Alternatives to the Incarnate system

[temnix]

I'm busy, so I'm going to keep this brief. Let others draw out and develop these ideas as they like. Keeping it short, I'm not interested in the post-level 50 future for my character where he'll only have Incarnate powers to look forward to. It takes an extremely long time even to get to level 50, no one has got many characters who have gone there, let alone beyond. All I've read about the Incarnate tiers tells me the abilities are pretty bland. There are some AoE damagers, some defenses, if memory serves, summons from the villain groups that we already know, and a diversification-bypassing power-up. I appreciate Cryptic/NCSoft and Homecoming's working to pave a future up there, but none of that sounds worth pouring months and years into. Especially if it involves going on Incarnate Trials with huge crowds of people. Besides, what kind of challenge could there be at that power level? To do what, shake the gods off Mount Olympus like pears off a tree? If you ask me, at that stage one ought to choose transcendence and continue to an existence with completely different goals instead of still trying to wade in the earth's sandbox in a giant's boots.

 

In short, I'm not interested. What I would be interested in is taking on the abilities of other Archetypes. And Instead of far-out fights I can't identify with at all, I would like to see more early and middle-game content, deeper content too, and a way for my Veteran to relive the life on earth or still live it, but differently. A case in point: my most developed character is Street Justice/Willpower, and I would find it very nice to tap the power set of Regeneration or Invulnerability. I can think of two ways this could work, and they are not mutually exclusive. They could both be options for players at level 50. They wouldn't involve creating a slew of new missions or enemies or types of resources either. Maybe one story arc to introduce a choice between these options and the Incarnate path. As for balance, here is the long and short about it: if a power isn't so mighty that it wins every fight or so weak that you don't know whether you've got it, its balance is fine. We aren't weighing grains of diamonds here. The point of a game, or of life for that matter, is to be interesting in an advancing way, and if that is achieved without destroying the world, either is successful.

 

The first option may be called Old Soul. Here your character discovers that he has lived before, and he gets to tap into that past life. You choose an Archetype and one of the primary or secondary sets open to it. It can be the same Archetype you already have, just not the same power set. And you get the option for taking on powers from there at the usual speed of progression: first the choice between two starting powers, at the next level-up you can pick the other from the pair, then two slots and so on. The powers are used at your current level, but you progress up the tree at the speed of a Veteran, so very, very slowly. If I wanted to draw on a Mastermind's set, for example, and get the basic henchmen, I would get 3 right away, but I would be a long time away from the first upgrade. At reaching level 20 in the recalled set I can make the choice again and recall another life and another set. What's good about this version is that the character gets to use all his high-level powers and still progresses up there to some quasidivine state. It would still require Homecoming to keep supplying high-level challenges, but I think it's considerably more interesting than gathering those threads.

 

The second option is starting a new life. It's a Return to Samsara. Here you get to change all your costumes (bodies) for free, the sex, even take on a new name, if you like, and any permitted Archetype and combination of sets, except your old ones. You begin anew in Atlas Park or on Mercy as a 1st level character. The collected badges are still there, but otherwise it's a reset. The former life's powers are dormant until you rise to the level required to obtain them normally, and they function at the current level. So, if I played a Mastermind formerly of Thugs and now want to add some Wolves to the army (street curs, hey), I begin able to summon one Punk in addition to my starting puppy. The slots are still there when the powers wake up, but all the Es have gone to storage, and the minimum level restrictions will mean most of them will be unusable. Attuned Es are very weak early on. Gradually I will recall all of the other abilities. At reaching level 50 again I'll be able to repeat the trick and relive as another character and another. Recalled powers will make Veterans stronger than real newbies of their level, naturally, that's part of their reward, but enemies can be given special big bonuses vs. these reborn types to prevent them from quite burning through the early levels with their Hellions and Clockwork. What's good about this version is that you get to participate in adventures on earth for real instead of condescending to them in Ouroboros.

 

Now, if Homecoming can bring themselves not to hand-wring over balance and just make things difficult for Veterans with whatever arbitrary enemy bonuses it takes, both of these systems could exist alongside the Incarnate option without needing a major overhaul of the game or tons of new missions or enemies.

[Rudra]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

It takes an extremely long time even to get to level 50,

And yet there are players that get their characters to level 50 in just a few hours.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

no one has got many characters who have gone there,

You are speaking in absolutes without any proof. There are posters on these forums that have commented about how many level 50+s they have. So what counts as "many characters" for this?

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

Especially if it involves going on Incarnate Trials with huge crowds of people.

You can easily make a fully T4'ed incarnate character on HC without ever doing a single iTrial. Between Veteran Level rewards, random thread and shard drops from all mobs you fight after reaching level 50, and the non-iTrial arcs such as the stories in Dark Astoria provide more than enough means to fully build out an incarnate character. How long will it take? That depends on how much you do.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

A case in point: my most developed character is Street Justice/Willpower, and I would find it very nice to tap the power set of Regeneration or Invulnerability

Tapping into Invulnerability: Resilient Alpha.

Tapping into Regeneration: Vigor Alpha.

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

The first option may be called Old Soul. Here your character discovers that he has lived before, and he gets to tap into that past life. You choose an Archetype and one of the primary or secondary sets open to it. It can be the same Archetype you already have, just not the same power set. And you get the option for taking on powers from there at the usual speed of progression: first the choice between two starting powers, at the next level-up you can pick the other from the pair, then two slots and so on. The powers are used at your current level, but you progress up the tree at the speed of a Veteran, so very, very slowly. If I wanted to draw on a Mastermind's set, for example, and get the basic henchmen, I would get 3 right away, but I would be a long time away from the first upgrade. At reaching level 20 in the recalled set I can make the choice again and recall another life and another set. What's good about this version is that the character gets to use all his high-level powers and still progresses up there to some quasidivine state. It would still require Homecoming to keep supplying high-level challenges, but I think it's considerably more interesting than gathering those threads.

Hells no. If you are complaining that the Incarnate system is over-powered? Then why are you proposing this?! Layering AT abilities in this way, combining two full ATs in a single character? This is beyond God Mode levels of power. As a level 50 Street Justice/Willpower Scrapper, not even a Tanker, a level 20 Mastermind, and a level anything else, you are unbeatable. Your pets soak damage you would take, you would be able to just mow down enemies en masse even without your never times out pets that can be re-summoned every 5 seconds even without any recharge effects, and then you tack on Blaster ranged attacks or Controller mezzes? Hells no!

 

(Edit again: As a level 20 Mastermind, you would only be missing the 3rd pet and 2nd pet upgrade from the primary and only missing the last 3 powers from the secondary. And since you would already have all your power pool powers, you could take all your primary powers except for the T8 and T9 and still fit in 5 of the 6 secondary powers you have access to as a level 20 Mastermind. Including the very fast recharge AoE heal in multiple sets. And that is before you even get to the 3rd AT you get when you get the 2nd AT to level 20.)

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

The second option is starting a new life. It's a Return to Samsara. Here you get to change all your costumes (bodies) for free, the sex, even take on a new name, if you like, and any permitted Archetype and combination of sets, except your old ones. You begin anew in Atlas Park or on Mercy as a 1st level character. The collected badges are still there, but otherwise it's a reset. The former life's powers are dormant until you rise to the level required to obtain them normally, and they function at the current level. So, if I played a Mastermind formerly of Thugs and now want to add some Wolves to the army (street curs, hey), I begin able to summon one Punk in addition to my starting puppy. The slots are still there when the powers wake up, but all the Es have gone to storage, and the minimum level restrictions will mean most of them will be unusable. Attuned Es are very weak early on. Gradually I will recall all of the other abilities. At reaching level 50 again I'll be able to repeat the trick and relive as another character and another. Recalled powers will make Veterans stronger than real newbies of their level, naturally, that's part of their reward, but enemies can be given special big bonuses vs. these reborn types to prevent them from quite burning through the early levels with their Hellions and Clockwork. What's good about this version is that you get to participate in adventures on earth for real instead of condescending to them in Ouroboros.

Again, having multiple ATs with all their abilities on a single character is beyond God Mode. Even the incarnate system isn't this insanely broken. So, no.

 

Edited July 23 by Rudra
Edited to correct "with" to "without". And add missing "it".

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

I'm busy, so I'm going to keep this brief.... Keeping it short....

 

In short....

 

...and then a huge wall of text.  😄  I'd hate to see what "long" means to you.

 

Your assumptions are wrong.  It is very easy to get to lvl 50.  There are tons of people who have many, many, many 50+ characters.  And incarnate powers are not bland, but quite diverse - some people are myopic and only just stick to certain ones because they "think" they are the "best" and can't bring themselves to deviate from them, even though, they aren't necessarily the "best" for all toons - and they may spout being boring or bland in the chosen few they only opt for.  But again, there is great diversity and it's great fun to experience them all across different toons.

 

Also, it doesn't take months or years to get through the incarnate tiers - weeks / months maybe depending on how often you play.  And yes, it is quite challenging during iTrials - it takes a great deal of coordination for the group to win.  If the group is experienced, sure, it's an easier time.  But many times, it only takes one misstep from a single person to make a situation go haywire and then you have to rally to overcome.  That's the challenge and fun.  But still... doing iTrials is NOT needed to get your T4 incarnate components.

 

The way you wrote your OP leads me to believe you do none of the incarnate stuff - you even state you are not interested.  You're bashing / poo-poo'ing something you have very little to no experience in.  Perhaps give it an honest try on several characters before naysaying it.  

 

But ultimately, incarnates are here to stay.  It's part of the Lore.  And there will be more coming down the pipe testing our incarnate abilities further as well as advancing the incarnate story.  

 

I appreciate your idea of coming up with an alternative to the incarnate system that you are clearly adverse to trying for some reason.  But as @Rudra stated above, tapping into other powersets is game-breaking and pushes the boundaries too far.  There are already Epic Pools which simulate what you are asking for, but think about how many years it's taken to make them balanced so that they are not OP - and they're STILL being tweaked. 

 

The most you can hope for here is a choice of new pools to choose from when you ding certain vet levels - but they would still need to mimic the incarnate abilities so they are not OP comparatively.  In which case, there is no need for this system as 1) you can get all your T4 incarnates in 5-10 vet levels depending on how you play, and 2) it's mimicking what's already in place.

 

And your second option you propose to just ultimately rework your character to different powers, costumes, gender, whatever.... just make a new toon and pretend it's the same person and let them grow.  

[lemming]

1 hour ago, temnix said:

I'm busy, so I'm going to keep this brief.

Oh really?

 

1 hour ago, temnix said:

It takes an extremely long time even to get to level 50, no one has got many characters who have gone there, let alone beyond.

For example, I've been pruning my characters.  I'm down to 91 level 50s (Had around 200 at one point...)  55 of which are tier 3 or greater.  And there are plenty of people with many more alts.    I don't think the iTrials would as crowded if you were even partially correct.

 

Your theory crafting is often not anchored in how people play.

 

The only glimmer of OK is the being able to restart a char and keep their badges.  That's been asked for before.  However, powers, etc... would not transfer and as Rudra mentions, not a good idea.   (However, because how the DB is setup, etc... not likely to happen)

[Triumphant]

It's a non-starter for me, buddy.  Sorry.  🤷‍♂️

[Greycat]

I wonder if the OP even logs in to the game, given some of the ... bizarre premises he comes up with.

 

"No one has got many characters who have gone (to 50)?" "Takes a long time to get there?" Are we playing the same game? I'll log in and see someone with a new character and, when I see them a week later, they're 50+incarnates. They just ... play the game.

 

I'll say the only reason I don't have *more* 50s than the 30-odd I do or that my characters "take a long time" is that I spend most of my time hanging out RPing. (Which also tends to generate alts, some of which don't generally need to be or have reason not to be 50.) Even then, they get there without all that much effort. I have no idea what the OP does, even after reading far too many of his posts.

[Ruin Mage]

Ah yes, another temnix idea.

Another "jesse, what in the fuck are you talking about." thread.

[JasperStone]

[Luminara]

9 hours ago, temnix said:

What I would be interested in is taking on the abilities of other Archetypes.

 

Ancillary Power Pools and Patron Power Pools.

 

You're welcome.

[CrusaderDroid]

12 hours ago, temnix said:

I'm busy

[golstat2003]

OP, please actually play the game and learn how a few systems work. Some of your suggestions clearly show you don't know how certain things work.

 

It will make it more likely the devs might actually take your suggestions seriously if you came with suggestions that show you did even a little bit of homework.

Edited July 23 by golstat2003

[Luminara]

5 hours ago, Greycat said:

I wonder if the OP even logs in to the game

 

He had a conversation in General.  It was a cool story, bro.

[Ghost]

[biostem]

Use Ouroboros to go back and play all the low- to mid-level content, and all the other storylines you didn't get around to on your first go-round...

[Oubliette_Red]

21 hours ago, temnix said:

I'm busy, so I'm going to keep this brief.

 

<snip>

 

 

Not laughing at you, but your first sentence certainly gave me a chuckle.