What's wrong with Warshades?

[Jaguaratron]

In many high level groups, your Brute or Tanker can just as easily solo the content you're doing. Now, if your contribution helps them solo faster, that's one thing. But when your contribution is to reduce their effectiveness, why would they want to bring you along?

 

How nice of the Tank to invite us lesser mortals along for the ride.

 

Honestly it's this kind of thinking that makes me dislike the tank 'n herd 'n AoE playstyle.  On live I spent most of my time on redside and since we had no dedicated tanks and no /Empathy this holy trinity stuff never came up... and the teams were better for it.  I did see it rear its ugly head from time to time on blueside, but we're not running dungeons in WoW here and there's very little content in this game that requires a tank.

 

The problem for tanks isn't uncontrolled knockback.  The problem with tanks is that they are not a must-have in 99% of the game.  Personally I'd rather run solo or on a less optimal team than run with a tank who expects my warshade (or blaster) to behave as nothing more than a mobile gun turret to augment his XP per second.

 

Its not necessarily a tank/herd/aoe situation, many defensive sets survivability rely on those mobs being in melee range to them and having them tossed across the map is a detriment, same with many buffs/debuffs, you may not like it but thats a real point, KB heavy classes can just slot a KB to KD IO now which is a much more valued and useful form. If you dont want to do KD instead of KB then people are just as entitled to not want you scattering the mobs.

 

Full disclosure, I dont care what people do, I only group for TFs and Trials I usually run off and do my own things in TFs to speed it along and test myself but I can still understand why some people dont like KB heavy classes.

[Lazarillo]

They have to shift into Dwarf for Mez Protection and PBs don't.  >:(

No, I'm not bitter, or anything.  >:(

[Hjarki]

Quite a few ATs can solo those groups fine too -- it's not a special trait held by the Brute or Tanker. There are situations in which contributions can slow everyone down, but it's not automatically dependent on the tank. The most important thing is that mobs are consistently controlled, and outside of an AV, multiple ATs can pull that off.

 

It's not just the Brute or Tanker - it's every melee AT.

 

Even for non-melee AT, your knockback will frequently transform a massive AE blast into a piddling single target blast because you just knocked the anchor point of their AE across the room. There are very few groups where your uncontrolled knockback won't result in the group performing less effectively.

[Legree]

Its not necessarily a tank/herd/aoe situation,

 

True, but in the comment I was responding to it absolutely was.

 

In other MMOs the group content often/usually revolves around the trinity, and the trinity revolves around the tank.  The tank leads the team, the healer heals the tank, and the DPS are interchangeable damage dealers because there's always plenty more where they came from.  It's strange to me that people are trying to import this heirarchy into a game that's basically, outside of a very few encounters, never needed it.

 

If you dont want to do KD instead of KB then people are just as entitled to not want you scattering the mobs.

 

Which is fine.  I wouldn't want to be on that team anyway.

[echosam]

 

True, but in the comment I was responding to it absolutely was.

 

In other MMOs the group content often/usually revolves around the trinity, and the trinity revolves around the tank.  The tank leads the team, the healer heals the tank, and the DPS are interchangeable damage dealers because there's always plenty more where they came from.  It's strange to me that people are trying to import this heirarchy into a game that's basically, outside of a very few encounters, never needed it.

 

 

Other games have tried to figure out how to weaken, if not remove, the Trinity model. Some add more categories. At least one I've seen tried to add "support" as a 4th member of the trinity (guess it wouldn't really be a trinity then, would it). Others have tried to figure out how to make a "bring the player not the class" thing, which is what this game already is.

 

The rest of the industry is trying to invent THIS game, where play what you want, because 5-8 characters of any type or class, played by competent players, can do 99% of the content. But, every time someone tries, the biggest complaint is 'This game isn't just like WoW and its clones, so therefore it sucks'. But then, those that have all the features are decried ans 'just another WoW clone'.

 

This game does not need to change to be more WoW-like, somebody needs to create a fantasy MMO version of this game. There are plenty of Trinity based, WoW clone games out there.

 

If you want a holy Trinity based game, they're out there... hell they dominate. It's harder to find one that isn't to some extent, a WoW clone (stylistically). The settings (Azeroth, Telara, Arborea, Haranya and Nuia, Calpheon and Valencia, The Galaxy far far away...), genre (fantasy, sci-fi, heroic) and situations may change, but they are all the same basic game.

[jubakumbi]

In other MMOs the group content often/usually revolves around the trinity, and the trinity revolves around the tank.  The tank leads the team, the healer heals the tank, and the DPS are interchangeable damage dealers because there's always plenty more where they came from.  It's strange to me that people are trying to import this heirarchy into a game that's basically, outside of a very few encounters, never needed it.

 

If you dont want to do KD instead of KB then people are just as entitled to not want you scattering the mobs.

 

Which is fine.  I wouldn't want to be on that team anyway.

 

IMO, the 'general community' has decided on the least fun, most boring way to play the game, given the diversity of powers and builds available, all in the name of rewards-per-second.

Playing the game_is_ the reward for me, personally.

Getting XP and stuff just happens, especially in this version.

 

Gaming the system I get is _very fun_ for a lot of people.

 

IMO, playing the game itself using this group-herd-tank-and-spank routine all the time is mind-numbingly boring, I simply cannot do it for more than a map, I only last a mission of it out of politeness.

Might as well play solitaire.

 

These things, just like the calling out of 'no Warshades', seep into the 'general population' as the 'right way to play' because humans are like lemmings...

[MunkiLord]

Quite a few ATs can solo those groups fine too -- it's not a special trait held by the Brute or Tanker. There are situations in which contributions can slow everyone down, but it's not automatically dependent on the tank. The most important thing is that mobs are consistently controlled, and outside of an AV, multiple ATs can pull that off.

 

It's not just the Brute or Tanker - it's every melee AT.

 

Even for non-melee AT, your knockback will frequently transform a massive AE blast into a piddling single target blast because you just knocked the anchor point of their AE across the room. There are very few groups where your uncontrolled knockback won't result in the group performing less effectively.

 

If characters with KB are expected to adjust, then melee ATs can meet half way and also adjust. The problem with anti KB people is they very often expect all the compromise to come from other people.

[MunkiLord]

IMO, laying the game itself using this group-herd-tank-and-spank routine all the time is mind-numbingly boring, I simply cannot do it for more than a map, I only last a mission of it out of politeness.

 

That's more polite than me. On general missions, I'll drop immediately. And in a TF if a team is going fast and there is whining when people don't wait for a tank to herd, I'll drop from that too the moment I get bored or annoyed with it.

[jubakumbi]

That's more polite than me. On general missions, I'll drop immediately. And in a TF if a team is going fast and there is whining when people don't wait for a tank to herd, I'll drop from that too the moment I get bored or annoyed with it.

 

As soon as I see 'wait for the tank to herd', I just start tanking - regardless of AT. :)

I totally get setting up specific teams or something to accomplish some type of goal, for goof, etc.

 

The game has enough repetition in it already, IMO, it does not need to me played the same way for each map.

I don't run farms for the same reason, it's just boring to me.

 

I am all about Funs Per Second, not Rewards Per Second.

Where is the sprogess on that meter I wonder?

 

I _love_ the WS/PB spawn mechanic because it bring in another flavor, for example, even though I don't play either.

KB is awesome fun.

So Kheldians are always fun to have on a team.

[justicebeliever]

That's more polite than me. On general missions, I'll drop immediately. And in a TF if a team is going fast and there is whining when people don't wait for a tank to herd, I'll drop from that too the moment I get bored or annoyed with it.

 

As soon as I see 'wait for the tank to herd', I just start tanking - regardless of AT. :)

I totally get setting up specific teams or something to accomplish some type of goal, for goof, etc.

 

The game has enough repetition in it already, IMO, it does not need to me played the same way for each map.

I don't run farms for the same reason, it's just boring to me.

 

I am all about Funs Per Second, not Rewards Per Second.

Where is the sprogess on that meter I wonder?

 

I _love_ the WS/PB spawn mechanic because it bring in another flavor, for example, even though I don't play either.

KB is awesome fun.

So Kheldians are always fun to have on a team.

 

Well said..twice in one day...be careful or it'll become a pattern.. +1 inf

[Dan Petro]

I'm just going to put this out there, but the "Warshades are Trash" SG on torchbearer hold numerous speed TF records, including the STF, LRSF, ITF and most importantly the AbSewTri.  So those guys might be on to something with their no warshade policy. (If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

[justicebeliever]

I'm just going to put this out there, but the "Warshades are Trash" SG on torchbearer hold numerous speed TF records, including the STF, LRSF, ITF and most importantly the AbSewTri.  So those guys might be on to something with their no warshade policy. (If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

 

Are you serious?  Wow, that's seriously wrong on many levels..

 

First the name - I realize that Warshades aren't people, but the players behind really don't deserve that label.  Because if you say my character is trash, (which is not objectively true), then you are really are making a judgment about those players.  It's insulting, but I could let that go...

 

But then to have your account scanned?  That's taking things way too far.  It's against the code of conduct, it's arrogant beyond belief.

 

I'd love to know who the leaders are so I can ignore them in-game, on discord and on the forums.

 

-100 inf for that supergroup...going to go take a shower now...

 

[Lazarillo]

If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps

Whooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaa no.

[MunkiLord]

I'm just going to put this out there, but the "Warshades are Trash" SG on torchbearer hold numerous speed TF records, including the STF, LRSF, ITF and most importantly the AbSewTri.  So those guys might be on to something with their no warshade policy. (If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

 

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read. Controlling people like that are best avoided.

[Papaschtroumpf]

My warshade kicked a whining brute out of a 50+4 mission run today. He kept whining we didn't let him herd. Then he whined that he needed the mobs surrounding him to help his survivability. We told him deal with it. Every AT has weaknesses and they learn to accommodate them depending on the team makeup and situation. The sentinel told him to keep up or leave. He said he felt useless. Then he said we wouldn't make it through the mission without him. That's when I told him I'd love to run that experiment and that he'd probably be happier with another team. I kicked him at the end off the mission. We picked an energy blaster of all things. We ran the next mission, agreed we kicked ass, and then starting having one of the controller tank/engage, then the sentinel on the next mission, then me (warshade). Worked every time. I had to step in and tank the AVs. The controller didn't have perma PA and the sentinel couldn't quite survive it. We did maybe 6 missions in that configuration (all AVs) without a brute or a tank (or an emp) on the team.

 

My WS has KB->KD IOs. I'm glad they exists now. I'd still play without thenlm.

[Black Zot]

I'm just going to put this out there, but the "Warshades are Trash" SG on torchbearer hold numerous speed TF records, including the STF, LRSF, ITF and most importantly the AbSewTri.  So those guys might be on to something with their no warshade policy. (If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

 

 

I think I'll echo justicebeliever on this one - I need account names to block so I don't have to put up with such control freakery.

[Sunsette]

This is entirely an aside, but at a game theory level, the trinity is 'sticky' because basically it's the smallest stable model of interdependence.

 

Unit A supports Unit B but needs help from Unit C.

Unit B supports Unit C, but needs help from Unit A.

Unit C supports Unit A, but needs help from Unit B.

 

Interdependence models support teaming while reducing prima donna behavior and keep balance easy to control. Fewer type pieces needed mean it's easier to put together a group. CoH gets around this by not caring a lot for balance, but you can still see all the 'parts' of the trinity, and the harder the content, the more likely you are to benefit from either a trinity or a group of hybrids that have all the pieces of the trinity. Content isn't its main draw, the characters are.

[Legree]

(If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

 

If this is a joke post it's the funniest thing I've read all day.  if it's not a joke post... it's still the funniest thing I've read all day.

 

I do wonder though... how do you know your members don't have secret second accounts which they use to get their squid on under an assumed name?  I suggest installing some kind of spyware to send out an alert if it registers excessive amounts of purple on their monitors.  You can't be too careful...

[justicebeliever]

(If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

 

If this is a joke post it's the funniest thing I've read all day.  if it's not a joke post... it's still the funniest thing I've read all day.

 

I do wonder though... how do you know your members don't have secret second accounts which they use to get their squid on under an assumed name?  I suggest installing some kind of spyware to send out an alert if it registers excessive amounts of purple on their monitors.  You can't be too careful...

 

I think members should also submit their browser history to ensure they aren't watching or reading any material that might come off as "Pro-Warshade".

 

I showered once, and this thread still makes feel icky...

[vinnie_]

The internet's been around for a long time but some of y'all still don't know when someone is trolling.

[GM Fiddleback]

Do NOT for ANY reason, go around providing your account credentials to ANYONE.

[Xaeon]

I'm just going to put this out there, but the "Warshades are Trash" SG on torchbearer hold numerous speed TF records, including the STF, LRSF, ITF and most importantly the AbSewTri.  So those guys might be on to something with their no warshade policy. (If you are looking for an invite you do need to provide your account info for regular sweeps to be sure you haven't rolled a warshade).

Bruh this meme is lower effort than my deep fried shitposts on homestuck discords.

[Myrmidon]

They smell funny.

[Sunrunner]

The internet's been around for a long time but some of y'all still don't know when someone is trolling.

 

Poe's Law would like to have a word with you.

[vinnie_]

The internet's been around for a long time but some of y'all still don't know when someone is trolling.

 

Poe's Law would like to have a word with you.

 

Poe's Law can get thrown in the dumpster right alongside every Warshade. If you think someone's really out here doing account sweeps for an AT, no amount of silly emojis is going to help you.