The Freedom Phalanx: why the hatred?

[JKCarrier]

14 hours ago, Widower said:

Man, you've got an axe to grind! Next you'll probably be blaming Statesman for your ED...

Enhancement Diversification? 😄 

[TerroirNoir2]

I'll put one spin on this. We don't really know them.  Almost none of the material in game gives us a feel for who they are.  We have (and it's probably due to the later writing period) a better understanding of their Praetorian counterparts. 

 

When I have the time I play a lot of AE material (though my time is very constrained these days) and through the eyes of some authors I've had my character interact with and more importantly get to know NPCs. @Ankylosaur has done this with Wyvern and a few others. @cranebump has fleshed out an entire Kings Row worth of characters, including Hollow Point as a more rounded yet still nasty individual, and @Darmian's use of the Meteors (those NPCs standing around speaking to the press and public in Atlas Park) is well worth seeing for character development. Every time I run into an FP member in game I have none of this, no matter how often I do. I think others agree with me, I believe @Zhym does.

 

So respect for the FP can happen but we need to see them close up and properly in various arcs.

[Troo]

[Ukase]

Hatred? Of who? 
Positron? His armor is ugly...but besides that...
Numina? I can barely see her. 
Penelope Yin? She sure can twerk! (See the cutscene in one of Mr. G's arcs.) 
Citadel? I don't know anything about this dude. Other than he's weak and always uses the medi-porter when I'm doing the Pandora's Box 5/5 SSA. 
Manticore? Other than his costume and hair are all the same color, I have no beef with him. 

Synapse? Just another weak hero. The guy we have to thank for "Flurry". 
Statesman was really the only one I thought was interesting. I never looked at Stateman like he was Jack Emmert. Why would I? Jack is a real dude, and Statesman is a bunch of pixels. 

[TerroirNoir2]

1 minute ago, Ukase said:

Hatred? Of who? 
Positron? His armor is ugly...but besides that...
Numina? I can barely see her. 
Penelope Yin? She sure can twerk! (See the cutscene in one of Mr. G's arcs.) 
Citadel? I don't know anything about this dude. Other than he's weak and always uses the medi-porter when I'm doing the Pandora's Box 5/5 SSA. 
Manticore? Other than his costume and hair are all the same color, I have no beef with him. 

Synapse? Just another weak hero. The guy we have to thank for "Flurry". 
Statesman was really the only one I thought was interesting. I never looked at Stateman like he was Jack Emmert. Why would I? Jack is a real dude, and Statesman is a bunch of pixels. 

That kind of reinforces my point that we don't know them.

[JasperStone]

1 hour ago, JKCarrier said:

Enhancement Diversification? 😄 

I thought it was  Enhancement Demands ... just pop a blue.

 

 

...

oops wrong blue

Edited October 17 by JasperStone

[tidge]

A friendly reminder: Villains can face the Freedom Phalanx at the end of "Who Will Die?" SSA mission #1, provided that you stick around for them to come and check on Synapse.

[Snarky]

38 minutes ago, JasperStone said:

I thought it was  Enhancement Demands ... just pop a blue.

 

 

...

oops wrong blue

you want enhancement?  talk to Da Man!

 

[Darmian]

3 hours ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

I'll put one spin on this. We don't really know them.  Almost none of the material in game gives us a feel for who they are.  We have (and it's probably due to the later writing period) a better understanding of their Praetorian counterparts. 

 

When I have the time I play a lot of AE material (though my time is very constrained these days) and through the eyes of some authors I've had my character interact with and more importantly get to know NPCs. @Ankylosaur has done this with Wyvern and a few others. @cranebump has fleshed out an entire Kings Row worth of characters, including Hollow Point as a more rounded yet still nasty individual, and @Darmian's use of the Meteors (those NPCs standing around speaking to the press and public in Atlas Park) is well worth seeing for character development. Every time I run into an FP member in game I have none of this, no matter how often I do. I think others agree with me, I believe @Zhym does.

 

So respect for the FP can happen but we need to see them close up and properly in various arcs.

I agree with not knowing them and with knowing their Goldside versions better.  Having read the novels I have my own feel for the FP, especially Statesman who comes across very well in the first one.  Alas this isn't transmitted in game - although there's sideways reference to the second novel in Who Will Die? - and the comics give IMO a slightly wonkier take on the FP.  But a set of arcs akin to the Patron arcs perhaps would give more exposure to the FP as people you know.  

 

(Thanks for the vote of appreciation @TerroirNoir2!  Myself and the others do our best.)

[BZRKR]

7 hours ago, MoonSheep said:

red squirrel man getting a lot of hate on this thread, no wonder LRSF’s are so easy to fill

If only he was actually Squirrel based, maybe people would like him more 🙂

[High_Beam]

In game, story-wise I never had beef with any of them and I never associated real life people's personalities with their characters personalities other than those that I had direct interaction with (i.e. Positron and War Witch).  I liked most of the phalanx characters and their sidekick Squad the Vindicators.  I liked Statesman, iconic, heroic; he shouldn't have been killed the way he was.  I did not care for Psyches obsession with Platforms (wretched cheat of a shoe).  Synapse, Numina and Bastion/Citadel were fillers and Positron was the Task Force you hated back in the day not Synapse and thus I developed this weird sadistic respect for Posi.

 

The Phalanx was set as a template even if they were dated, they were a thing for which your character could aspire to or to be greater than.  The release of CoV messed that up and there are still times when I wish it had never happened; just given us new zones to play in and the new ATs.  CoV diminished the story and the heroism of the Phalanx and the game as a whole.  This is how I feel.

 

But the game moved forward and thus heroes leave but i will always like the Phalanx, old and new and proudly wear my Badge

 

[Andreah]

I've never felt they were needed for CoH, especially as they're perpetually in an overshadowing position relative to players' characters. Having a pantheon of overpowered villains to oppose makes more sense.  Once CoV was out, I can see the need for them, but again, as foils for the villains, not for the heroes. 

 

The other part that always troubled me is that developers took on their identities as avatars, and some of them were even inserts from developers' pre-employment at Cryptic days. That shouldn't have been a thing, imo. But City of, was a new thing, and even MMO's were very new then, and I give them a pass for hindsight.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Andreah said:

The other part that always troubled me is that developers took on their identities as avatars, and some of them were even inserts from developers' pre-employment at Cryptic days. That shouldn't have been a thing, imo. But City of, was a new thing, and even MMO's were very new then, and I give them a pass for hindsight.

 

RIP Lord British.

[OEM61]

20 hours ago, biostem said:

I would argue that much of the "hatred" stems from necessary game mechanics - essentially, these "signature heroes", (and villains, for that matter), can't actually do anything - they stand around, give out quests/TFs, and sometimes make appearances in missions, but due to the multiplayer nature of CoH, can't have any meaningful impact on the rest of the game.  If this were a single-player game, they could have more of an impact, as could each player's individual contributions.

 

From a more general standpoint, it would be cool if, for instance, a player defeated one of them as a villain, switched sides, then encounters them again, and they acknowledge their prior defeat and/or other such accomplishments...

But they could.

Fusionette and Doc Delilah join us,  Different Shining Stars help us during those arcs.  There are a lot of examples of NPC heroes showing up in our missions, so Ms. Liberty or Positron or whoever could do the same.

Granted, it should be high-level/endgame content since those are the top heroes in the game world, but it could be done.

As far as hatred?
I think that there are 3 main reasons.  Verious people may have outsized problems with someone's costume or something, but for the most part, I think it comes down to one of these:

1 - The actions of the devs associated with the characters.  This won't apply to every one of them, certainly not equally, but neither is the hate.

2 - The way that the game, or possibly novels or comics, treats the characters.  Simple as.  If a player/reader doesn't like the character then they don't like them.  This could be things like Manticore's actions during the "Shining Stars" arc(s), Positron finding a cure for his condition so he could take the helmet off, and much more.

3 - The comparison to a player's own character.  People may have some resentment that their favorite toon can never have the accolades that Positron or Synapse or whoever have in the game universe, but in the game itself they are just standing around while your toon is out there getting things done.

Edited October 17 by OEM61

[Andreah]

52 minutes ago, OEM61 said:

3 - The comparison to a player's own character.  People may have some resentment that their favorite toon can never have the accolades that Positron or Synapse or whoever have in the game universe, but in the game itself they are just standing around while your toon is out there getting things done.

I think this is a lot of it, but it's honestly unavoidable in MMO's from that time period. And may well still be -- can we we all be the main character of such a large shared universe? I would argue that a large shared universe should not have main characters as such.

[Jiro Ito]

For me, it's all tied to what we know about them in the game.  As others have said, we don't know much about them from the in-game task forces and other hero side content.  Because my brain works in a certain way, I keep wanting the Freedom Phalanx and their tasks to be organized differently, and more personal to them.  That, and the drawn-out, defeat-all, time consuming design strategy of the early task forces gives me anxiety of the mere mention of their name...Citadel?  Endless defeat-alls in Council caves?  Shudder...

 

Synapse - this dude's entire torturous existence is thanks to Crey, but his task force has you chasing down the Clockwork King?

 

Blue Steel - this guy should have the Clockwork King task force, and there's so much opportunity to make it personal to him, and explore his heroics and less-than-heroic actions, and really take a this story to a meaningful place.  Do we ultimately place Blue Steel under arrest, along with CWK?

 

Penny - the newest task force with the best design, and the one for whom I have the least animosity, strangely!  She would be another good option for the Clockwork King task force as well though, but it would need to be rewritten as something that was more personal to her and explored their connection.  Has that been covered enough by the Faultline arcs and Lady Grey TF?  Maybe!  Maybe she figures into Blue Steel's CWK task force!  Give me all the lore.

 

Positron - also has a backstory with Crey, lost control of his powers in the Rikti war, but his task force in any form is all low-level enemies.  The reworked task forces are a massive improvement on the old design though.

 

Citadel - also has history with Crey and the Rikti.  This is my least favorite TF.  He was Bastion, now he's Citadel?  Can we play out that story, instead of 20 kill-alls inside Council Caves?

 

Manticore - "Keep it together, Shalice!"  The guy who actually does give out the Crey task force, but has his personal history is all the 5th Column.  As least Twin Shot has us interacting with him more so we can get to know him on some level.

 

Numina - the magical Midnighter Princess sends us off to fight Crey, Nemesis, Freakshow, Devoured Earth, every tech-powered and science-experiment-gone-awry enemy in the level range, but nothing magical?  

 

Back Alley Brawler - justice for BABS!  Why not swap him out for the sole Atlas Park trainer, now that Ms. Liberty gives out her TF (which is great, and personal to her with her relationship to Recluse).  Or give BABS a Superdine task force.  Or a retake-Galaxy-City task force.  Or something.  He may be my favorite of the Freedom Phalanx-slash-Regulator-who-always-appears-with-the-Freedom-Phalanx-inconsistent-lore-alert, because we know so much about his history.  Bro just needs something to do besides stand in a corner of Atlas Park.

 

 

Overall, I think the villain-side missions give us way better insight into the Freedom Phalanx than we get from their own missions.  Dr Forrester teaches us more about Citadel than Citadel does, Tavish Bell gives us more to do with Synapse, Kuhr'Rekt has us working more with Positron, etc etc.  Obviously the mission design philosophy that gave us the first task forces changed over time, and the villains-side patron arcs that came after are wonderful deep dives into the big-named villains' strengths, weaknesses and motivations.  Who Will Die is a nice step in the right direction.  More like that please.  I just don't know if it will ever be enough to overcome my hate of Citadel's TF.  Seriously.  

Edited October 18 by Jiro Ito
PS I know Blue Steel is a Regulator-slash-PPD-slash-violent-unprosecuted-criminal

[High_Beam]

51 minutes ago, Jiro Ito said:

A bunch of stuff which made a butt ton of sense.

Sir or Ma'am, I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

[Andreah]

1 hour ago, Jiro Ito said:

For me, <snip/snip of good stuff snip/snip>  Seriously.  

 

I agree. The hero side FF suffer from the early design of City of Heroes; City of Villains benefited from considerable lessons learned about how to write stories in an MMO.

 

If the resources were there today to rework it all, I'm sure a tremendous improvement could be made, both in making their task forces more consistent to their backgrounds, and making the contributions of player-heroes and our interactions with the FF members be more satisfying.

[Zhym]

10 hours ago, TerroirNoir2 said:

I'll put one spin on this. We don't really know them.  Almost none of the material in game gives us a feel for who they are.  We have (and it's probably due to the later writing period) a better understanding of their Praetorian counterparts. 

 

When I have the time I play a lot of AE material (though my time is very constrained these days) and through the eyes of some authors I've had my character interact with and more importantly get to know NPCs. @Ankylosaur has done this with Wyvern and a few others. @cranebump has fleshed out an entire Kings Row worth of characters, including Hollow Point as a more rounded yet still nasty individual, and @Darmian's use of the Meteors (those NPCs standing around speaking to the press and public in Atlas Park) is well worth seeing for character development. Every time I run into an FP member in game I have none of this, no matter how often I do. I think others agree with me, I believe @Zhym does.

 

So respect for the FP can happen but we need to see them close up and properly in various arcs.

Yup, I agree with you. 

 

I have basically two problems with the Freedom Phalanx* (and, to a lesser extent, the Vindicators):

 

First, there's no justification for holding them up as better than any PC here.  They're supposed to be CoX's version of the Avengers or the Justice League: Paragon's Greatest Heroes or whatever.  But we never actually see them do anything.  My main has saved the world multiple times, kicked Lord Arachnos's ass, and even helped thwart a multidimensional invasion.  What did Statesman ever do?  Who has Statesman saved?  What crisis has he averted?  What deeds of heroism and daring has he done to earn his status as the ultimate hero we're supposed to look up to (literally, now that he has a statute on Kallisti Wharf)?  Jack squat, as far as I can tell.  When it comes to the Freedom Phalanx, CoX has a serious case of telling instead of showing.

 

More importantly though, they're unnecessary.  The great thing about CoX is that it's not tied to a particular IP.  If you're playing DC Online, you will never, ever get to be Batman or Superman.  Not allowed.  You will always be like a sidekick or a Mary Sue in their world.  Same with Marvel: there are certain characters (lots of them!) who will always be the stars.  But CoX doesn't have to be tied down by existing IP.  We can be the greatest heroes of this world!  Or we could be, if the designers hadn't thought we needed a cheap knockoff of the Avengers or Justice League.

 

So, basically, the Freedom Phalanx and Vindicators are pretenders who haven't earned their status.  That's why I don't really care for them.  You could remove them from the game entirely and very little would be lost.

 

Oh, and the fact that they're basically vanity characters for the devs (DM NPCs, to borrow a term from RPGs) doesn't help.

 

* Except Penny.  Penny is my bestie.  Not coincidentally, she's also the best developed of the Freedom Phalanx characters, with an arc that shows her development and personality to an extent that no other FP member gets.

Edited October 18 by Zhym

[TerroirNoir2]

6 minutes ago, Zhym said:

Except Penny.  Penny is my bestie.  Not coincidentally, she's also the best developed of the Freedom Phalanx characters, with an arc that shows her development and personality to an extent that no other FP member gets.

LOL.  Perhaps!  I'll hang out with Madame Maven and her team any day of the week though.

[Zhym]

Also: If the Freedom Phalanx are that great, why aren't they doing something about all the crime in Paragon City instead of just standing around training people?  There are purse snatchers less than 200 feet away from Ms. Liberty, and she just stands there.  Positron's even worse: crimes are going on right next to him and he can't be bothered to do anything because they con grey to him—no XP. 

 

"Heroes" my ass. :)

[Darmian]

9 minutes ago, Zhym said:

Also: If the Freedom Phalanx are that great, why aren't they doing something about all the crime in Paragon City instead of just standing around training people?  There are purse snatchers less than 200 feet away from Ms. Liberty, and she just stands there.  Positron's even worse: crimes are going on right next to him and he can't be bothered to do anything because they con grey to him—no XP. 

 

"Heroes" my ass. 🙂

Time for me to chime in!  Not EVERYONE stands still when their city is in danger! 

 

Edited October 18 by Darmian

[UltraAlt]

21 hours ago, lemming said:

I was heavily involved with Hero at the time.    The IP of the Champions world was what was licensed.  I forget the details, but the MMO was built with Marvel in mind, Marvel backed out, so they went with the Champions Universe except for two characters.   The rules set was never part of it, just the world setting.

While I like the 6th edition, I didn't ttrpg nearly as much and drifted away from the Hero system.  Champions Complete is 6th edition, but a bit more digestible.

 

"...On February 28, 2008, Cryptic Studios announced they had purchased the entire Champions intellectual property, licensing the rights to publish the 6th edition back to the former owner Hero Games. The 6th edition books synergistically allowed players to adapt their Champions Online characters to the pen-and-paper roleplaying game...." - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Champions_Online

[Scarlet Shocker]

Many of the signature characters are very wishy-washy by design. It's OUR story that is the interesting thing, not them so they shouldn't ever be front and centre in our adventure. Except... (more in this later)

 

Statesman; Statesman is the generic impervious do-gooder, seemingly indestructible, while being a preacher. Unimaginative, perhaps even a remixed clone of other better known comicbook heroes. But that's kind of what you want as your apex signature. That said Jack made some huge blunders in his time as lead dev, not just in his application but arguably more about his handling of various situations and that changed his character's perceived persona negatively I think.

 

Positron; As Matt Miller rose in the ranks of the dev team, Positron become ever more prominent. From being his rehabilitated "Oh look I can get out of my suit now!" to Daedalus in the ITF (why is he even there?) and the Flames of Prometheus. He kind of breaks the fundamental DM rule above - he overshadows our characters in the actual game Lore and that makes his place ultimately untenable. This I strongly believe was made much worse by Mr Miller's continual chasing of the new shiny. He got bored with some plot lines and so moved the story sideways before previous arcs were complete. Hence we have the whole Praetorian/Hamidon things hanging over our heads like a great amorphous void of unfinished storyness.

 

War Witch; One of our most mysterious Sig characters given she's in two places at once and her story is probably very exciting and interesting but it allows us as players to ruminate about what's behind the curtain without ever actually knowing. It helps that Melissa Bianco was very accessible as a dev and had a genuine love for the fans.

 

Back Alley Brawler is great as a character and it's sad that he's been relegated to the sidelines. Again, Chris Bruce is a fan favourite and I believe he actually plays on here - which shows the love he has for the game and community and that's always seemed to reflect in his interactions with the players.

 

Manticore is a poorly disguised Iron Bat clone. Some of the other sigs are even less well described and one is a robot and another a ghost so less relatable. and Ms Liberty - who should be front and centre of the sig chars having taken over from her grandpappy is left languishing.

 

It's mostly my opinion - but I firmly believe that how the signature character's named dev dealt with the fan base counts for 90%  of their rep and their character's writing is the other 15%

[Scarlet Shocker]

16 hours ago, JasperStone said:

I thought it was  Enhancement Demands ... just pop a blue.

 

 

...

oops wrong blue

 

 

Come and 'av a go if you think you're 'ard enough!