Enemy Damage

[Luminara]

4 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

How did you determine this?

 

"It came to pass that Amun-Ra sailed through the house of Horus on his way to the Duat, and Osiris spake, 'Behold, Amun-Ra, for the players of City of Heroes and Villains, which they refer to as Cocks, will be Mostly Soloing, as this prophesy foretells, because I have written it after the fact!'.  And Amun-Ra spake, ''k.'"

[PeregrineFalcon]

7 minutes ago, Luminara said:

And Amun-Ra spake, ''k.'"

So say we all. So say we all!

[Maelwys]

18 minutes ago, WumpusRat said:

Isn't this just a rehash of the previous thread? It's literally the same argument, with the same AV, the same AT being played, etc.

 

So after getting shot down in that one, he just reposted it hoping for a better outcome?

 

Perhaps the stated topic is a ruse and this is really a test of the Forum's anti-one-shot code/streak breaker...?

[Frozen Burn]

1 hour ago, Ultimo said:

Thanks to all for the considered responses.  However, I think a significant point is being overlooked.  An enemy like Barracuda is a threat to both squishies and tanks, because while her damage is lower, she can sustain it longer because of her durability.  Against her, ANY character can at least make an attempt to fight back, whether squishy or not.  Against most other AVs, this is not the case.  If you can't make any effort to fight back, there's no GAME to play.

 

The argument, "get a tank," is unproductive, because most of us are soloing most of the time.

Resistances and such do help, but not much.  Having 75% resistance is meaningless if you're still taking 700 damage and you have 800 health.  The next hit still defeats you, so there's no fighting back.

Just "keeping back" also doesn't help much of the time.  I made a Mastermind and tested him in the AE against his "nemesis."  The nemesis threw a boulder at him (Hurl) and did about 70% of his health in one shot.  So, I kept back, and let his bots fight.  They needed healing, so I moved close enough to do that, and took another Hurl, and was instantly defeated.  There wasn't anything I could do but NOT BE THERE... which again, means there's no game.  Fighting the enemy is the game, for all ATs.  If you can't do it, there's no game.

 

However, I'll do another test, this time with a Tanker, and post the results for evaluation.

 

Again, I appreciate the discussion!

 

While the game is solo-friendly, it's not the case for all content.  Not all ATs or powersets can solo AVs, and some even with EBs.  If you are one of those, that's the "get a tank / meat-shield" response because this is in fact, an MMO where you you're meant to team.  

 

If you're struggling with soloing just even con bosses, then that is a strategy and playstyle problem that you need to learn - and that IS the game.  Walking through the park and just mowing everything is not a "game" - there is no risk - it's just something to do to eat up your time.  To solo better, there are temp powers you can get, there are inspires to use to max your defense and resistance and heal you... it seems you are not leveraging these things that are there to help you in gameplay and your survivability.

 

Wishing good luck!  🙂  

 

[lemming]

6 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Years ago, I ran a Champions pen and paper game, and came to the realization that most of the enemies published for the game were unusuable for exactly this reason. 

Geez.  I always had to upgrade the published villains if I used them.  (Which was usually because someone would use one as a hunted)

 

The other argument is covered pretty well.

[Biff Pow]

If an enemy only has one slowly recharging attack- yeah, it should do crazy damage.

[Jacke]

In a Lambda iTrial on my AR/Dev Blaster, I took an enraged Marauder's Nova Fist and lived to tell the tale.  Several times.

 

It was on the Toon's Power Mastery build while running Personal Force Field.  Which cut the damage so my Toon, with some MaxHP bonuses, had some HP left after taking Nova Fist.  And the Sustain Regen got things back to MaxHP fairly quickly.  Note there's no way I could keep Marauder's aggro with PFF up.  Except maybe putting out my Gun Drone, which likely wouldn't survive Nova Fist.

 

Not quite a useful tactic, but I thought it interesting.

[seebs]

I believe this argument is old enough to vote in the upcoming US election.

[Scarlet Shocker]

"I tried to solo something on a team game that I shouldn't be able to solo on said team game and it turns out I couldn't solo it on this team game so can we fix it so I can solo all the things please?"

[Andreah]

This thread reads like Deja Vu to me -- I'm pretty sure we've had very nearly exactly this discussion before in just the last couple of months.

[SeraphimKensai]

Doesn't seem like an issue as a taskforce isn't designed to be soloed. It was designed for a team to fight him and Crey.

[Andreah]

Here we are. Basically five pages three months ago on exactly the same topic by the same OP.  Is there something new to be said that wasn't covered before?

 

Edited August 25 by Andreah

[Glacier Peak]

27 minutes ago, Andreah said:

Here we are. Basically five pages three months ago on exactly the same topic by the same OP.  Is there something new to be said that wasn't covered before?

Gotta love the search function...

 

[Ultimo]

And, your point is what exactly?

 

Yes, I've brought up the issue before.  Other have brought it up before.  People have been bringing it up for 20 years.  So what?  If you think these browbeating, bullying tactics are going to make me stop posting my thoughts, think again.  I'll post what I like.  If you don't want to discuss it again, no one is making you read the thread.  If you're worried that the developers might actually change something in a way you don't approve of, don't worry.  They haven't changed it after all this time, they're not going to change it now.  Bullying me isn't going to make me stop posting.

Also, I take offense at the suggestion that I'm doing anything underhanded with my tests and numbers, so don't do that.  You're welcome to disagree, but don't be disagreeable.

 

My tests are based on a simple principle.  Since every character is going to encounter the same content, every character needs to be able to have fun DOING that content.  Squishies are going to have to fight AVs and EBs solo, so they need to be able to DO it.  Not necessarily WIN, just FIGHT.  The reason is that the fight is where the fun is.  If the fight is over in 2 seconds, there's no FUN being had.  Therefore, my tests specifically use characters with the lower defenses, since even these characters should be able to have the fun of actually fighting the enemies.

 

Perhaps it will help to put it in other terms.  I'm a hockey player, a goalie.  I would LOVE to play a game against NHL players, just to see what it's like.  I know I'd get slaughtered, but the outcome isn't the point.  It's the GAME that's fun.  If it was over in 2 seconds, there wouldn't be any fun.

 

I've not yet had a chance to do any further testing to post.  I'll post further analysis of that.

 

 

Also...

The Rikti Invasions thread had nothing to do with enemy difficulty.  It talked about making the invasions more engaging.

The quote from Enemy Design was a comment I made, not a thread.  That was someone else's thread.

The Silver Mantis thread wasn't about her damage, it was about trying to defeat her when she heals constantly.

The Something of an Experience thread did refer to Mr. G's extreme damage, but in the context that he was attacking me as I was coming out of an elevator, giving me no chance to defend myself.  You may remember that others noted having the same problem.

The Giant Monsters thread was started by someone else, and my comments were a little off topic, which is why I started THIS thread.  However, Giant Monster damage DID come up in the discussion, if you recall.

The Enemies and Damage thread described something of an aberration (ie. Hopkins doing 3000 damage, which is NOT normal for him), but is the only other thread directly on this topic that I've started recently.

 

So... ya.  Which of us is being deceptive here?

[seebs]

I think what's missing is the point where there's any kind of response to the questions or considerations people raise. Why are you doing these tests with exactly 0% resistance, for instance? Where are your defenses? Why are you in melee range on a mastermind if you're not in bodyguard mode?

[JKCarrier]

The game is pretty solo-friendly, by MMO standards. It's very possible to take a toon from 1 to 50 doing regular missions and never have to worry about facing an AV. I do it all the time. You can even solo your way through the Incarnate System, although it'll take you a while.

EBs are a pain, but there are ways around them. If I can't cheese them with START vendor powers, and my social anxiety won't let me ask for help, I'll just leave the mission unfinished and come back after I've levelled up a couple times. Or if I'm fed up and just want to move on, I can auto-complete it.

If the devs re-tuned the game so that even a dope like me could cruise through a Task Force solo, they'd lose half their playerbase overnight. The more skilled players (and there's a lot of them!) would be bored out of their minds.

If you want to experience every single challenge in the game, you need to either Git Gud, or Git Help. But if you're like me, and don't want to work that hard, you have to resign yourself to passing by some of the higher-end stuff.

[Scarlet Shocker]

5 hours ago, Ultimo said:

And, your point is what exactly?

 

Yes, I've brought up the issue before.  Other have brought it up before.  People have been bringing it up for 20 years.  So what?  If you think these browbeating, bullying tactics are going to make me stop posting my thoughts, think again.  I'll post what I like.  If you don't want to discuss it again, no one is making you read the thread.  If you're worried that the developers might actually change something in a way you don't approve of, don't worry.  They haven't changed it after all this time, they're not going to change it now.  Bullying me isn't going to make me stop posting.

Also, I take offense at the suggestion that I'm doing anything underhanded with my tests and numbers, so don't do that.  You're welcome to disagree, but don't be disagreeable.

 

My tests are based on a simple principle.  Since every character is going to encounter the same content, every character needs to be able to have fun DOING that content.  Squishies are going to have to fight AVs and EBs solo, so they need to be able to DO it.  Not necessarily WIN, just FIGHT.  The reason is that the fight is where the fun is.  If the fight is over in 2 seconds, there's no FUN being had.  Therefore, my tests specifically use characters with the lower defenses, since even these characters should be able to have the fun of actually fighting the enemies.

 

Perhaps it will help to put it in other terms.  I'm a hockey player, a goalie.  I would LOVE to play a game against NHL players, just to see what it's like.  I know I'd get slaughtered, but the outcome isn't the point.  It's the GAME that's fun.  If it was over in 2 seconds, there wouldn't be any fun.

 

I've not yet had a chance to do any further testing to post.  I'll post further analysis of that.

 

 

Also...

The Rikti Invasions thread had nothing to do with enemy difficulty.  It talked about making the invasions more engaging.

The quote from Enemy Design was a comment I made, not a thread.  That was someone else's thread.

The Silver Mantis thread wasn't about her damage, it was about trying to defeat her when she heals constantly.

The Something of an Experience thread did refer to Mr. G's extreme damage, but in the context that he was attacking me as I was coming out of an elevator, giving me no chance to defend myself.  You may remember that others noted having the same problem.

The Giant Monsters thread was started by someone else, and my comments were a little off topic, which is why I started THIS thread.  However, Giant Monster damage DID come up in the discussion, if you recall.

The Enemies and Damage thread described something of an aberration (ie. Hopkins doing 3000 damage, which is NOT normal for him), but is the only other thread directly on this topic that I've started recently.

 

So... ya.  Which of us is being deceptive here?

 

 

uh... pointing out you either have an agenda or you're fixated on a particular aspect of the game is not really bullying. It's simply pointing out that you have an agenda or a particular fixation.

[Snarky]

I do NOT have a fixation!   
 

Hold up, is that Mina?   BRB

[WuTang]

"Squishes" can be built tough, but due to the lower HP limits they can still be "1 shotted," it's just math. I've got a Dual Pistols/Time Manipulation Corruptor, between his defenses, -toHit debuffs, and damage debuffs I usually can stand toe-to-toe in melee with just about anything...for a while (not AVs though), but every now and again RNG doesn't roll my way and I'm left assessing the quality of the floor. But hey, that's what the team is for. They pick up the slack left by your corpse and then you rez or get rez'd and do it all over again. Even my best Brutes die from time to time when they get hit with the right combination of debuffs and damage type. And to be honest I'm never more embarrassed than when my Brute is humbled, my squishies go in knowing there is a good chance they get to taste the floor, it's actually just part of their diet at this point.

 

I don't think any damage output changes are necessary on the bad guy side, but I would like some damage types to get a buff *cough* smashing and lethal, but I don't see that coming either. One can dream though....

[tidge]

This again? Can't we at least mix up Hopkins in the Manticore TF for Jurassik in the Numina TF?

[Luminara]

7 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Also, I take offense at the suggestion that I'm doing anything underhanded with my tests and numbers

 

Oh, so when you repeatedly make claims which are proven to be false, it's not because you're trying to promote a narrative in which the game is unfair and push this campaign to have all enemy damage nerfed so you can solo AVs with your... concept builds, it's because there's just been a slight misunderstanding... every time?

 

On 4/2/2024 at 1:44 AM, Ultimo said:

Well.  FINALLY got past Silver Mantis.  Kicked Barracuda's butt, and then rescued Wretch.  Next mission, defeat Serafina.

 

I go into the mission, fight my way through to the room she's in.  She's showing up as a red EB, surrounded by about 12 Arachnos adds.  I go in, attack with three purples, three reds and three yellows running.  She attacks back and hits me for 1400 damage.

 

https://cod.uberguy.net/html/entity.html?entity=legacychain_serafina

 

Serafina's strongest attack only deals 1028.5941 damage, and that's at level 50 and using the AV tables, not the EB tables, but somehow, through some wild misunderstanding, she "hits (you) for 1400 damage"... on a /Elec brute with minimum 26.25 Psi Resistance... at level 36-37... 

 

On 5/21/2024 at 5:02 PM, Ultimo said:

He attacked me ONCE and did about 11k damage.  I have about 1k health.  He did enough damage to oneshot me 11 times over, in one attack.

 

And this report of 11,000 damage, or even the 3000 max that the AV could deal, at his max level (which you weren't fighting), if your defender had a massive pile of -Res stacked on it, that could not have occurred because you were had Steamy Mist active (20% Energy Resistance), even if the TF were set to Enemies Buffed, was a moment of confusion on someone's part, something that the rest of us somehow misread and definitely not an exaggeration?

 

And even in this very thread,

On 8/23/2024 at 4:00 PM, Ultimo said:

To test damage, I created an AE mission, and created a Minion, Lieutenant, Boss, Elite Boss and Arch Villian, all with only ONE power: KO Blow.  I then entered the mission with my Mastermind (he has 803.2 health at L50), turned on Invulnerability and let each of them hit me to see how much damage they did.  Here's what I found.

 

The Minion hit me for 555.3 damage.

The Lieutenant did 832.95 damage.

The Boss did 1388.26 damage.

The Elite Boss did 1943.57 damage.

The Arch Villain did 2498.88 damage.

 

ALL of these are excessive.

 

AE AV Level 50 KO Blow damage: 1715.5765 points of Smashing damage (all affected targets)

 

but, somehow, even with your character using Temp Invulnerability (30% Resistance Smashing/Lethal), and the enemy not having any other powers, thus not capable of stacking any -Res on you, this attack managed to deal nearly 50% more damage than the attack is actually capable of, isn't a false report on your part, it's just that none of us know how math works... or something...

 

Do you want me to keep going?  Should I pull up the original forum archives and show your posts from the old days, in which you falsify data in exactly the same way and push for exactly the same agenda, and backpedal exactly like you've done here?

 

8 hours ago, Ultimo said:

Which of us is being deceptive here?

 

Really?

Really?

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, Snarky said:

I do NOT have a fixation!   
 

Hold up, is that Mina?   BRB

 

judging by the state of your coffin bed I can say with a high degree of confidence that you have many many fixations dear

[Skyhawke]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

This again? Can't we at least mix up Hopkins in the Manticore TF for Jurassik in the Numina TF?

 

Countess Crey: Hopkins, you're fired!

 

Jurassik: Graaaaaraagh!

 

Countess Crey: 

[ZemX]

1 hour ago, Luminara said:

but, somehow, even with your character using Temp Invulnerability (30% Resistance Smashing/Lethal)

 

Minor confusion here.  I assume when he said he turned on "invulnerability", he meant some AE feature where you take no damage while testing a mission.  Makes sense if you just want to record damage numbers.

 

His AE numbers in this thread, unlike his wild AV fight numbers of yore, actually make sense.  They match exactly the damage you'd take with zero smashing resistance at level 50 vs a +4 enemy (level 54 damage number x 1.44 for purple patch).   Not that this is a good argument either.  His numbers are right for the AE stuff he quoted, but the situation is still indefensible.  He's going up against +4 solo with no protections.  Apparently no bodyguard.  No secondary buffs for his minions.   No oranges.   No Tough.   

 

This game does not guarantee ANYONE the ability to solo at +4 let alone someone who has gone in effectively buck naked in order to win an Internet argument.

[Andreah]

Well, at least now the entertainment value of the thread meets min spec!