Knockback, Stil a Dirty Word?

[Clave Dark 5]

It's funny to me that people on these boards dislike that knockback forces them to go chasing the scattered, or at least to ungroup things, and many also stridently defend Fold Spacers who don't bother to tell people they're going to use it or how ("I'll be Fold Spacing onto the tank"), making others often waste their AoEs...

 

Thinking about these two things, I'd put money on the HC team finding some easy/quick work-around to allow us to ignore KB, as they seem to do everything they can to support grouping foes for quick steamrolling/farming benefits.

[Erratic1]

4 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

It's funny to me that people on these boards dislike that knockback forces them to go chasing the scattered, or at least to ungroup things, and many also stridently defend Fold Spacers who don't bother to tell people they're going to use it or how ("I'll be Fold Spacing onto the tank"), making others often waste their AoEs...

 

Fold Space is far less common than Knockback. The consequences are also less problematic as grouped things still get steamrolled whereas scattered things, particularly things I've hit already, may live long enough to decide they still hate me more for control or healing, particularly when the damage dealers move on without now killing every single, last scattered target.

 

This came up last week on an ITF where someone kept running into groups and using Hand Clap. After two deaths on my part, I simply scaled back on my area controls and heals, as I've learned it really isn't worth complaining about since most dont care until it impacts them.

[bAss_ackwards]

11 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

On my Mind Control/Energy Assault Dominator I simply avoid targeting things melee characters are fighting and apologize when I mess up. But not really any AoE KB is on the table there.

 

My EB/Martial Blaster I mostly solo with, though on a team I would refrain from AoE unless sure it weild kill the targets or prevent another player from going down.

 

I decided to give it another go - and this time I would put in KB to KD IOs in.

 

Got a theme, got a build, then gave it a spin. For me the it went from meh to this is fun! Looking forward to fully kitting it out in the future. 🥳

[Ghost]

8 hours ago, Solarverse said:

 

You are 100% correct. There's only one problem with this; this has been a complaint and issue with the game since day one. There have been many solutions that have been presented, all shot down for one reason or another...and sometimes no reason given at all. Some solutions have even been great compromises or even the ability to turn KB on or off, depending on the type of team you are playing on...again, shot down. Worse, is that there is no reason why KB players and non-KB players can't play together with many of the solutions presented over the eons of time. This has been a problem for so long, the real question is; Why does this problem still exist when there have been so many solutions to fix the conflicting issue? KB does not have to be conflicting on a nonKB team when it can be made to be a beneficial asset?  

Complaining since day one?

Thats a long time.  Seems to me like it’s time for the complainers to realize it’s not going to change and learn to adapt.

 

I mean even a crying baby will eventually stop crying.

[Skyhawke]

2 hours ago, Erratic1 said:

 

1. Fold Space is far less common than Knockback.

 

2.The consequences are also less problematic as grouped things still get steamrolled whereas scattered things, particularly things I've hit already, may live long enough to decide they still hate me more for control or healing, particularly when the damage dealers move on without now killing every single, last scattered target.

 

1. Yet no less annoying. I $##%ing hate Fold Space because it's never (to my observation) announced. It just happens and I'm left standing there, aoe wasted and now trying to find wherethe enemies went.

 

2. I don't care about steamrolling (as too many seem to, in my opinion) so this takes away my fun. Fun: "What provides amusement or enjoyment."  I am neither amused nor do I enjoy myself when people use Fold Space.

 

Knockback can be annoying, yes, but Fold Space isn't exactly a winner in my book either.

[Ghost]

27 minutes ago, Skyhawke said:

 

1. Yet no less annoying. I $##%ing hate Fold Space because it's never (to my observation) announced. It just happens and I'm left standing there, aoe wasted and now trying to find wherethe enemies went.

 

2. I don't care about steamrolling (as too many seem to, in my opinion) so this takes away my fun. Fun: "What provides amusement or enjoyment."  I am neither amused nor do I enjoy myself when people use Fold Space.

 

Knockback can be annoying, yes, but Fold Space isn't exactly a winner in my book either.

Honest question - what would be proper etiquette for someone using Fold Space on a PUG?

 

Ive never used it, but am thinking of building a scrapper that utilizes it.

 

[Skyhawke]

48 minutes ago, Ghost said:

Honest question - what would be proper etiquette for someone using Fold Space on a PUG?

 

Ive never used it, but am thinking of building a scrapper that utilizes it.

 

 

Being up front from the start that you have it and will call out before using it. Not a lot is more frustrating than being a melee person, jumping into a group, getting ready to fire an attack (bonus points if it's your aoe) and everything vanishes.  Now you've wasted time, efort, a cooldown AND you have to stop and find where everything went. Very annoying.

[Tankshock]

Yeah, KB is annoying.  And yeah, everyone has a right to play and have fun how they want.  I've bought new players KB>KD procs on many occasions.  And I've left many teams because someone who didn't know how to use KB was messing me up big time.  It's one of the few toon types where someone being low skill actively gets in the way.

It just is what it is.  Kicking people with KB is a dick move, but asking them to stop scattering is perfectly fair.  IMNSHO

[Solarverse]

4 hours ago, Ghost said:

Complaining since day one?

Thats a long time.  Seems to me like it’s time for the complainers to realize it’s not going to change and learn to adapt.

 

I mean even a crying baby will eventually stop crying.

 

Lol, funny guy. I remember when people said the same thing about Power Color Customization...

[Solarverse]

1 hour ago, Skyhawke said:

 

1. Yet no less annoying. I $##%ing hate Fold Space because it's never (to my observation) announced. It just happens and I'm left standing there, aoe wasted and now trying to find wherethe enemies went.

 

2. I don't care about steamrolling (as too many seem to, in my opinion) so this takes away my fun. Fun: "What provides amusement or enjoyment."  I am neither amused nor do I enjoy myself when people use Fold Space.

 

Knockback can be annoying, yes, but Fold Space isn't exactly a winner in my book either.

 

I agree with this as well. When Fold Space was created, my first thought was, "I know where this is leading...just more irritation." It was supposed to be the answer to the Knock Back. Instead it became an equal irritation.

[Ghost]

35 minutes ago, Solarverse said:

 

Lol, funny guy. I remember when people said the same thing about Power Color Customization...

Power Color Customization, which affects exactly no one vs doing something about KB that affects the play style of everyone with a KB power

🤔

 

Doesn’t seem like a like for like comparison to me.

 

 

 

[Jacke]

On 8/13/2025 at 8:22 AM, bAss_ackwards said:

KB is the reason I can't bring myself to play Energy Blast. 😔

 

I've decided to limit my use of Energy Blast to a Blaster, Energy Blast/Atomic Manipulation.  The Secondary T1 is an Immobilize that gives the mob Knockback Resistance (only some of the Blaster Secondary T1's have KB Resistance, with some having a way long Cast Time).  So, for ST fire, drop and maintain the Secondary T1 on a target means it gets knocked down, not knocked back.  Will only worry about using KB>KD IOs on the AoEs.

 

 

[Plutonix]

All I know is ki push and energy blast are like cookies and cream

[Bionic_Flea]

I don't care how anti-Knockback you are, you can't negate the pure joy I get from playing Hellion Skeet Shooting.

 

PULL!  [Repulsion Bolt] (formerly [Force Bolt], with full set of Force Feedback) followed by [Moonbeam].  That never get old.

Edited 8 hours ago by Bionic_Flea

[catsi563]

i still remember power thrusting a clockwork over the atlas war wall on live pretty sure the little guys still in orbit somewhere

[battlewraith]

It seems to me that anti-knockback bias goes back to the days when teams would be relying on toggle powers with anchors, like radiation infection. 

You'd be fighting a tough group and then someone would knock your anchor away from it--sometimes sending it into another group. 

Maybe it's not as big a deal anymore since those anchor powers aren't as popular?

[Yomo Kimyata]

4 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

 

Being up front from the start that you have it and will call out before using it. Not a lot is more frustrating than being a melee person, jumping into a group, getting ready to fire an attack (bonus points if it's your aoe) and everything vanishes.  Now you've wasted time, efort, a cooldown AND you have to stop and find where everything went. Very annoying.

 

I've got only one character out of hundreds with this power (and I respecced out of it recently), but this seems like an etiquette being enforced from someone who doesn't have it and wants this behavior from someone who does.

 

It takes me no more than twice to figure out that someone has fold space, and it doesn't take me much longer to figure out who it is.  Generally, at that point I just start following that person around because: 1. I know there is very close to a zero percent chance if I ask them to NOT use it or to announce it every minute or two before using it that there will be compliance; and 2. How much longer am I really going to be on a team with this person?  It's not like we're married and have to communicate about things that annoy us about the other.  That's just my approach, partly because I don't love needless conflict, and mainly because I'm probably not going to be able to influence a complete stranger's gameplay because it's something I personally find annoying.  It's not much of a problem, and it's one of short duration.

[catsi563]

5 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

 

1. Yet no less annoying. I $##%ing hate Fold Space because it's never (to my observation) announced. It just happens and I'm left standing there, aoe wasted and now trying to find wherethe enemies went.

 

2. I don't care about steamrolling (as too many seem to, in my opinion) so this takes away my fun. Fun: "What provides amusement or enjoyment."  I am neither amused nor do I enjoy myself when people use Fold Space.

 

Knockback can be annoying, yes, but Fold Space isn't exactly a winner in my book either.

 

See thats not the issue with fold space though I grant you  understand the frustration because the same frustration could be said for things like the various mass Immobs I as a tank rush in try to gather the mob into a tight group so the others can go to town only to find the group controller or dom jhas let loose with a mass immob leaving me scrambling to taunt and cover all the mobs

 

its the PCs and a lack of communication combined with this seeming need to rush through content at mach 5 that leads to the lack of communication youre getting with Fold space and other such disruptive powers

[dukedukes]

5 hours ago, Skyhawke said:

Being up front from the start that you have it and will call out before using it. Not a lot is more frustrating than being a melee person, jumping into a group, getting ready to fire an attack (bonus points if it's your aoe) and everything vanishes.  Now you've wasted time, efort, a cooldown AND you have to stop and find where everything went. Very annoying.

 

1 hour ago, catsi563 said:

its the PCs and a lack of communication combined with this seeming need to rush through content at mach 5 that leads to the lack of communication youre getting with Fold space and other such disruptive powers

I don't agree with the communication requirement, it's typically obvious when fold space would be used. Mobs are spread a decent distance? It's getting used. Granted sometimes it can happen late and be more surprising.  Certain people may overuse the power but you should be able to pick up on their habit. Being able to adapt to teammates is a good skill to have, it's part of the fun of teaming, adapting makes gameplay more dynamic. What makes the best COH players I've personally seen is this ability to adapt, but that goes well beyond predicting fold space.

 

The other side of the problem is melee who always try to kill stragglers. It could be a minion or LT and not a boss, melee don't care. When I play melee I either kill bosses or aoe, so I don't get this at all. Melee even get a power to pull in distant enemies but knowing what taunt does seems to be rare knowledge 20 years later.  If the team has a fold space user and mobs are spread your best bet is to try to position in the middle of them all. Ideally fold space is the first thing that happens so nothing gets pulled from people.

 

Fold space is problematic for many reasons, it is disruptive, part of that is the sudden TP with no FX. With Wormhole the mobs at least glow for 3 seconds, so it's in a better spot. Every person potentially having fold space is odd too, it's stronger than wormhole in many scenarios which is weird for a pool power. For something that changes combat so dramatically (at times) it really should belong to a power set instead of a pool, but I think we've crossed that bridge already.

 

The speedrun thing I can understand, but if people have the means to speed up a fight they likely feel they hold the role or responsibility to perform that task. It's less about zoom zoom and more about helping the team from their view, that's how I feel at times anyway. Many people do enjoy being efficient as well, it's part of the game.

Edited 5 hours ago by dukedukes

[BlackSpectre]

Honestly guys, I like both Knockback and Fold Space. We're no longer herding as the main tactic, so it doesn't have that much effect anymore. I just keep my eyes open when playing on a team. I read the chat from the leader and other teammates, and I WATCH the battlefield and ADJUST to what I see happening. I haven't died from other players using knock back or Fold Space (or Black Hole for that matter, another somewhat annoying power) because I change my tactics to match what my fellow players are actually doing.  It mixes things up a bit, and for me that's a good thing.

 

I should mention that I have no qualms about running away and leaving teammates who are willfully acting stupidly to their fate. I usually let them take the lead because they're taking the lead anyway... or to put it another way, they act without the slightest awareness of the battlefield, the situation, or fellow teammates. In some situations those players eventually notice that they are dying an awful lot or the rest of the team isn't backing them up, and then quit the team... or blissfully continue without ever noticing. These, of course, are PUGs I'm speaking of, not players that I know well.

 

With SG mates who are all used to playing together, there's no issue. Knockback, fold space, whatever... we just talk to each other and things always go smoothly. For example, if one player is using knock back I already know and am ready to kill those targets wherever they land. In the past, knock back has saved my ass a several times by scattering the foes. It take time for them to run back to us, which give us a chance to regroup or run... it all depends. 

Edited 5 hours ago by BlackSpectre

[Luminara]

Kudos to all of the 0 people who've provided screenshots and combat logs showing the near universal hatred for KB.  Seeing the hard evidence of 0 instances of people being kicked from teams, ostracized for using specific power sets, and disparaged in chat channels has really driven home the attitudes formed by the majority of players over the 14 years the game's been active and the hundreds of millions of teams formed.

[PeregrineFalcon]

19 hours ago, Solarverse said:

You are 100% correct. There's only one problem with this; this has been a complaint and issue with the game since day one.

Thank you.

 

And I think that knocking people back is part of the super hero genre and that some people need to realize that knock back always has been and always will be a part of City of Heroes. The retail devs refused to take it away and the Homecoming devs have already said that they're not going to take it away, and why.

 

So, 21 years later knock back is still here. How many more decades until people realize that that isn't going to change? How many more decades until people realize that they are going to just have to deal with it?

[Solarverse]

7 hours ago, Ghost said:

Power Color Customization, which affects exactly no one vs doing something about KB that affects the play style of everyone with a KB power

🤔

 

Doesn’t seem like a like for like comparison to me.

 

 

 

 

I'm not even sure how to respond to this. Exactly which KB proposition has been made that would affect the play style of everyone with a KB power? The one where changing it would be a choice? The one where Knock Back causes extra damage based on distance knocked? You lost me there, Ghost. Either we are talking about two different things or I am severely failing to see your point of view here. Help me out here and explain it to me, please.

[Solarverse]

23 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

Thank you.

 

And I think that knocking people back is part of the super hero genre and that some people need to realize that knock back always has been and always will be a part of City of Heroes. The retail devs refused to take it away and the Homecoming devs have already said that they're not going to take it away, and why.

 

So, 21 years later knock back is still here. How many more decades until people realize that that isn't going to change? How many more decades until people realize that they are going to just have to deal with it?

 

I see where you are seeing this. However, I don't recall anyone trying to take away knock back. I have seen requests to make it a choice, and I have seen requests made to make it synergize well with teams by giving knock back some type of buff or damage scale that makes it sting a lot less on teams that don't like knock back. But taking it away? I don't recall anyone requesting that, and if anyone did request it, I most likely avoided that thread due to the ridiculousness of the suggestion. I mean, I can't speak for everyone else, but what I can say, is rest assure, I am in no way trying to take knock back away from anyone. I just wouldn't stoop that low.  😎

[tidge]

9 hours ago, Ghost said:

Honest question - what would be proper etiquette for someone using Fold Space on a PUG?

 

Ive never used it, but am thinking of building a scrapper that utilizes it.

 

 

I'd craft a bind that on button press Locals that I'm using Fold Space (at my $loc) and on release triggers it. Temmates can target the [loc] (or me) with a single click.

 

Of course, I know how to bind, so I'd just use Combat Teleport and never bother with Fold Space.