Dual-Boxing PVE

[KR Dumpster Diver]

Hello. Hope all is well with Everyone.

 

For weeks, I have been running daily PVE PUGS. And "dual-boxers" are becoming prevalent on these teams. Many of these accounts are "snuck-in".

 

These accounts are being used for "alts" to do bare minimum and get a "free" ride. Through different ways they get onto PVE PUGs, and then they just "coast". Or literally go AFK at mission doors. 

 

Dual-Boxing is nothing new since Live. In fact, Dev rules and policies have muddled this whole issue, because Dual-boxing is  "encouraged"; yet, then "restricted" with conflicting actions and policies. Because of these policies, I have been on Teams with Users having 1-6 "dual-boxer accounts" in one sitting.

 

Overall, there are "pros and cons" to dual-boxing. And for Farmers, I think dual-boxers are a separate issue. This is an entire debate in itself which has already been brought up in years prior. 

 

However, with PVE PUGS, I try to recruit REAL people who WANT to play and are ACTIVELY contributing to the team.

 

Is there are a way to implement some feature that lets a Team Lead know: "Your choice to invite this account which is a (Dual-boxer)" or such?

 

Thanks in advance.

[lemming]

I don't think there's a way to tell by an account which are alts of other accounts unless they're named "Lemming Prime" and "Lemming Alt"

 

Farming, totally different subject to just ignore as you say.

 

In play with other people, it should only be when the team is fine with it.    I know of plenty of dual boxing to make some TFs quicker by having a league with the alts parked where the team doing to TF gets incan'd to.

On PUGs, only if the team lead is alright with it and other members are aware.   (Nothing like coming into a team and finding out you're expected to carry 75% of the team)

[Glacier Peak]

The multi-box policy that Homecoming has had for six and a half years has been fine. 

 

Team leader has the kick button for a reason. 

[Neiska]

I multibox, but 99% of the time its either farming or doing stuff solo. Sometimes I might go hunt big monsters for funs or things of that nature. If a multiboxer starts a team, I think they should tell other people they are doing that, so people can leave if that isn't their vibe. Also if they join a team, they should say so, so if other people have an issue with it they can say so. And yes, leader has final say on what is or isn't okay for the team. 

 

If you join a team and someone's multi-boxing and you don't like it, you can seek a better team or start your own. But I've found that a moments communication is often better than a lot of grief. In the handful of times I have been in a similar situation, the multiboxer was happy to drop one or both. Not once have I seen a multiboxer go "na I don't wana, you have to kick me" etc. But I have only encountered this (that I am aware of) a handful of times in a few years of play. So there is that. 

[Without_Pause]

I wouldn't say dual-boxing is encouraged. There's rules for it and that's it. I only dual-box when solo. I've seen dual-boxers on a team. I personally just move on from said team.

[BlackSpectre]

Honestly, HC could add a line about how dual boxing is prohibited on any team whose leader did not agree… and it would have no effect. It’s unenforceable, let alone non-detectable. Therefore adding such a line to the policy, or not, would be fine. 
 

As a team or league leader it is your job to form the team, which includes its composition.  It is entirely up to you 
 

You could always send a newly invited teammate a “disclosure” notice that:

 

“No dual boxing or door sitting will be tolerated, and team members are expected to pull their own weight and not merely follow the team around. Refusal to adhere to these guidelines will result in immediate removal from the team and their global name to be placed on the leaders ignore list.”

 

Then it’s up to you to police it to the best of your ability. 

That’s if you want to be a hard ass about it. Hell, since they were thoughtless and had alt accounts join the team without asking you first, you can just kick them from the team without saying anything. Be just as inconsiderate. There are many players out there who just do their own thing without considering others or even at the expense of others. If they can get away with it, they’ll do it and justify it as being your fault since you’re so lax or weak or uptight. So don’t feel hesitant to use the kick button and ignore them on the spot. They deserve it. 
 

That said, I’ve always found that enforcing this kind of stuff is a real hassle. So I’ve taken a more pragmatic and laid back approach… as long as the team or league is doing well, I really don’t care what players do. They could be door sitting or going off by themselves to fight on their own, or splitting up the team. If they’re off by themselves and die multiple times and then quit, it’s their own fault for not sticking with the rest of the team. In my eyes, as long as the mission is going well, it’s all good. 
 

And if they send me a tell asking if it’s OK for them to have an alt join as a sitter, I almost always agree. It’s the very rare PUG where the absence of 1 or 2 teammates make any kind of difference. 

 

In addition, If they said or did something to piss me off (which is not easy to do), on the ignore list they go.  And every Christmas I wipe my ignore list clean and give all of them another chance to be a better person.  Just call it my holiday goodwill.

 

 

 

[Crossie]

I don't think I have ever hosted or been on a pug team where this was an issue (or at least I never noticed it).  Surely I can't be the only person who feels disconnected from OP's claim?  

[tidge]

54 minutes ago, Crossie said:

I don't think I have ever hosted or been on a pug team where this was an issue (or at least I never noticed it).  Surely I can't be the only person who feels disconnected from OP's claim?  

 

I've encountered multi-boxers on PUGs (for door missions), but I only noticed it long ago. Sometimes we could have used "active" help, so that non-plussed me. I was also non-plussed (but not really hurt) that somebody was reaping multiple individual rewards based partially on my effort.... but these rewards are gated behind instanced missions so I can shrug, or quit... I have some agency here.

 

I daily experience multi-boxers doing open-world Giant Monster hunts. I find this behavior to be borderline abusive of the game mechanics. Other players have no real agency here, and the monsters are now reset for everybody else. I know that some players feel the same about players who solo Giant Monsters with a single character, but there is a big difference between a triple-boxer using 3x Lore pets to wipe Adamastor and any single solo character hunting GMs.

[ShardWarrior]

16 hours ago, Neiska said:

If a multiboxer starts a team, I think they should tell other people they are doing that, so people can leave if that isn't their vibe. Also if they join a team, they should say so, so if other people have an issue with it they can say so. And yes, leader has final say on what is or isn't okay for the team.

 

This sums up my feelings on the subject.  Communicating to others is the sensible, courteous thing to do.  I have no issue with multi-boxing so long as the people doing it are transparent and let others know.  Most servers have tiny populations, so multi-boxing is going to be inevitable.

[Troo]

20 hours ago, KR Dumpster Diver said:

Is there are a way to implement some feature that lets a Team Lead know: "Your choice to invite this account which is a (Dual-boxer)" or such?

 

Right click on character > Add Note

 

[Ukase]

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday, a nice enough fellow was leading a league to defeat event GMs in Atlas. Now, to be very fair, they were technically within HC guidelines. But not MY guidelines. I have my own set of rules that restrict me more than HC's rules. And as much as I'd love to enforce my rules on everyone else, I don't get to do that - and really that's for the best. Because if some folks put their rules on me, and were enforced, I'd probably quit. 

I don't like dual boxers in pve content on a shard like Excelsior because there are plenty of people (usually) to do what needs to be done. And I don't like this leader getting 2x the rewards just because they have an alt that's leading team 2. Maybe it's using incan to speed things along. And candidly - they're not hurting me - they're helping me. I am getting more merits per minute because of their alt. But I still don't like it because they're getting 2x, and I'm getting x. 

I'm sure that says more about me than it does about them. It shouldn't bother me. But it does. So, I thank them for the team up (and I could tell they were dual boxing by the similarity of global names. As an example think "Example" and "Examp1e" or "Eximple". 

Super nice player. They weren't rude. But still, it made me resentful so I left the league and went in pursuit of different merits. I have multiple accounts. I've never dual boxed with anyone else on my team - except for specific tasks when I was requested. 

Low pop shard on Victory trying to get an MSR off the ground. I was told it was okay, and encouraged in that context and took them at their word. I'd spam buffs every 2 minutes with one alt, and actively play the other. 

The other circumstance is Swiss Draw PvP badge - it can be tough getting 8 badge nerds on at certain hours. And I didn't even care about the badges for myself - but wanted to help the other player. So, I loaded up 3 characters when Excelsior only had 496 players on and 15 minutes of LFG didn't bring us enough interested. 

Most players are upfront about this. But when they're not, it leaves me with some irksome resentment that makes me want to just leave, so I usually do. And candidly, sometimes when they're upfront, it still bugs me unless it's on the lower pop shards. On Excelsior - most of the time there's just no reason to do this. 

[tidge]

1 hour ago, Ukase said:

Thanks for posting this. Yesterday, a nice enough fellow was leading a league to defeat event GMs in Atlas.  
[...]
I don't like dual boxers in pve content on a shard like Excelsior because there are plenty of people (usually) to do what needs to be done. And I don't like this leader getting 2x the rewards just because they have an alt that's leading team 2. Maybe it's using incan to speed things along. And candidly - they're not hurting me - they're helping me. I am getting more merits per minute because of their alt. But I still don't like it because they're getting 2x, and I'm getting x. 

 

Of all the Giant Monsters, the Atlas Park event ones are the least in need of being multi-boxed, especially in a league. Its clowns like the one described that will ruin this sort of opportunity for everyone, just like they did for Ghost of Scrapyard.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, tidge said:

Of all the Giant Monsters, the Atlas Park event ones are the least in need of being multi-boxed, especially in a league. Its clowns like the one described that will ruin this sort of opportunity for everyone, just like they did for Ghost of Scrapyard.

 

Atlas Park is a very good example of the problem with the Halloween GMs. 

 

You have players multi-boxing numerous accounts with alt characters camping each spawn point for the Halloween event GMs.  Once a GM appears, they incan their other accounts to the location without announcing the location to others in broadcast.  The GM is basically dead before anyone else gets there and has a chance to even engage.  There's no real effort involved.  Just in the last week, I have seen the same person(s) spawn camping and incanning alts to farm GMs regardless of the time of day I have been online.  

 

I do not know if it possible to code this or not, but perhaps it might make sense to put a daily cap on merits gained by defeating seasonal event GMs.  That might curtail the farming of them.  

[srmalloy]

9 hours ago, BlackSpectre said:

Honestly, HC could add a line about how dual boxing is prohibited on any team whose leader did not agree… and it would have no effect. It’s unenforceable, let alone non-detectable.

You could approximate a dual-boxing detection by tweaking the client to monitor the currently logged-in character, with a timer for how long the character has been set to Follow and how long it has been since the character used a power that was neither a toggle nor on autofire, autokicking characters for whom both counters run over a designated time limit. This would catch the people who double-box with one character set to follow, spamming some defensive power (i.e., Speed Boost, healing, etc.). The detection is easily foiled by switching to the alt character periodically and using some other PBAoE power, and it won't catch doorsitters, where the character isn't moving at all. It's a solution, but neither a complete nor a good one.

[tidge]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I do not know if it possible to code this or not, but perhaps it might make sense to put a daily cap on merits gained by defeating seasonal event GMs.  That might curtail the farming of them.  

 

This would be an example of "ruining for everybody"... because there are zones other than Atlas Park which may not be as easy to sweep but for which the GMs offer equally scaled challenge levels. The nicest thing about the Halloween GMs is that they respawn within mere minutes, so GM hunting is a nice alternative to TOTing, for a different set of rewards. We (players) could for years cycle a Scrapyard event for when we needed an extra 6+ merits, up until *redacted* realized "hur hur moar" and forced the devs hand. Almost as bad would be updating the Halloween event versions to the "modern" versions of the GMs.

 

Personally: I'd update the terms that made open-world multi-boxing for rewards a nono. There might be times when a multi-boxer is getting ready to start a TF, or whatever... but it is immediately obvious when a multi-boxer is ganking/camping for a Giant Monster. Multi-boxing makes all other rewards that much easier, why do open-world hunts have to be part of that? 

 

I don't care if multi-boxing takes place in an instance, because it isn't affecting anybody else not in the instance (modulo possible second-order effects on the economy). I'm not even that down on "AFK TOTers", although if I had to wager if these were multi-boxing or not I'd bet multi.

[Snarky]

Have each recruited player send you their left thumb.  Anyone who cannot send you their left thumb must already be on your team.

 

You are welcome.

[Ghost]

Mostly true story…

Snarky once started a team while multi boxing.  His alt got mad at the team lead, and quit the team in the middle of a TF.

[biostem]

If it is obvious, and you are not the team leader, send a polite message to the team leader, informing them of your suspicion, and let them handle it.  If the team leader is ok with them dual-boxing, then all you can really do is either accept it or excuse yourself from the team.  I don't think adding yet more rules to the ToS or CoC will fix this...

[Crysis]

I multibox frequently, but generally its in AE AFK farming.  On the rare occasion I’m multiboxing in PvE missions, it’s with friends doing likewise or its to allow an alt to get a needed Accolade/badge credit.  Otherwise, its just too much work to drag around my alts in PVE missions.

 

If I recruited anyone who just door sits during missions, I’d boot them.  If someone else complains, it’s likely the primary account to their alt.  You lead, kick if needed.

 

That said, I can count on one hand the number of times this has happened to me through all of Live and since launch of Homecoming.  I think it’s a bit of a stretch to say this is “prevalent.”  It’s like once in a blue moon.

[ShardWarrior]

16 hours ago, tidge said:

This would be an example of "ruining for everybody"... because there are zones other than Atlas Park which may not be as easy to sweep but for which the GMs offer equally scaled challenge levels.

 

It is the people who are actively hunting that are impacted the most.  Multi-boxers can set up shop in any zone, camp the known GM spawn points and incan themselves to defeat GMs as they appear before anyone else has a chance to engage.  It does not matter if it is in Atlas, PI, Grandville, Mercy Island or wherever else.  

 

16 hours ago, tidge said:

Personally: I'd update the terms that made open-world multi-boxing for rewards a nono.

 

How do you expect to enforce this?

Edited 2 hours ago by ShardWarrior

[tidge]

57 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

 

It is the people who are actively hunting that are impacted the most.  Multi-boxers can set up shop in any zone, camp the known GM spawn points and incan themselves to defeat GMs as they appear before anyone else has a chance to engage.  It does not matter if it is in Atlas, PI, Grandville, Mercy Island or wherever else.  

 

 

How do you expect to enforce this?

 

A couple of points: In my experience people open-world multi-box because they've landed on this as a "local maximum" on the rewards vs. effort curve. I never seen multi-boxers setting up for (event) Giant Monsters in zones above a certain level because the GMs get harder as the zones level (this was an old effect no longer in play for typical zone GMs). IN other words: no multiboxer is going to waste time in Grandville hunting the Giant Monsters when Atlas Park is available.

 

As for enforcement: It would have to be like every other code-of-conduct element is enforced. How that actually shakes out is up to others, not me. I have no idea how these things are enforced, except when I witness "genericed" characters. I don't expect folks to be actively policing, but if it was a code-of-conduct violation then at least I'd have an expectation of investigation when reported.

 

[roleki]

On the flip side, I ran about 50 SBBs back-to-back with someone who was dual-boxing Masterminds and the way she had everything macro'd and mapped, her 'alt' was more active than all but the most-caffeinated of PUGlies.  Point being, it is possible to multi-box and contribute with both characters, so don't be too hasty to write them off completely.

[tidge]

15 minutes ago, roleki said:

On the flip side, I ran about 50 SBBs back-to-back with someone who was dual-boxing Masterminds and the way she had everything macro'd and mapped, her 'alt' was more active than all but the most-caffeinated of PUGlies.  Point being, it is possible to multi-box and contribute with both characters, so don't be too hasty to write them off completely.

 

I've also seen some relatively active dual-box MMs... again my personal agita is specific to open-world hunts, definitely not instanced material.

[Ukase]

19 minutes ago, roleki said:

Point being, it is possible to multi-box and contribute with both characters, so don't be too hasty to write them off completely.

In that kind of context, it's in an instance, and really - that specific case, only two others could have had a problem with it, you and the other player not dual boxing. 

And really, I want to reiterate - in my specific example, this player was broadcasting where the gms were, and was actively recruiting for more to join. And I left out a detail. There were maybe 10 of us. I don't know that I'd want someone to get "in trouble", I'd just want them to play with their one character and get the same rewards as me. 

I dual box fairly routinely. For invader, for AM and Siege, and in AE for vet levels. And very infrequently to help someone with pvp Swiss Draw. 

I would certainly adapt to whatever changes, if any, HC decided on. I look at why I do things like AM and Siege dual boxing, instead of running the arc, and I'm not sure it's because I've done the content hundreds of times. I think it's because it's faster. I get the accolade sooner. Then I can look at doing what might be fun, as opposed to what feels like a minimal investment in my character. 

I'm past really sweating merits. I haven't done a weekly tf in a month or so, and that was because of a theme team I run with. But if I was really wanting efficient merits, I think there's easier ways to get them multi-box, but I'm sure there are shenanigans I don't know or haven't thought of. 

[Snarky]

17 hours ago, Ghost said:

Mostly true story…

Snarky once started a team while multi boxing.  His alt got mad at the team lead, and quit the team in the middle of a TF.

In my defense the team lead did not know what the F he was doing.