The Paradox of the Well of the Furies

[Scarlet Shocker]

Those of you who pay any attention to how I feel about Incarnates know how much I hate the sloppy writing and story.

 

I don't hate the principle of getting more power, becoming stronger or generally improving what my character does as a hero (or villain) but how poorly that story was bolted on to the game as a "that'll give them end game, screw making it make sense."

 

It was poorly conceived, and poorly executed and gave us dross like TPN where a civilian can throw a rock at a super-powerful entity and nail them because handwave. It delves shallowly into ancient Greek mythos and comes up wanting. In my opinion, it fails at almost every single turn...

 

and yet despite it's best (worst) efforts, the actual power progression isn't bad. The Incarnate power trees and abilities are mostly ok (except Lore which is horrific.) It does give your character power and it does actually feel like you've earned something.

 

BUT...

if you read the story, the Well of the Furies acknowledges power and gifts itself to those who show it.

 

But you'll never be as powerful as the signature characters, and they don't show any evidence of the Well blessing them. So what is it doing?

 

I don't trust the "Well of the Furies" for so many many reasons - not the least of which is that nobody is able to tell us what it is. Which in itself is stupid considering that in Paragon, the Rogue Isles and Praetoria we have access to amazing technicians, scientists, magicians and sensei who could guide and help us mere player characters in checking out what it is.

 

Frankly the whole story stopped me reading the game lore because it's so badly broken at this point.

 

Why is it that this mysterious power will gift itself to you but you still can't beat up your trainer? Your trainer should, logically be the one to receive the benefits of WotF. Even low level signature characters such as Bobcat need an army of Incarnate imbued folk to slap her down - and the Hamidon has them all beat so why doesn't the Well gve Hami its power then taking over the whole game world?

 

Odysseus seems to get a slice of it, and even Positron gets more than his fair share but you can rip that from under his nose and steal the Flames of Prometheus.

 

It seems so fractured that the Well can do whatever it likes and holds to no game logic or semblance of reason.

 

Is it too late to scrub it from the game and come up with something that makes sense in terms of game lore and human logic?

[tidge]

34 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Is it too late to scrub it from the game and come up with something that makes sense in terms of game lore and human logic?

 Yes.

 

I personally don't care for any of the "Incarnate Content" (not a hater, more like lingering "meh" from Live subscriptions), but I don't think any of them needed to be "Incarnate Level" content. Obviously these have been scaled for the higher power levels, but whatever tie they have to "gotta be an Incarnate" seems very tenuous to me.

[PeregrineFalcon]

48 minutes ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Is it too late to scrub it from the game and come up with something that makes sense in terms of game lore and human logic?

As in scrub all actual in game references to it? Yeah, probably.

 

However, head canon is a wonderful thing. What would you replace it with if you had the ability to do so?

[Jacke]

We have this Incarnate System that we use to get more Powers to play with.

 

And there's all sorts of stories told to us to explain all this.

 

And we're still not quite equal to the Signature Supers.

 

Hmmm.....

 

....

 

Me thinks there's a lot of porkies being told here.

 

Talk about your unreliable narrators.

 

It'll be hard.  But perhaps try to figure out what's behind all this by what it does, not whatever tall tales we've been told.

 

 

[keyguardactive]

I'm a band-aid fix guy. I do my thing over in the corner and try not to contradict the main lore. 

 

My Incarnates are all wielding part of an artifact that, like Excalibur with Hero 1, gives them Incarnate abilities. They started out less powerful than the signature heroes, so even bumped up they're not really on Positron's level. 

 

As for the main lore? I kind of like that there's something where all the big brains of Paragon are stumped. That it defies comprehension. Everybody's scanning and aura reading and trying to nail down how the Well works and the answer just always comes back "We know it does work, but this is something that, if we did understand it, would probably drive us jibberingly, Lovecraftian levels of mad." 

[Snarky]

Squirrels.  The squirrels ate the phlogiston.  Now the only way to get power ( and a decent cup of cocoa) is to boil the squirrel crap and drink it.  Then you become more powerful. Squirrels…

[FFFF]

Yeah this is one of those times that further explanation doesn't help, actually hurts the narrative. I remember the explanation of Midichlorians as being the reason the Force works in the Phantom Menace and I hated it.

[mechahamham]

Something that new pen-and-paper GMs get told, and some older GMs forget is 'Your NPCs are not the main characters of the story. Your players are the main characters.'

 

Lots of MMOs fail MISERABLY at achieving this. Your characters are just along for the ride with the signature/mascot/box characters' quests.

 

CoH does reasonably well with this up to a point. In most cases that point is 'We have to make the allies and antagonists interesting enough that people want to play in that world, but not quite so central that they outshine the player.'

 

Dr. Graves' arc is GREAT for this. Twinshot fails pretty bad, but not entirely. The interesting characters are newbie antagonists.

 

However, Cryptic and Paragon threw 'the player is the main character' concept out the window, found where it fell, and then crapped on it for the sake of having raid content. Suddenly the main character is not the player, nor even the raid leader. It's the central NPC character, enemy or ally. It's the person who's in the middle of the cutscene. In Lambda Sector, it's Marauder and whoever gets the position right to teabag Marauder while he's drinking his potion. In BAF, it's Mother Mayhem's (Actually Aurora's) huge pair of... Anyway. In UGT, it's Desdemona, and so on.

 

In Dilemma Diabolique, the raid leader is standing *behind* the Dream Doctor when he pulls out the Dagger of Jocas. Way to effin' go making the rest of the raid tagalongs there, Paragon.

 

*sigh*

 

In the later content in general, there's this trend towards having the various signature NPCs be the main character, the Praetorians especially so. It kinds flops in to even otherwise excellent low-level content. Why do we need to find out that Back Alley Brawler got humiliated while piloting his attacker/bully? When that arc dropped, we already had all the technology to make that story happen within the context of the arc itself, but instead the player is not only not the main character, but doesn't even APPEAR.

 

In early CoH, it was pretty obvious that the reason that they trotted out so much Greek Mythology was that Greek Mythology is GENERIC as Great Value Brand Kitty Litter. It's been done to death since the Bronze Age. Because it's so generic, that means there's this huge open space for players to create their own stories, be they some other mythology, aliens, super scientists, or wannabe world dictators.

 

7 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

and yet despite it's best (worst) efforts, the actual power progression isn't bad.

 

Unlike others in the thread, I don't think that the power progression or the balance around incarnates is good at all. I think it's horrid in its pacing and repetitiveness and detrimental to the entire rest of the game in terms of balance. If you get more than a team of Incarnate-level players in a zone invasion event, it's hard to contribute to the fight at all if you're not one of them. It encourages players to build their characters around Incarnate abilities and scream bloody murder if they have to play at lower levels without those abilities.

 

I think the one thing Paragon did right when introducing the Incarnate system was to make the Well of the Furies story so vague and self-conflicting that they once again opened up that huge space for players to create their own stories, be it holding a special artifact, evolving into a being greater than humanity, or simply being a literal deity.

Edited September 14 by mechahamham

[Snarky]

4 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Something that new pen-and-paper GMs get told, and some older GMs forget is 'Your NPCs are not the main characters of the story. Your players are the main characters.'

 

Lots of MMOs fail MISERABLY at achieving this. Your characters are just along for the ride with the signature/mascot/box characters' quests.

WoW fails it this both ways.  They create a world, which as usual is based on the epic actions of others.  standard, and a fail.

 

Then every character in WoW is THE "speaker of the horde" "first alliance member to discover" etc.   It's like going to Disneyland and paying $200 to be "Mickey's best friend ever" only to walk through the gate and see 4000 people with the same hat "Mickeys Best Friend Ever"

 

the Well is ill decsribed and out of the way enough not to bother me

 

Edited September 14 by Snarky

[GM Crumpet]

In Mender Ramiel's arc it's explained that if you accept the wells offer and take your full power you become phenomenally powerful but end up under the control of the well. You have free will, but that will can be overridden when it feels the need to do so. Statesman accepted that and didn't dare unleash his full power, Recluse understood that and spent vast resources trying to circumvent the well so he could unleash his full power. Players go the long way round and therefore don't fall under the sway of the well. The incarnates we see and play aren't fully incarnated yet. 

 

I think if the game had continued we'd have learned more as the Battalion was supposed to be kind of the anti-well and absorbed it's power to increase their power. And yes, you as players are along for the ride where the NPC is the main character. Apparently

Spoiler

Dream Doctor was supposed to merge with Rularruu and sacrifice himself in the end to put a stop to the Battalion. DD was supposed to be an avatar or alternative version of Rularruu and joined forces with Hamidon to give the Battalion a good spanking. Earth would have been left to Hamidon as payment and humanity would have shifted to an alternative Earth leading into City of Heroes 2.

  All speculation from AMA's after the game was shut down of course, so not exactly canon.

[Scarlet Shocker]

10 hours ago, Snarky said:

Squirrels.  The squirrels ate the phlogiston.  Now the only way to get power ( and a decent cup of cocoa) is to boil the squirrel crap and drink it.  Then you become more powerful. Squirrels…

 

Squirrel Girl defeated Dr Doom without any weird hokey pokey. Never forget that!

 

6 hours ago, mechahamham said:

Something that new pen-and-paper GMs get told, and some older GMs forget is 'Your NPCs are not the main characters of the story. Your players are the main characters.'

 

Lots of MMOs fail MISERABLY at achieving this. Your characters are just along for the ride with the signature/mascot/box characters' quests.

 

CoH does reasonably well with this up to a point. In most cases that point is 'We have to make the allies and antagonists interesting enough that people want to play in that world, but not quite so central that they outshine the player.'

 

That is one of my bugbears with the end game content. To me, it seemed that when Matt Miller became Lead Dev the whole end-game story became a Positron wank-fest and that sucked. Bigly. The warning signs were there on the ITF of course.

1 hour ago, GM Crumpet said:

 

 

I think if the game had continued we'd have learned more as the Battalion was supposed to be kind of the anti-well and absorbed it's power to increase their power. And yes, you as players are along for the ride where the NPC is the main character. Apparently

 

All speculation from AMA's after the game was shut down of course, so not exactly canon.

 

I deleted the spoiler here in case it got revealed but that sounds bloody awful and would almost certainly killed the game.  I have never heard or read this but if true, I'm almost glad that the game got cancelled when it did and I've never imagined myself saying that.

[Andreah]

In a successful MMO, there are too many players for them to be the main characters, and I hate it when MMO's try anyway.

[Techwright]

While I agree the composition could have been much better, I do think there's a few things to consider.  Building on @GM Crumpet reminder of game lore, I'd note that (at least in my observations)

 

• no Incarnate has received power from the Well, small or significant, without interacting with an imbued element first.  Whether fountain or pottery sherd, there was something to interact with.  We've not seen anything (that I can recall) where the Well took notice of a being of natural power and arbitrarily threw power their way.

 

• Our characters are taking the slow path, which it is implied may take centuries to complete.  It is natural, therefore, to understand we won't be as powerful for a while as certain NPCs, and even longer for us to be more powerful then they are.  We've also not unlocked everything.  Admittedly we technically have, due to where the game ended, but had it continued, there'd have been more categories to work towards.

 

• That a master is less powerful than a student does not mean that master cannot still teach said student.  Training involves observation, wisdom, and guidance in refinement.  If one day our characters are more powerful than the trainer, it does not mean we cannot learn from them.  I mean, just look at Kung Fu Panda.  😉

 

• The lack of a full explanation of the Well of Furies by story characters is not necessarily a failure in writing.  There's significant mysteries in the real world that are only partially understood.  Astronomy, for example, hardly goes a month without some new discovery that challenges the status quo of understanding.  Likewise the human body is "understood", but there are a host of discoveries ongoing that challenge our thinking as to what we are, how we're put together, and how it all works.   I realize the world of CoH is a glorified comic book, but that doesn't mean all answers have to be laid out in short order.

 

• The Well is essentially the game's version of Star Wars' The Force, a sentient power that ultimately is inscrutable. 

 

 

Edited September 14 by Techwright
Added text for clarity.

[Erratic1]

17 minutes ago, Andreah said:

In a successful MMO, there are too many players for them to be the main characters, and I hate it when MMO's try anyway.

 

The conceit in most MMOs is that you are the main character (except when NPCs get that distinction). It is not like from a given player's vantage point they are seeing what most of the other players are doing. -=YOU=- bring down the Big Bad...doesn't matter if other people and groups do it, your story is YOUR story.

[Luminara]

A pair of ducks in the well?

 

 

Yes.

 

And now my Saturday is shot, because I'm going to spend all day looking at duck gifs.

[tidge]

Twilight's Son: "THEY ARE EATING THE KHELDIANS!"

[Scarlet Shocker]

2 hours ago, Luminara said:

A pair of ducks in the well?

 

 

Yes.

 

And now my Saturday is shot, because I'm going to spend all day looking at duck gifs.

 

Ducking gifs sounds ... wrong

 

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Twilight's Son: "THEY ARE EATING THE KHELDIANS!"

 

I lolled!

[Hyperstrike]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Twilight's Son: "THEY ARE EATING THE KHELDIANS!"

Trolololololol!

[Jacke]

2 hours ago, tidge said:

Twilight's Son: "THEY ARE EATING THE KHELDIANS!"

 

"Coming soon!  Soylent Purple!"

[Ukase]

22 hours ago, Scarlet Shocker said:

Is it too late to scrub it from the game and come up with something that makes sense in terms of game lore and human logic?

Well, no, it's not too late. But, it's a slippery slope, right? 

Does it really make sense that Hamidon somehow just empties it's pockets and suddenly you have an ability to augment your own power? I try to look at it like Iron Man defeating Dr. Doom, and finding a way to utilize some gizmo from Doom's armor and using it in his own. But it's a tough sell. Mainly because most of my characters don't have armored suits, at least, not like theirs. I mean, how would Sue Storm use one of those gadgets? All the science and ingenuity Reed Richards came up with, I don't think I ever saw him use a ray gun. (he could have, I didn't get to read every issue) 

I think for best results, use your own imagination, come up with your own story for it - and make something in the AE. 

[GM Crumpet]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Well, no, it's not too late. But, it's a slippery slope, right? 

Does it really make sense that Hamidon somehow just empties it's pockets and suddenly you have an ability to augment your own power? I try to look at it like Iron Man defeating Dr. Doom, and finding a way to utilize some gizmo from Doom's armor and using it in his own. But it's a tough sell. Mainly because most of my characters don't have armored suits, at least, not like theirs. I mean, how would Sue Storm use one of those gadgets? All the science and ingenuity Reed Richards came up with, I don't think I ever saw him use a ray gun. (he could have, I didn't get to read every issue) 

I think for best results, use your own imagination, come up with your own story for it - and make something in the AE. 

Don't look too closely at enhancements. A lot of them involve replacing body parts!!

[seebs]

As a programmer/techie in general, I'm pretty much just used to "you don't need to know how the furries run everything, but they do", so I just assume it's a typo and is actually the Well of the Furries and then whatever it does is pretty sensible.

[Snarky]

8 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

Don't look too closely at enhancements. A lot of them involve replacing body parts!!

If we are discussing enhancements 

 

Edited September 15 by Snarky

[Scarlet Shocker]

12 hours ago, Ukase said:

Well, no, it's not too late. But, it's a slippery slope, right? 

Does it really make sense that Hamidon somehow just empties it's pockets and suddenly you have an ability to augment your own power? I try to look at it like Iron Man defeating Dr. Doom, and finding a way to utilize some gizmo from Doom's armor and using it in his own. But it's a tough sell. Mainly because most of my characters don't have armored suits, at least, not like theirs. I mean, how would Sue Storm use one of those gadgets? All the science and ingenuity Reed Richards came up with, I don't think I ever saw him use a ray gun. (he could have, I didn't get to read every issue) 

I think for best results, use your own imagination, come up with your own story for it - and make something in the AE. 

 

Fair point.

 

I remember reading the comics - and I think there Positron tells someone to "grab yourself an enhancement on the way out!"

To me that implies they are a physical thing - but exactly what they are is ephemeral at the same time, so yeah...

 

But we also know that Mender Silos and his crew of ne'er do-wells, with a very very dodgy past, are less than straight with us poor saps who they are recruiting for a battle at the end of time. (Something I cannot decide is more influenced by Michael Moorcock or Douglas Adams.) It would be relatively easy to say "they're lying to you" and turn that into a thing - they say it's the Well, Posi couldn't disprove that, but then it turns out to be something else entirely (Or perhaps it is a kind of well but not how they described.)

 

11 hours ago, GM Crumpet said:

Don't look too closely at enhancements. A lot of them involve replacing body parts!!

 

Now we definitely know where your dodgy threads come from! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Jesting aside I think the whole concept of Enhancements is one of the game's strengths. It's not tied to gear, and it allows extreme flexibility - especially with ED* which kind of forces it. But that made the playing experience so much better than immediately going after the next bit of +X gear you need to "complete" your build.

 

4 hours ago, seebs said:

...so I just assume it's a typo and is actually the Well of the Furries and then whatever it does is pretty sensible.

 

Aside from your deliberate typo which puts a very different slant on everything in game - I kind of agree. I spent my first decade not looking under the hood to see how the game worked, just to keep the freshness and enjoyment going for as long as possible - and that worked, by and large. But in any world, you would always have someone curious enough to keep behind the curtain and wonder what that strange bald man is doing wiggling those controls.

 

 

Conclusion: I think there's more that can be done with the story, and make it interesting as well as exciting - but it would take some skill and craft to do so and probably conflicts terribly with all the plans that the Devs currently have. And even if it didn't, I doubt they'd tell us 😀

 

 

 

_{*I know, heresy, right? 🤪}

 

[Britannic]

I liked to imagine that the "intelligence" behind the Well isn't actually a part of it and more an entity that uses them to gain control and power over and from those that try to access it. This entity just disguises itself as being the originator of the Wells when really it's more like Mother Mayhem/Shadow King, leeching off its host.

 

Incidentally, and though I've never liked "The Battalion" idea as stated, I also thought maybe the reason they're destroying the Wells isn't just for power as put forward by dubious sources, but that they're trying to eliminate this parasitic entity. The Battalion just resorted to a 'scorched earth' policy to do so.

Edited September 15 by Britannic