You know how some IO sets only have one unique enhancement?

[kelika2]

Can we get the opposite of that with Overwhelming Force's KB2KD and remove the uniqueness from that particular enhancement?

 

the KB tax is getting taxing mentally and some builds would love multiple OF KB2KDs

[mistagoat]

There is also the Sudden Acceleration kb2kd proc, that one is not unique so you can use as many as you'd like. The only downside is that is doesn't also enhance damage like the the Overwhelming Force does.

I'm guessing the reason the OF proc is unique is because it goes in anything that does damage and and can turn any damaging power into a damaging power that also does knockdown. That could potentially make the OF proc OP if you could put one in every attack. It's probably why the Avalanche KD proc is unique as well.

[MTeague]

people survived for years and years before KB2KD options even existed.

The idea of "KB tax" is 100% entirely self-inflicted.

[Uun]

1 hour ago, mistagoat said:

I'm guessing the reason the OF proc is unique is because it goes in anything that does damage and and can turn any damaging power into a damaging power that also does knockdown. That could potentially make the OF proc OP if you could put one in every attack. It's probably why the Avalanche KD proc is unique as well.

The entire Overwhelming Force set is unique, as is the entire Avalanche set and all other Universal Damage, Winter, ATO and Purple sets.

[Psi-bolt]

4 hours ago, MTeague said:

people survived for years and years before KB2KD options even existed.

The idea of "KB tax" is 100% entirely self-inflicted.

 

Didn't most people survive by not playing sets and/or powers with KB?

 

Personally, I tend to think that the KB to KD should just be a free power that you can buy at SMART that suppresses all your KB powers.

[srmalloy]

6 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Didn't most people survive by not playing sets and/or powers with KB?

Or, as with the Energy Blast set, learning how to use the knockback to assist with clustering up spawns for more efficient AoE use. Although there were people who just wanted to watch mobs go flying and didn't care that they were spreading out the spawns. 

[kelika2]

15 hours ago, MTeague said:

people survived for years and years before KB2KD options even existed.

The idea of "KB tax" is 100% entirely self-inflicted.

KB2KD was invented for a reason back on live

sc0re team slapped in the sudden accel set

every other cox project flat out removes knockback in some form or another

folks suffering for a long time and surviving it is not an excuse to continue doing nothing

im tired of being the bad guy for kicking people with unslotted meteor

im tired of getting heckled for having a group forming message saying no knockback/repel

 

please stop, mtleague

[Snarky]

I have this idea about KB—->KD.  See, we could have….

 

uh, nvm…

[Troo]

Reasonable suggestion.

@mistagoat makes a good point.

I agree with @MTeague.

 

Knockback is great. It is also fun. That said, I can understand the usefulness for someone that doesn't like it to be able to turn it off.

[UltraAlt]

12 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Didn't most people survive by not playing sets and/or powers with KB?

 

This is speculative.

It is more likely that there are plenty of players that played with KB powers that put melee players on /ignore if they complained about KB powers being used or just generally avoided teaming with them.

 

I found relatively few players that complained about KB use before the Sunset and since playing on Homecoming.

At times, I do a lot of PuG'ing. I haven't heard more than a handful of complaints about players using knockback. I certainly haven't complained about other players using knockback. But whenever I have heard a complaint about knockback it has been from mainly tanks ... and mainly tanks that didn't have taunt in their build.

 

KB is a soft hold that last longer than KD. Not only can't they attack while they are laying on the ground ... they can't attack while they are flying through the air either.

And there is no doubt that control of knockback goes a long way of making it more useful for a team or useful in general for that matter. For example, knocking enemie back to where the melee characters versus knocking enemies away form melee characters.

Edited Tuesday at 06:16 AM by UltraAlt

[Psi-bolt]

6 hours ago, UltraAlt said:

 

This is speculative.

It is more likely that there are plenty of players that played with KB powers that put melee players on /ignore if they complained about KB powers being used or just generally avoided teaming with them.

 

 

Perhaps, but I don't think any honest broker would argue that Energy Blast, for example, is a popular set.  That could be for other reasons, but I would suggest that its KB is a core reason that people don't want to use the set.

 

Quote

I found relatively few players that complained about KB use before the Sunset and since playing on Homecoming.

At times, I do a lot of PuG'ing. I haven't heard more than a handful of complaints about players using knockback. I certainly haven't complained about other players using knockback. But whenever I have heard a complaint about knockback it has been from mainly tanks ... and mainly tanks that didn't have taunt in their build.

 

I don't complain about KB either nor do I see many people complain about KB.  I think in the current state of the game on Homecoming that's primarily because things are streamlined to the extent that the clear efficiency lost from KB powers is mitigated by the game being easy enough that it really doesn't matter.   Basically, I think I am like most players in that while KB can be annoying at times, it's not worth getting upset about.  

 

Quote

KB is a soft hold that last longer than KD. Not only can't they attack while they are laying on the ground ... they can't attack while they are flying through the air either.

And there is no doubt that control of knockback goes a long way of making it more useful for a team or useful in general for that matter. For example, knocking enemie back to where the melee characters versus knocking enemies away form melee characters.

 

Honestly, the biggest argument in favor of KB is that it's fun and thematic.   From a gameplay standpoint, its benefits are far outweighed by the lost of efficiency.   It's not just melees either.   I was playing my Ice Blaster recently and a SS character used Hand Clap on a spawn.   Well with the enemies spread out like that, using either of my location AoEs would have been a waste.    I didn't sweat it, like I said, I don't care that much.   I just moved on to the next spawn and let the melee clean up his own mess.  

 

There are a LARGE number of powers that benefit from having enemies tightly clumped up.   Many AOE powers, many buff powers, debuffs, etc.   That's just a fact.   KB, whatever its benefit, interferes with maximizing the use of those powers.    That it does so has caused many players to avoid KB powers in my observation.  I PUG almost every session I play and I rarely see sets with substantial KB or even individual powers with AOE KB.   This makes sets like Energy Blast very uncommon even though it's a cool looking set.   

 

I think the various developer teams from live and Homecoming don't want to change this because of players like you who really enjoy using KB.  The undeniable feeling of power that comes from tossing enemies all around is fun.   That's cool, I can understand that perspective.     

[tidge]

I kinda love Energy Blast.... and much of the appeal for me is the knockback. I will slot a KB->KD in Nova, because as much as I like seeing enemies go flying into walls, I'm not a fan of tracking down enemies scattered in every cardinal direction. There is nothing else quite like Ki Push followed up with something like Power Burst on the same target.

 

I don't intend to write any more in this thread, as this topic is an old one that I've participated in.. but I agree with @srmalloy comment about learning how to use KB to avoid chaotic scatter is a valuable skill, and with the other comments that KB/KD are pretty good 'soft' controls.

[UltraAlt]

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Perhaps, but I don't think any honest broker would argue that Energy Blast, for example, is a popular set.  That could be for other reasons, but I would suggest that its KB is a core reason that people don't want to use the set.

 

Myself. I like energy blast for the characters with a character conception fit it, and I don't slot any of the powers with KB to KD.

I don't avoid using energy blast.

 

I don't see any evidence that players are avoiding energy blast due to the knockback other than those that have been brow-beaten into not using powers that have KB.

 

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

Basically, I think I am like most players in that while KB can be annoying at times, it's not worth getting upset about.  

 

Pretty much anything can be annoying at times.

 

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

There are a LARGE number of powers that benefit from having enemies tightly clumped up. 

 

And not all KB powers are multi target.

A good number of KB powers allow you to KB multiple targets into a corner or wall what will tend to keep them grouped up.

 

No denying that KB can be used to scatter enemies. 

 

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

That it does so has caused many players to avoid KB powers in my observation.

 

Do you only play level 50 characters?

I'm just wondering for perspective sake.

 

3 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

I think the various developer teams from live and Homecoming don't want to change this because of players like you who really enjoy using KB.  The undeniable feeling of power that comes from tossing enemies all around is fun.   That's cool, I can understand that perspective.     

 

I have been on some very fun all-KB teams.

 

[macskull]

On 7/21/2025 at 6:39 AM, MTeague said:

The idea of "KB tax" is 100% entirely self-inflicted.

If this were true, the lead powers dev wouldn't have pushed back so hard on letting Sudden Acceleration be non-unique, or we'd have an option at Null the Gull to convert all KB into KD. If you dig around and find Galaxy Brain's old Blast set comparison charts, you'll find that Energy Blast goes from almost dead last to solidly middle-of-the-pack when you add KB/KD enhancements.

 

1 hour ago, UltraAlt said:

A good number of KB powers allow you to KB multiple targets into a corner or wall what will tend to keep them grouped up.

AoEs with guaranteed KB are the exception, not the norm. No matter how good your intentions, if the AoE you're using doesn't have guaranteed KB you're almost certainly going to cause scatter unless you slot KB/KD.

[Excraft]

18 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Or, as with the Energy Blast set, learning how to use the knockback to assist with clustering up spawns for more efficient AoE use.

 

Which in of itself is a pain, especially in cave maps and narrow hallways, and that isn't including KB knocking stuff into the map geometry where it gets stuck.  Hence, the reason people avoided playing sets with heavy KB.

 

18 hours ago, srmalloy said:

Although there were people who just wanted to watch mobs go flying and didn't care that they were spreading out the spawns. 

 

There still are those people.

[macskull]

If people enjoy using knockback because it lets them fulfill some sort of power fantasy by watching things go flying, I'm totally fine with that, but they can do it on their own time. On the rare case I'm running a team and run into someone using indiscriminate knockback I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and ask nicely for them to stop doing it. If they choose not to, my second ask is just me kicking them from the team.

[FupDup]

Someone on the Discord once suggested that most currently KB-enabled powers should be KD by default instead, with the onus being on the player to slot for KB enhancement if they really want to fling targets around (as opposed to the current situation where players who don't want to annoy others will need to slot for KB->KD). ST attacks can get away with it a bit easier but AOEs really can't in most cases. 

Flipping the onus around like that would prevent accidents and remove the slot tax aspect, plus it would be way easier to identify people who are doing it on purpose because they'd have to slot for it specifically as opposed to it being the default state. 

[Riverdusk]

Staying away from the 1,000th kb pro/con argument.

 

As another possibility, maybe the sudden acceleration kb to kd IO could also have some damage added to it as well?  Or the set could be tweaked overall?

 

Quick check of mids and a full 6 slotted sudden acceleration set at level 50 gives about 48% acc, 64% damage, 21% endurance, 48% recharge, 112% knockback.  The set bonuses are actually pretty good, but the enhancement values could certainly use a tweak upwards (except for knockback).   

 

So much wasted enhancement boost on knockback that is then just nullified if you six slot it anyway.  Never really made sense.

Edited Wednesday at 03:48 AM by Riverdusk

[Psyonico]

3 hours ago, FupDup said:

Someone on the Discord once suggested that most currently KB-enabled powers should be KD by default instead, with the onus being on the player to slot for KB enhancement if they really want to fling targets around (as opposed to the current situation where players who don't want to annoy others will need to slot for KB->KD). ST attacks can get away with it a bit easier but AOEs really can't in most cases. 

Flipping the onus around like that would prevent accidents and remove the slot tax aspect, plus it would be way easier to identify people who are doing it on purpose because they'd have to slot for it specifically as opposed to it being the default state. 

The problem with this idea is that since KD is just KB with mag < .75, unless they were to create a new schedule for knockback enhancements even at ED capped KB enhancement you'd have significantly weaker knockback than the powers provide now.  For example, Energy Torrent does mag 4.985 knockback currently.  Assuming the devs set knockback to the standard .67 mag that knockdown powers get, ED softcapped Knockback (schedule D) would be ~1.2

[Shin Magmus]

On 7/21/2025 at 3:39 PM, MTeague said:

people survived for years and years before KB2KD options even existed.

The idea of "KB tax" is 100% entirely self-inflicted.

   For reference, after playing Live for a few years (I started right as Issue 5 dropped) I just stopped tolerating Troll Blast A.K.A. Energy Blast.  It was kick-on-sight, but more usually me just deliberately not inviting them to whatever I was forming in the first place.  Troll Blast was on my banlist and I was a much happier person because of it.  Random chances (40%, 60%) of AoE Knockback are genuinely the worst effects a power can have.  It ruins everyone else's fun when the enemies are scattered randomly and half are out of the Tar Patch, out of the Caltrops, out of range of Radiation Infection or Disruption Field, etc. etc.

 

   The "KB tax" is real, and it is paid voluntarily by players who are considerate of others.  1 person's fun isn't more important than denying that same fun to 7 others.  OwF and Sudden Acceleration IOs enable the average player to be able to tolerate the Blenergy Gablooster on their team.  I'm against making OwF become slottable multiple times though, and for an alternative solution: such as mutually exclusive power picks where you can take an alternate version of Explosive Blast that ONLY knocks down, or has a 100% chance of KB.

[Psi-bolt]

On 7/22/2025 at 12:27 PM, UltraAlt said:

Pretty much anything can be annoying at times.

 

Do you only play level 50 characters?

I'm just wondering for perspective sake.

 

I have been on some very fun all-KB teams.

 

I don’t think anyone finds auto powers annoying.

 

As for playing level 50s, I wish I could manage my severe altoholism, but no I play lowbies quite regularly.

 

Finally, I don’t doubt that you’ve had some fun all-KB teams.  I just want a choice.  I like the look of Energy Blast and if I could just suppress its KB I would play the set.  I’m not going to buy an expensive enhancement for all my powers because other sets have secondary effects that don’t have the same interactions with other powers and don’t require such an enhancement.

[Starhammer]

This game was originally inspired heavily by Champions (offline). I wish we had it's mechanism for knockback, in that it more or less caused falling damage (halved if you didn't hit a wall or whatever). Now obviously falling damage has been nerfed to the point of being generally irrelevant for all but the lowest lowbies, but it'd be less of a kick in the teeth if instead of just making the tank play fetch, KB caused some supplemental damage on secondary impact. I don't think it's ever happen, and I can live with KB/D/U just being a soft hold... but it'd be neat.

[UltraAlt]

7 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

I don’t think anyone finds auto powers annoying.

 

I find some powers on auto-fire annoying.

(but, yeah, I get your point)

 

7 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

As for playing level 50s, I wish I could manage my severe altoholism, but no I play lowbies quite regularly.

 

Thanks for letting me know.

I find that those that play melee characters - especially level 50's - to be the one complaining about knockback.

I don't think I have ever had a player on Homecoming complain on a team about knockback that weren't playing a level 50 of the time.

 

7 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

I just want a choice.  I like the look of Energy Blast and if I could just suppress its KB I would play the set.

 

And you have a two IO set enhancement choices that you can slot in the powers to turn KB to KD to change that if you want. One of them can be slotted in multiple powers.

 

7 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

I’m not going to buy an expensive enhancement for all my powers because other sets have secondary effects that don’t have the same interactions with other powers and don’t require such an enhancement.

 

That is your choice as well.

 

The options there there.

If you don't want to use the enhancements to turn KB to KD or sets with knockback at all, that is your choice.

 

The IO set enhancement that can be slotted in multiple powers isn't all that expensive comparatively, even lower if you are willing to have patience until they drop, and even lower if you are willing to take the time to create one, sell it, and buy a new Attuned one at a lower price than you sell the one that you crafted (and may very well make a profit doing so). Time consuming, yes, but you can set that up on character that you have now and then when you have enough of them, then you can create your energy blaster ... if you really want to play one (but they are way more fun and have increased survivability with the knockback).

[Starhammer]

8 hours ago, Psi-bolt said:

I just want a choice.  I like the look of Energy Blast and if I could just suppress its KB I would play the set.

FWIW, I play a few characters with Energy Blast (including my main, a FF/EB Defender). I only have to clip the KB on a couple powers to make it basically a non-issue. Most of those have a % chance of KB, and if the chance isn't real high, I just leave it be. If anyone's gonna complain about my KB it'll be on Nova, which I intentionally leave it there for. Otherwise it's just about careful positioning to make sure if there is KB, you're playing handball against a wall with the target anyway.

[Psi-bolt]

1 hour ago, Starhammer said:

FWIW, I play a few characters with Energy Blast (including my main, a FF/EB Defender). I only have to clip the KB on a couple powers to make it basically a non-issue. Most of those have a % chance of KB, and if the chance isn't real high, I just leave it be. If anyone's gonna complain about my KB it'll be on Nova, which I intentionally leave it there for. Otherwise it's just about careful positioning to make sure if there is KB, you're playing handball against a wall with the target anyway.

 

As I just finished another Blaster, I have  been thinking of doing just this, slotting the two AoEs with KB-KD and ignoring the others.  But I know I'll just find myself at the character create screen and wind up with a psychic blaster or something! 😆