What's wrong with Warshades?

[Robotech_Master]

It seems to be a thing lately, at least on Torchbearer, that I see people advertising in the /LFG channel for Task Force formation, but adding, "...but no Warshades!"

 

Why is this?

 

I mean, I do remember back on live, teaming with Kheldians would bring you Quantums, Void Hunters, and Shadow Cysts behind every bush. But I've teamed with Peacebringers and Warshades in the new game, and not seen a single one of them to my recollection--kind of to my disappointment, actually, as I wanted the extra challenge on my Tanker and Brute characters.

 

But even if quantums and cysts are still around, why single out Warshades? Shouldn't teaming up with Peacebringers be just as bad?

[JusticeBowler]

I did see "no warshades" once or twice, but not in a while. I love my WS and he's useful in a lot of different contexts even though he's only in his late 30s. I can tank "good enough" for a balanced team that isn't running too hot and if there is someone better than me around, I can go self-buff-beast mode and throw down DPS better than a blaster, especially on big teams with big mob groups to grab all that buff from.

 

Now, doing all that form swapping might be a bit of an eyesore for some people (boom-boom-boom all the time as well). Maybe that's what's pissing people off, but no one has ever asked me not to. But this might explain why people like PBs better because everyone I've encountered spent 90% of their time in human/light form.

 

In tank form QUANTS etc are almost irrelevant now since they've been (sadly I should say) nerfed. I never even bother to look out for them.

[MunkiLord]

There is nothing wrong with Warshades. In fact people advertising they won't take them on their teams is helpful as I know that's a team to avoid regardless of the AT I'm playing.

[Legree]

I've seen the same messages.

 

Warshades do knockback.  That's why they're being singled out in LFG.  "Tank and herd and AoE" seems to have become a popular tactic since the game came back and its fans do not like anything that scatters mobs.  "No Warshades" is coming from a similar mindset as "Need Heals" or "Need Tank or Brute", when you don't 'need' any such thing for 99% of the content in the game.

 

There is nothing wrong with Warshades. In fact people advertising they won't take them on their teams is helpful as I know that's a team to avoid regardless of the AT I'm playing.

 

This.

[Vanden]

It’s a goof people are doing, that’s all.

[Auroxis]

Two things are wrong with Khelds, damage cap and KB.

 

You basically have a fury-like inherent in Cosmic Balance/Dark Sustenance, along with very strong damage buffs (especially for WS) but your damage cap is only +300% unlike Brute's +675%. Hitting the damage cap for WS is extremely easy, and for PB it doesn't take much either, so all those damage buffs in teams don't benefit you at all. Then you have all the KB effects which many people don't bother IO'ing out, and the lack of any meaningful buffs/debuffs.

 

For a class with a team-centric inherent, they sure don't synergize well with teams.

[jubakumbi]

Some people think the DPS Meter and the Inf-Loot/per second have to be 'perfect'.

Some people just cannot abide another player doing things a different way.

 

People are people, so I avoid them in-game like I do in RL.

 

There are plenty of players that have no idea how the game works and plenty that do, but, IMO, many forgot about having fun and turned Play into a Job.

 

It is totally fascinating to me how some people have to control everything around them, even in a video game.

[Papaschtroumpf]

There is nothing wrong with Warshades

They do less knockback that say, Storm, and because they can fly they can shoot from above and change that KB to KD.

The nuke (Quasar) does KB, so does Energy Blast's Nova and others. My warshade does have a couple KB->KD IOs in some powers for good measure.

 

Warshade can blast, Warshades can tank, Warshades can stealth and TP you to the end of the mission. Warshade can do crowd control pretty well.

 

The only reason you may not want a warshade on your team is because they make you feel inadequate. They don't need to wait for you to herd, they can outdamage you...

 

 

Yes Kheldians (PBs too) will cause Quantums to spawn. Most regular heroes should not care much about that. The Kheldian player just needs to learn with it. Don't run, go straight to them and smash them first.

 

Interestingly I recently saw a article in the press a out the return of CoH that refered to the Warshade as "the most hated AT".

[Trickshooter]

It’s a goof people are doing, that’s all.

 

A lot of people getting very deep in to the mechanics of why someone might say No Warshades and why they're wrong, but honestly I think Vanden is right. I think it's just becoming an in-game meme.

[jubakumbi]

It’s a goof people are doing, that’s all.

 

A lot of people getting very deep in to the mechanics of why someone might say No Warshades and why they're wrong, but honestly I think Vanden is right. I think it's just becoming an in-game meme.

 

Could be, but sadly, people still think The Onion is real news, so....

[Shinobu]

 

Ultimately the person forming the team can set whatever rules they want, and you don't have to join them if you don't want to.  I think it's someone just being silly for the sake of it, as Vanden said... but also with the knowledge that anyone else can form their own team.  There's no secret to forming a team, and you can run your team how you want.  Form a team where only Warshades are allowed, whatever.  ^_^

 

 

[Ironblade]

It seems to be a thing lately, at least on Torchbearer, that I see people advertising in the /LFG channel for Task Force formation, but adding, "...but no Warshades!"

 

Why is this?

Because they are losers.  Let me tell you a story.....

 

Back on the live servers, I ran task forces every Saturday afternoon with open sign-up on the forums.  One day, I had someone send me a tell if it was okay if they brought their main character, which was a kheld.  I said, "Everyone is welcome.  I arrange the teams to make sure they're all good and anyone can bring any AT as long as they're high enough level for that TF."

 

Long story, short: we started dating like 7 years ago and now we live together.

Imagine if I had replied, "No, I don't want no stinking kheldians on my teams!"

:)

[ranagrande]

I have seen this used as some kind of reverse psychology tactic before: someone is having trouble filling a group, so they post an exclusionary message hoping to goad someone of the AT they were actually hoping for into joining their group to "prove them wrong."

 

I don't know how successful a strategy it is, but I did see someone admit to doing it in LFG.

[Primantis]

I have seen this used as some kind of reverse psychology tactic before: someone is having trouble filling a group, so they post an exclusionary message hoping to goad someone of the AT they were actually hoping for into joining their group to "prove them wrong."

 

I don't know how successful a strategy it is, but I did see someone admit to doing it in LFG.

 

Ah yes.

 

Similar to the tactic of asking a question over global, then having a friend answer it incorrectly. A sure fire way to get tons of people correcting your friend with the right answer. Whereas they might not have even bothered to respond otherwise.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

There has always been a certain prejudice for the kheldians due to the multi form aspect. as a nova they cant blast half as well as a serious blaster, as a dwarf they cant tank half as well as a good tank. Human form is pretty much the only good WS or PB and yet many go tri form because of the COOL factor they find in shape shifting.

 

Then there is the RP aspect. my namesake in game is anti nictus to the extreme. And he sees war shades and peace bringers as little different. Body thieving parasites wearing skin suits. They can talk about a merge and blending as something noble etc, but to Ol Berk they are all enemies of mankind serving the path of the dark and he rarely tolerates their presence for long.

 

In fact only when I am running pug TFs and rp is put on the back burner does berk ever work with them. However if someone makes it clear in their bio theya re not a kheldian just as I do in my 2 human form PBs bios then I respect that RP and treat them as non khelds.

 

So from a meta perspective I understand how someone super anal and wanting their ideal team etc would avoid khelds, which for the record I think is douche bag elitism. I am all about all ATs welcome when i run TFs and dont care what the AT make up ends up being. And from an RP pov I can see why people might not want them on teams either.

 

A former arachnos soldier free of their cultish masters is far more relatable then a space demon in a skin suit.

[KnightSoul]

It’s a goof people are doing, that’s all.

It certainly started as a goof.  But some goofs may not have gotten that memo.

 

So become a Squidranger.  You can find them wherever someone says "No Warshades." 

 

No Brutes.  ;D

[Shinobu]

 

I think one of the things about khelds is that they're generalists, and because of that they're really useful in the lower levels, but at high levels the specialists kind of come into their own and take over.  Doesn't make the generalist less useful, but to me it's a bit like being a shaman or a druid back in Everquest, the first MMO I played.  Sure you're a healer and buffer, but we need a CLERIC, is the attitude a lot of people had.  People have the same attitude about khelds... you can blast, but you're not a BLASTER.  You can taunt, but you're not a TANK or a BRUTE.  Etc.

 

Which is dumb because if there ever was a game where literally any AT will do at almost any time, it's CoH.

 

[Sunsette]

The other day I was on my thermal support and we had a Warshade enter the group. I was very glad; we went from scraping by to survive to me having to just do basic maintenance, which is great when I'm still learning how to play MM.

 

Not long before the Brute pipes up: "stop knocking back or I stop tanking."

 

I mention that Warshades can't really help it, not without a build change. The Warshade herself is quiet, I guess she's used to it. A few pulls later, in a fit the Brute goes off to doorsit.

 

Rest of the mission was cleared just fine, quickly and efficiently.

 

I'm quite sensitive to the idea that KB is often unnecessarily disruptive in this game, and have a litany of suggestions for ways to improve this on this server. Like, most of my characters have been scrappers or brutes, I get it, having the dude fly away mid-punch isn't fun. But sometimes, people should just ... chill. I don't have any shame in saying that that Warshade was carrying us, they were a one-woman storm of death.

[Hjarki]

"Tank and herd and AoE" seems to have become a popular tactic since the game came back and its fans do not like anything that scatters mobs.

 

It's 'popular' because it's effective. Taking apart spawns with AE attacks is significantly faster than having to take down every mob one by one.

 

In many high level groups, your Brute or Tanker can just as easily solo the content you're doing. Now, if your contribution helps them solo faster, that's one thing. But when your contribution is to reduce their effectiveness, why would they want to bring you along?

 

Builds with uncontrolled knockback do precisely that.

[Legree]

In many high level groups, your Brute or Tanker can just as easily solo the content you're doing. Now, if your contribution helps them solo faster, that's one thing. But when your contribution is to reduce their effectiveness, why would they want to bring you along?

 

How nice of the Tank to invite us lesser mortals along for the ride.

 

Honestly it's this kind of thinking that makes me dislike the tank 'n herd 'n AoE playstyle.  On live I spent most of my time on redside and since we had no dedicated tanks and no /Empathy this holy trinity stuff never came up... and the teams were better for it.  I did see it rear its ugly head from time to time on blueside, but we're not running dungeons in WoW here and there's very little content in this game that requires a tank.

 

The problem for tanks isn't uncontrolled knockback.  The problem with tanks is that they are not a must-have in 99% of the game.  Personally I'd rather run solo or on a less optimal team than run with a tank who expects my warshade (or blaster) to behave as nothing more than a mobile gun turret to augment his XP per second.

[Xaeon]

There has always been a certain prejudice for the kheldians due to the multi form aspect. as a nova they cant blast half as well as a serious blaster, as a dwarf they cant tank half as well as a good tank. Human form is pretty much the only good WS or PB and yet many go tri form because of the COOL factor they find in shape shifting.

 

Then there is the RP aspect. my namesake in game is anti nictus to the extreme. And he sees war shades and peace bringers as little different. Body thieving parasites wearing skin suits. They can talk about a merge and blending as something noble etc, but to Ol Berk they are all enemies of mankind serving the path of the dark and he rarely tolerates their presence for long.

 

In fact only when I am running pug TFs and rp is put on the back burner does berk ever work with them. However if someone makes it clear in their bio theya re not a kheldian just as I do in my 2 human form PBs bios then I respect that RP and treat them as non khelds.

 

So from a meta perspective I understand how someone super anal and wanting their ideal team etc would avoid khelds, which for the record I think is douche bag elitism. I am all about all ATs welcome when i run TFs and dont care what the AT make up ends up being. And from an RP pov I can see why people might not want them on teams either.

 

A former arachnos soldier free of their cultish masters is far more relatable then a space demon in a skin suit.

>Human form warshades better than Tri-form MF'ing purpled out warshades.

 

Nice meme bro.

[Sunsette]

"Tank and herd and AoE" seems to have become a popular tactic since the game came back and its fans do not like anything that scatters mobs.

 

It's 'popular' because it's effective. Taking apart spawns with AE attacks is significantly faster than having to take down every mob one by one.

 

In many high level groups, your Brute or Tanker can just as easily solo the content you're doing. Now, if your contribution helps them solo faster, that's one thing. But when your contribution is to reduce their effectiveness, why would they want to bring you along?

 

Builds with uncontrolled knockback do precisely that.

 

Quite a few ATs can solo those groups fine too -- it's not a special trait held by the Brute or Tanker. There are situations in which contributions can slow everyone down, but it's not automatically dependent on the tank. The most important thing is that mobs are consistently controlled, and outside of an AV, multiple ATs can pull that off.

[MunkiLord]

Human form is pretty much the only good WS or PB

 

People thinking about rolling a Kheld can safely ignore this nonsense.

 

 

In many high level groups, your Brute or Tanker can just as easily solo the content you're doing. Now, if your contribution helps them solo faster, that's one thing. But when your contribution is to reduce their effectiveness, why would they want to bring you along?

 

Builds with uncontrolled knockback do precisely that.

 

Waiting on herding is slow and boring.

[Microcosm]

Waiting on herding is slow and boring.

This, so much. Not to mention, if you're talking "high level", IOd out warshades in triform are going to mow down mobs faster than most tanks and brutes, with maybe exceptions of things like spines/fire. Not trying to start something, it's just a really good AoE AT. The brute holds aggro better; the brute (probably) does better single target damage when you come against the AV. That's the beauty of a TEAM working together.

 

As to the kb, PBs actually do more kb than warshades by a good margin, which is also a good indicator that in game this is a joke. There are -kb IOs out there and many khelds take advantage of them. But there's also what someone else said that a good warshade does his kb from directly above the group, which in effect makes it turn to knockdown. Also also, you can get a warshade to damage cap himself in heavy aoe situations, then kb the crap out of a group with his nuke. I've seen literally every enemy in the group die from this combo (except whatever was missed by the nuke) and I kid you not, someone complained about the kb... Some people are always going to cover their eyes and ears, so you just ignore them or don't team with them, which tends to make both sides happy.

[Jaguaratron]

They are still a clunky design, an epic class in concept that never really lived up to the problems placed in their way (quants/voids/crystals) which were brutal for the longest time, probably on the back of Jacks idiot "dying over and over and over is the fun part" mantra. the VEATs were completely different, less ambitious, more accessible and brought benefits to the team as opposed to fusterclucking pita mob types into the mix. This mess created a genetic memory that some will find hard to let go.

 

Now the voids/quants/crystals are a reduced threat but the class is still pretty clunky with too many powers and not enough slots to make best use of them (even with IOs and boosters) but unforgivably in my book, the human form ws/pb STILL lack mez protection which ruins a good proportion of the class (IMO)

 

TLDR, doesnt really matter if people bring a PB/WS or not anymore.