentially attunes your IOs for free. Therefore, using catalysts to attune enhancements is not recommended.

 

If you are crafting your own IOs, you can put your IO up for sale. Then after it's sold, you can use that inf to buy an attuned IO. Often it can be an even swap, but other times you might lose a little inf.  However, any inf you lose would generally be a lot less than the cost of a catalyst (1-5 million inf), so it's still a deal even if you lose a little inf.

 

If you are crafting your IOs, you may not have a lot of inf in the bank. If that's so, consider using Enhancement Converters to change a common, cheap set IO of the same type into the rare, expensive set IO you want.

 

From levels 10-30 I generally use SOs and a few attuned set IOs with special effects (I.e., global procs). At level 30 I replace all of my SOs with common IOs, and usually begin swapping some of those out for attuned set IOs as I continue to level. At level 50, any slots that do not have set IOs in them, get level 50 common IOs (some I boost to +5, some I don't). This is usually done with a RESPEC so I can retrieve all of my lower level common IOs for free (without using Enhancement Unslotters), and then I recycle them by putting them into a storage bin in my base for new characters to use (my next toon will hardly have to buy any common IOs, which saves a ton of inf). I use catalysts only for Archetype and Winter Origin enhancements in order to bump their bonuses up to "superior" level. In general, all of my set IOs are attuned and were bought directly from the auction house.

 

 

P.S. Looking over the wiki page, I think this statement might not be true: "This has one obvious downside of sunk costs if doing it on more than a handful of IOs (as opposed to slotting origin enhancements and using Upgrade)."

 

If you want to start slotting set IOs right away and do not want to spend the inf replace them every 5 levels, then attuning them is VERY cost effective. If you don't want the set bonuses (which is crazy), then SOs will do just fine. However, slotting common IOs at levels 25-30 is much cheaper than upgrading SOs every 5 levels. Remember, only set IOs can be attuned.

 

Attuning PVP enhancements is not destructive at all! It's just that the benefit of attunement while exemplaring doesn't come into play because all characters are set to the same level within a PVP zone. So there's no exemplaring. If a PVP enhancement is attuned, the enhancement's bonuses (not set bonuses) will adjust to the level of the PVP zone, whereas non-attuned enhancements will not.

 

Yeah, the wiki page is very ambiguous and confusing, and could definitely use some polishing.

 

 

Edited June 11 by BlackSpectre

[WumpusRat]

3 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Most common example, slot two level 50 recharges in hasten and boost them each to +5 and you max out hasten with only 2 slots needed instead of 3.  You just saved a slot to use elsewhere.

While this is true, if you're trying to shave off the last few seconds of Hasten's recharge to make it perma, the extra slot is actually more beneficial, assuming you don't desperately need that slot elsewhere.

Two 50+5 recharges ends up with 95.x% recharge for the power.

Three 50th level recharges ends up with 99.x% recharge.

 

That 4% may not be worth it if you don't particularly care about getting it from, say, 121 to 119, but it CAN make a difference in squeaking down to the perma-hasten point.

[Ukase]

In these forums, and the help chat, we get to read a lot. Some of it useful, some of it amusing (thank you Snarky) and some it is just plain wrong. 
Sometimes wrong is well-intentioned, but borne out of the poster's experience. They heard someone say/write X, and in their experience doing "X" seemed to be the right way to go. 

But, they have no idea half the players are doing something else. They all get the same thing accomplished. But some think their way is the right way. The only right way. Oh - that's another thread. Sorry. 

Don't attune purples or PvP IOs because they are attuned right out of the box. You can respec, or you can use unslotters, take out the attuned and replace with level 50 versions of the same enhancement. 

OR - and this may cause some of you to cry - just leave the attuneds in place and go about your merry way. Why make work for yourself? 


If you are considering the advanced mode tfs, then I would suggest you respec your character and use unattuned and boost your enhancements. If there's room for marginal improvements, take that room. Every bit helps. Or you can elect to use a 2nd build - one with boosted IOs, the other with attuned. 

In the AH, be reminded of Snarky's comment above. It's true. You'll notice the same sales history for the attuned as the unattuned. There are the same number of each for sale, with the same number of bidders. So, you can certainly sell your attuned. And when you try to buy the unattuned version of the same thing - hopefully, you'll get it back at the same price. 
But be careful. Sometimes, there aren't any more. And someone gobbles up your attuned version as soon as you list it, and you'll have to craft one from a recipe. It doesn't happen often, but it can happen. 

[Herotu]

11 hours ago, LKN-351 said:

I keep reading this on the forums and I've done a bit of searching on why but I hadn't came up with anything other than the statement itself. I thought I'd go to the wiki to see if it would shed some light on why. No, not really. It repeats the statement and talks about it being a sunk cost.

 

I could imagine it being pricey.... except I have 30+ of them in my SG salvage bin from just normal play on 50s.

Contrary to that, I could imagine it being expensive for a player that doesn't have a 50.... or a few.

 

Pricey doesn't really make complete sense either cause the wiki and other players have mentioned to 'replace the attuned ones at lvl 50'. Why? Doesn't it still work the same way as a lvl 50 common/rare IO would? Does it not work the same when you exempt down or something?

 

 

Rambling aside, the only benefit that I'm aware of that you get from attuning an IO is that you can use it if you're under the IOs level. Like if I had an IO that was level 50 and the character was only in the 40s and I wanted to use it....

What about if you're slotting a set of IOs and you have 4 at level 50 and one at level 38? Why not attune that one so it's stats are up with the rest of the set?

 

Among all the other questions, what is the actual downside of them??

See? This is another example of the secret stuff I mentioned in the "How do we fail new players" thread. We need this information foremost for players somehow. All these niggly things that make a difference should either be;

1. entirely eradicated from the game or

2. much more prominent so we all know about them.

 

There should be no build-oriented secrets.

[Player2]

Maybe the market shouldn't show sale options for attuned Purples and PVPs, and also make it so that enhancement catalysts don't work on them.  Instead of warning people not to attune them and why they don't need to be attuned, just stop making it possible to do so.

 

Edited June 11 by Player2
ignore the PVPs idea

[Ukase]

44 minutes ago, Player2 said:

just stop making it possible to do so

There's definitely some precedent for this protecting players from themselves. 
For example, I can no longer sell a very rare recipe to a vendor (by mistake or otherwise)

Simply remove any "attuned" purple with the fuzzy edges from the AH. Simply disallow the combination of a catalyst with a purple or pvp IO. 

If it needs to be said, we continue to allow the attuning of pvp IOs so lower levels can slot them, unlike the very rare (purple) enhancements which require you to be trained to 50. 

[tidge]

This feels like stale advice:

 

8 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

IOs are attuned using Enhancement Catalysts. 1 catalyst can cost between 1-5 mil inf. Meanwhile, at Homecoming, you can buy attuned IOs directly from the auction house for no more than the same amount un-attuned IOs are going for. It's basically a waste of inf to use catalysts. Buying already attuned IOs from the auction house essentially attunes your IOs for free. Therefore, using catalysts to attune enhancements is not recommended.

 

On Homecoming, one Catalyst will drop ever 24-hour period for a level 50 character, assuming that they defeat something like 8-to-10 spawns of x8. This has the following effects:

• It is rather trivial to accumulate Catalysts.
• The price of Catalysts on the market are usually capped at 1 Minf.

The second point is reinforced because the bucketing of most (all?) catalyzed/non-catalyzed enhancements in the Marketplace drives down the demand for Catalysts; the market's vig ought to be far less than 1 Minf for all pieces, with the possible exception of Winter/ATOs... I simply don't recall if they are bucketed or not, as I never buy them from the AH.

 

Personally: After I made my necessary fortune, I leverage the mass of my accumulated Catalysts to boost the new level 50's ATOs and Winters, and also to catalyze useful (i.e. ones that I am reasonably sure another character will use)  Enhancements that I've crafted from recipe drops along the way. The second is somewhat wasteful of Catalysts (because auction house), but I rather like the feeling of being rather self-sufficient such that a new character can grab a bunch of already attuned enhancements to be used as it levels up.

 

Because recipe drops tend to be accumulated at level 50, I will often do a swap (catalyzed for non-catalyzed-to-be-catalyzed) of enhancement pieces during the level 50 respec. I think the highest number of catalysts I ever ended up 'burning' this way was 56. Crazy wasteful, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .

[srmalloy]

2 hours ago, Ukase said:

Don't attune purples or PvP IOs because they are attuned right out of the box. You can respec, or you can use unslotters, take out the attuned and replace with level 50 versions of the same enhancement. 

This leads to a question that has bothered me for some time. You can get PvP IO recipes at lower levels than 50; if you craft, say, a level 27 Gladiator's Javelin Acc/Dam IO, does that level up with you as you increase level, or does it stay a level 27 IO even when you're 50? I know it will scale down to level 1 and keep counting for set bonuses all the way, but it's unclear whether it scales up as well -- this would make PvP IOs function differently from other IO sets -- if you craft a set of level-20 Positron's Blast IOs, they'll be level 20 forever, and you need to attune them to get them to scale up with you, but do PvP IOs do that automatically?

[ZemX]

7 minutes ago, tidge said:

The second point is reinforced because the bucketing of most (all?) catalyzed/non-catalyzed enhancements in the Marketplace drives down the demand for Catalysts; the market's vig ought to be far less than 1 Minf for all pieces, with the possible exception of Winter/ATOs... I simply don't recall if they are bucketed or not, as I never buy them from the AH.

 

Winter/ATOs are, I think, the only reason catalysts have any value at all.  They are not bucketed together because superior/non-superior versions of these IOs are actually different.  They have different enhancement values and set bonus strengths.  You can even mix superior/non-superior versions of the same set in the same build to double-up on 2 or 3 slot bonuses if you want.  (I do that most often for slow resistance in Winters). The only part where they are considered the same is the uniqueness requirement of each IO.  You can't have both superior and non-superior versions of the same set member (e.g. the Acc/Dmg IO of the set) in a build at the same time.

 

[ZemX]

4 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

this would make PvP IOs function differently from other IO sets -- if you craft a set of level-20 Positron's Blast IOs, they'll be level 20 forever, and you need to attune them to get them to scale up with you, but do PvP IOs do that automatically?

 

Good question.  I generally only use attuned PvP IOs because I'm using them like any other set.  They are unlike normal IOs in that their set bonuses function at any level but I've never looking into whether their enhancement strengths scale UP like you said.  I'm only aware of exemplaring scaling IOs down.

 

I know that the PvP IO level does affect when you are able to slot that IO.  You can't for example, slot a level 20 PvP IO until you're 17, even though the set range goes down to level 10.  Attune that IO (or buy an attuned version of it) and then you can slot it earlier.  

[srmalloy]

3 minutes ago, ZemX said:

Attune that IO (or buy an attuned version of it) and then you can slot it earlier. 

It's a question for going back and reslotting various powers on high-level characters; I think I've got two of a few PvP IOs in the various sets I've accumulated over time, but where I have several from a set, I generally have no more than one of each type in that set; when I have some that are 50, one that's 23, and one that's 32, I'd like to know if I can just slot them all on a 50 and have them act like 50s so I can avoid the hassle of dumping them into the AH and rebuying them as 50 before I boost the whole set.

[tidge]

14 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

This leads to a question that has bothered me for some time. You can get PvP IO recipes at lower levels than 50; if you craft, say, a level 27 Gladiator's Javelin Acc/Dam IO, does that level up with you as you increase level, or does it stay a level 27 IO even when you're 50? I know it will scale down to level 1 and keep counting for set bonuses all the way, but it's unclear whether it scales up as well -- this would make PvP IOs function differently from other IO sets -- if you craft a set of level-20 Positron's Blast IOs, they'll be level 20 forever, and you need to attune them to get them to scale up with you, but do PvP IOs do that automatically?

 

 A level 27 PvP piece will cap its enhancement values at 27. I usually catalyze the one I will use before level 50 as they make good stand-ins for Purples, or convert them to other pieces (like the globals (from Shield Wall, Galadiator's Armor), Panacea or %damage.

[Hedgefund]

Regarding PVP IOs, no, they do not attune "up" as you level.  That lvl 25 Glad Javalin Acc/Dmg will give lvl 25 values forever.

 

Related, I would strongly object to taking out attuned PVP IOs from the AH because I use them frequently while leveling.

Edited June 11 by Hedgefund

[Ukase]

43 minutes ago, srmalloy said:

This leads to a question that has bothered me for some time. You can get PvP IO recipes at lower levels than 50; if you craft, say, a level 27 Gladiator's Javelin Acc/Dam IO, does that level up with you as you increase level, or does it stay a level 27 IO even when you're 50? I know it will scale down to level 1 and keep counting for set bonuses all the way, but it's unclear whether it scales up as well -- this would make PvP IOs function differently from other IO sets -- if you craft a set of level-20 Positron's Blast IOs, they'll be level 20 forever, and you need to attune them to get them to scale up with you, but do PvP IOs do that automatically?

So, just to be 100 clear - Combat Attributes showed the defense boost from Maneuvers at 3.96% in one of my level 50 characters. 
In Maneuvers, I had an lotg 7.5%, and 3 pieces of a Shield Wall set. 

I took the level 50 def/recharge out, and replaced with a level 10 def/recharge in, and defense boost from maneuvers dropped from 3.96 to 3.92. 

So, they do not level up with you, sadly. This is why I use attuned for my level 7 characters, and then remove and replace with level 50's when they reach level 47. 

[Luminara]

4 hours ago, Player2 said:

Maybe the market shouldn't show sale options for attuned Purples and PVPs, and also make it so that enhancement catalysts don't work on them.  Instead of warning people not to attune them and why they don't need to be attuned, just stop making it possible to do so.

 

That would make it ten times more work to use PvP sets on sub-50 characters.  Slot, level a few times, unslot, sell, buy, repeat.

 

Fuck no.

[Player2]

4 hours ago, Ukase said:

If it needs to be said, we continue to allow the attuning of pvp IOs so lower levels can slot them 

Fair.  Maybe for those, a popup when attempting to use a catalyst with them should let people know that attuning is not required but still viable for such purposes.

[Player2]

44 minutes ago, Luminara said:

 

That would make it ten times more work to use PvP sets on sub-50 characters.  Slot, level a few times, unslot, sell, buy, repeat.

 

Fuck no.

But still...  purples.

[LKN-351]

So catalyzing is on the pricey side and should be avoided because there's better options for accomplishing the same outcome. In the back of my mind I knew about the AH bucket in regards to this specific thing but I was a little fuzzy on the details.

 

My main goal of inquiring about attunement was to make sure I wasn't unknowingly nerfing a power or a character by using attuned non-puple IOs. Seems like I'm doin alright.

[ZemX]

40 minutes ago, LKN-351 said:

So catalyzing is on the pricey side and should be avoided because there's better options for accomplishing the same outcome.

 

I am pretty sure it still makes sense for Winters/ATOs at least.  I buy them as normal sets early on leveling and then catalyze them at 50.  Unless prices on these have drastically changed since last I looked.

[Riverdusk]

6 hours ago, Ukase said:

So, just to be 100 clear - Combat Attributes showed the defense boost from Maneuvers at 3.96% in one of my level 50 characters. 
In Maneuvers, I had an lotg 7.5%, and 3 pieces of a Shield Wall set. 

I took the level 50 def/recharge out, and replaced with a level 10 def/recharge in, and defense boost from maneuvers dropped from 3.96 to 3.92. 

So, they do not level up with you, sadly. This is why I use attuned for my level 7 characters, and then remove and replace with level 50's when they reach level 47. 

 

Side note, the LoTG def/+7.5% recharge is also one I always buy attuned because the recharge bonus acts the same as a set bonus. 

 

With an attuned one you maximize the defense enhancement part that will level up with you, and keep the +7.5% recharge part all the way down to level 22.  On the other hand, if you stick a level 50 LoTG in there, you'll lose that recharge bonus under level 47.  If you stick a level 25 one in there, you are shortchanging yourself on the defense enhancement part.

[PhotriusPyrelus]

21 hours ago, Riverdusk said:

Note that enhancement values themselves scale down either way no matter what when you exemp.

Your post was great, and this is true, but there's something worth mentioning here: Attuned enhancements and normal enhancements actually scale down very slightly differently.  Normal enhancements are slightly stronger at higher levels when exemplaring, while attuned enhancements are significantly stronger at the lowest levels (I had a spreadsheet a few weeks ago, but I deleted it because it doesn't *really* matter, because if you're exmplaring a lot, you should be using attuned anyway for the set bonuses).

Another reason you don't need to attune your enhancements is because you can just...buy them?  Wentworths collects all of the same Set IOs for sale and levels them up, or down, and attunes them based on buy orders.  So for example, if I put up a level 21 Performance Shifter: Endurance+, and the price matches a buy order for an attuned Performance Shifter: Endurance +, my level 21 will be attuned and fill the buy order in question.