Make the early game fun: Remove TOs/DOs.

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, Auroxis said:

To expand on the Attune concept, I suggest this:

 

Training Origin Enhancements will basically be Attuned IO's with a max level of 10.

 

Dual Origin Enhancements will basically be Attuned IO's with a max level of 20.

 

This keeps SO's relevant since they're more powerful, DO's become a "safety net" of sorts if you overlevel, and TO's are brought back to relevancy while staying true to their purpose.

The challenge I see with Attuning TO/DO's are that they basically become & replace IO's without the cost.  Lvl 5/10 IO's are basically attuned TO's, and lvl 15/20 IO's are basically attuned DO's...we would be just reinventing the wheel by making this change...

 

One option would be to expand the effective level of TO's and DO's...

What if TO's could be slotted at 5 lvl's above your Security Level, and DO's at 4 lvl's above?  Currently it's only 3 lvls above for all enhancements.  You could slot them for more effect sooner, and wouldn't have to replace them as often...

 

And then raise the drop lvl of TO's by 2 across the board (defeating a lvl 3 Hellion might drop a lvl 8 TO), and raise the drop lvl of DO's by 1 across the board...

 

Tie that in with increase TO drop rates overall, and the earlier suggestions of dropping DO's for any mission complete (for the whole team), and SO's as a story arc reward, and we'd see some real impact without taking away from IO's at all...

[Bionic_Flea]

"Attuned" doesn't just mean that you don't out level it, it also means that the enhancement grows in value with you as you level.

 

That's why I don't think having attuned DOs or attuned up to level 20 is a good idea.  It muddles the meaning of attuned.

 

Regarding starter zones: there are three: Atlas Park , Mercy Island, and Nova Preatoria.  I understand that most people go to Atlas, but that doesn't make the other two zones disappear.

[ShardWarrior]

16 hours ago, Moonshades said:

It has never been the M.O. Of The City dev team, whether Cryptic, Paragon or Homecoming take content out of the game. When new zones with new content came out  such as the Hollows or Croatoa, issue 0 content wasn't taken out, newer content was put in along side of the old. Same for enhancements. New options to gain better enhancements exist already and you can choose to use them, or not. If not, then you can slot TOs or run naked until you can get the enhancement you want.

I believe you have missed the point entirely here.  Again, no one is suggesting removing content just for the sake of removing it.  The question being asked is how to improve it?  Personally, I think leaving everything as is only works for a certain length of time.  At some point, the content get stale.

[ShardWarrior]

1 hour ago, GM Capocollo said:

There is a particular critical matter that has to be resolved first before anyone can commit to any long-term plans.  In the meantime, the current priority's on backend stability, since that's the foundation for everything else that will come afterwards.  Major QOL improvements to the early leveling experience are a ways down the path yet, as I understand it.

Can't speak for everyone however I think this goes without saying.  This is just a discussion at this point and certainly has other priorities ahead of it.

[justicebeliever]

12 minutes ago, ShardWarrior said:

I believe you have missed the point entirely here.  Again, no one is suggesting removing content just for the sake of removing it.  The question being asked is how to improve it?  Personally, I think leaving everything as is only works for a certain length of time.  At some point, the content get stale.

I agree with ShardWarrior...it's not "let's rip out TO/DO's because we want SO's to get MOAR power", it's how to make the lower levels more engaging...And I would agree that TO's are pretty useless...so how do we make it better...

[Infinitum]

If I'm leveling slow I go through the hollows storylines, I love them, and think its some of the most fun content in the game.

 

If I'm leveling fast I'm doing it through AE I can get to lvl 30 in around 2 hours.

 

Either way I have two approaches to slotting.  I will either transfer tje 800 mil to properly set out to the max from another toon, or I will slot at lol 22 with IOs because with a good team not slotting till then isnt noticeable anyway following content lile the hollows and in AE it doesnt matter.

 

If I chose IOs at lvl 22 I'm respecing at lvl 47 and transferring the IOs as handmedowns to the next toon.

 

I rarely use TOs but they arent in my way either.

[Moonshades]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

I believe you have missed the point entirely here.  Again, no one is suggesting removing content just for the sake of removing it.  The question being asked is how to improve it?  Personally, I think leaving everything as is only works for a certain length of time.  At some point, the content get stale.

The point, as I understood, wasn't about the content to begin with but whether training enhancements were worthwhile or whether the game should be made easier by letting everyone go hog wild and have SOs right out of the gate. Now you're talking about content getting stale, which has nothing to do with your original point.

[GM Sijin]

1 hour ago, justicebeliever said:

And I would agree that TO's are pretty useless...so how do we make it better...

I'd suggest by starting to examine the first statement. After all, it's pretty hard to solve for a problem that isn't well defined.

 

Why do you consider TOs useless? Their enhancement effects are worth exactly 1/2 of DOs and exactly 1/4th of SOs, and if you approach your statement mathematically, then DOs and SOs are also useless (0*4=0). We probably all agree that this isn't true (ignoring the "IOs are superior" argument) so the discussion really isn't about objectivity, but subjectivity. List the issues attributing to this feeling of uselessness, understanding that others may disagree as it is a subjective matter, so that we may discuss the issues and their potential solutions.

 

The keys here are that more specific you can be in your issues the easier it tends to be to find solutions, and the more completely you can encapsulate the entirety of the causes of the problem the more likely a proposed solution is to actually feel like it solved the issue. In other words: "It sucks" doesn't help.

[ShardWarrior]

44 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

The point, as I understood, wasn't about the content to begin with but whether training enhancements were worthwhile or whether the game should be made easier by letting everyone go hog wild and have SOs right out of the gate. Now you're talking about content getting stale, which has nothing to do with your original point. 

Discussions evolve as people share ideas - that should go without saying.

[justicebeliever]

1 hour ago, Moonshades said:

The point, as I understood, wasn't about the content to begin with but whether training enhancements were worthwhile or whether the game should be made easier by letting everyone go hog wild and have SOs right out of the gate. Now you're talking about content getting stale, which has nothing to do with your original point.

I had a hard time shifting as well, because we are way off from the OP, but I would agree it’s a good discussion to have about how to make things better

[Moonshades]

1 hour ago, ShardWarrior said:

Discussions evolve as people share ideas - that should go without saying.

If you want to make a new thread about adding or updating game content, that's a thing you can do. I wouldn't even disagree with you. Some of the legacy content is pretty dry and monotonous, but that's not just a symptom of the early game but of content throughout the levels. That being the case, we come a long enough distance from talking about low level training enhancements to where it's no longer germane to this thread.

 

As for the original topic, i don't see where there's anything else to be said, on my part.

[justicebeliever]

25 minutes ago, Moonshades said:

If you want to make a new thread about adding or updating game content, that's a thing you can do. I wouldn't even disagree with you. Some of the legacy content is pretty dry and monotonous, but that's not just a symptom of the early game but of content throughout the levels. That being the case, we come a long enough distance from talking about low level training enhancements to where it's no longer germane to this thread.

 

As for the original topic, i don't see where there's anything else to be said, on my part.

That's also fair...I think I'm done on this thread as well...but happy to continue discussing on another one...

[Some Random User]

6 hours ago, GM Sijin said:

Why do you consider TOs useless? Their enhancement effects are worth exactly 1/2 of DOs and exactly 1/4th of SOs, and if you approach your statement mathematically, then DOs and SOs are also useless (0*4=0). We probably all agree that this isn't true (ignoring the "IOs are superior" argument) so the discussion really isn't about objectivity, but subjectivity. List the issues attributing to this feeling of uselessness, understanding that others may disagree as it is a subjective matter, so that we may discuss the issues and their potential solutions.

The anecdote earlier in the thread where a new player had said they didn't keep using Enhancements because they didn't seem to have an effect. That, that is why we should care about this. I can back up that, when I offer to help, almost every new player that mentions being frustrated winds up having done the same thing.

 

I remember there was a post in the old forums that stuck with me, something where one of the live devs, I think Jack Emmert, was saying that % changes they made weren't noticed by the players until they hit a certain threshold, something like 17.5%, and that stuck with me as an important consideration when we design games. I think that's what's happening here, I think the bonuses are so small that you can't really tell you've used the Enhancements. That's why I keep suggesting things that avoid that problem; things like adding mez procs or making D.O.s drop Attuned and removing T.O.s entirely in favor of D.O.s instead.

 

When I help new players I've been handing out full sets of level 20 I.O.s to them and telling them to just sell all T.O.s and D.O.s that they get, since the bonuses are small enough for you to not see the effects. This is not a symptom of a healthy mechanic.

[Jeuraud]

On 8/9/2019 at 10:28 AM, GM Sijin said:

I'd suggest by starting to examine the first statement. After all, it's pretty hard to solve for a problem that isn't well defined.

 

Why do you consider TOs useless? Their enhancement effects are worth exactly 1/2 of DOs and exactly 1/4th of SOs, and if you approach your statement mathematically, then DOs and SOs are also useless (0*4=0). We probably all agree that this isn't true (ignoring the "IOs are superior" argument) so the discussion really isn't about objectivity, but subjectivity. List the issues attributing to this feeling of uselessness, understanding that others may disagree as it is a subjective matter, so that we may discuss the issues and their potential solutions.

 

The keys here are that more specific you can be in your issues the easier it tends to be to find solutions, and the more completely you can encapsulate the entirety of the causes of the problem the more likely a proposed solution is to actually feel like it solved the issue. In other words: "It sucks" doesn't help.

When I say "useless" I mean it adds no measurable advantage to the fight.

A 8.35% Damage TO will not reduce the number of attacks it takes to defeat a MOB. A 5% Def Buff or Def Debuff TO will not reduce the number of times I'm hit.

 

It gets worse though because as you level, the MOBs ramp up and the Character falls behind them, and TOs will not bring you up to their level. You will start taking more damage, and you will be required to make more attacks, using more endurance, against +0s. If your a NewB and you pay attention to your game you will try to slot TOs to counter this, but they will not make a difference. I've found that even 2 slotting with Damage TOs makes no measurable difference. The only TO that makes a measurable difference is the Acc TO, and that is because it can keep you at the 1-Miss Streakbreaker, for +0 Minions, with Beginners Luck, up to level 10.  Before the Streakbreaker and Beginners Luck they were also mechanically useless. Now maybe if you were able to 3 slot with the same TO type in every power it might make a difference, but you don't have enough slots available for each power.

Also another factor as you level up; you start seeing more +1s in Missions, to the point that by level 9/10 you start seeing more +1s than +0s, and can even come across +1 Named Lts. You are facing off against +1s with TOs that did not help against +0s. The -1 adjustment for Missions was put in for a reason.

 

Something to note, DOs only help for a couple of levels, then you start dropping behind the MOBs again, until you can slot with SOs.

 

Of course if all you do is DFB to level 17 then your not going to see any of this.

 

My Opinion

TOs need to go away. DOs dropped down to TO place. SOs dropped down to DO place.

SOs should be Mission reward.

SO+3 should be Arc reward.

 

 

 

[Crysis]

On 8/7/2019 at 2:16 PM, kenlon said:

This is a pipe dream, but:

 

The biggest problem with the early game in CoH, and the biggest reason that people want to powerlevel past it as fast as possible, is that playing before you get SO level bonuses *sucks balls*. (Yes, I know that most people are using IOs, not SOs, but the principle applies. Having a limited selection of powers and a small number of slots in them is limiting enough, without having enhancements that do almost nothing for you. If we could slot in SOs right from the start, then doing mission arcs or radio missions would actually be a fun alternative to running DFB over and over again to get to 22.

 

Thoughts?

With respect, there has yet to be a single change/nerf/adjustment/improvement made to this game that entices/forces everyone else to play the way you (or anyone else) intend/desire for them to play.  

 

I really wish people would stop this kind of behavior of trying to dictate that others play their preferred way.  The game is enjoyable BECAUSE it doesn’t restrict how you play.  Want to go wallop some level 3 minions in Perez Park in your 50’s?  Be my guest.  Want to exemplar down 45 levels and play?  Sure.  Want to sidekick up 45 levels and play?  Of course.  Want to play the ENTIRE GAME as an unslotted character?  Nobody stopping you.  Want to street sweep your way to level 50 and never once take a mission/contact, saving them all for lvl 50 Ouro?  You can do that (I have a couple of times, its a slog, but its do-able).  Want to PL to 32, 38 or 50 so that you can start the game feeling super-powered?  Numerous options exist to allow you to do that...including DIB/DFB, AE and Portal missions.

 

There’s really no need to try to force others to play a certain way.  Nothing good will come from it other than irritated players and a shrinking player base.  Likely far more than forcing people to “like” playing the game the way you enjoy it.  Just be thankful you have players here at all.

[kelly Rocket]

Truthfully... Even if TOs/DOs were as strong as SOs/IOs... I STILL would never slot them. They stop working after 5 levels at most. That's like an hour of play--assuming you're not DfBing to powerlevel, because if you are it's even less time.

 

It's not worth spending the influence. No matter how good they are, I wouldn't use them, ever.

 

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by kelly Rocket

[Jimmy]

1 hour ago, kelly Rocket said:

Truthfully... Even if TOs/DOs were as strong as SOs/IOs... I STILL would never slot them. They stop working after 5 levels at most. That's like an hour of play--assuming you're not DfBing to powerlevel, because if you are it's even less time.

 

It's not worth spending the influence. No matter how good they are, I wouldn't use them, ever.

 

 

In my view this is the key issue, not that TOs/DOs are weak to begin with.

[Some Random User]

2 hours ago, Jimmy said:

In my view this is the key issue, not that TOs/DOs are weak to begin with.

Make D.O.s drop Attuned.

[_NOPE_]

Then they wouldn't be DOs. I think Jimmy's just suggesting that they take away the "expiration". So basically replace them with level IOs? 

[justicebeliever]

3 minutes ago, The Philotic Knight said:

Then they wouldn't be DOs. I think Jimmy's just suggesting that they take away the "expiration". So basically replace them with level IOs? 

If they drop attuned, then they are IO's without the crafting cost. (We are saying the same thing PK).   That means we need to give people a reason then to invest in IO's that are at the same level, so it's not just as simple as make DO's into IO's, because then we need to change IO's as well...

 

What if we just extend the range of both TO's and DO's and expand their drops...

 

Currently TO/DO/SO's can be slotted across a 7 lvl spread (3 below, 3 above)...What if TO's when to an 11 lvl spread (5 down/above) and DO's a 9 lvl spread (4 down/above), and we make TO's/DO's more accessible in game so you don't feel that you are having to scrape together 2 inf to just afford a few TO's when you are lvl 5...

 

 

[_NOPE_]

I'm not suggesting any change, I was trying to guess what Jimmy was saying. I personally don't see the need for a change. I always used TOs and merged them to slow expiration, and never saw a problem with it. 

[Oubliette_Red]

4 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

Truthfully... Even if TOs/DOs were as strong as SOs/IOs... I STILL would never slot them. They stop working after 5 levels at most. That's like an hour of play--assuming you're not DfBing to powerlevel, because if you are it's even less time.

 

It's not worth spending the influence. No matter how good they are, I wouldn't use them, ever.

 

3 hours ago, Jimmy said:

In my view this is the key issue, not that TOs/DOs are weak to begin with.

 

 

Another thing regarding TOs, they're really meant to train you in slotting enhancements. Something that many veteran players don't need training on. While the number of players that are completely new to CoH:H is likely small compared to returnees, TOs still have value to them with regards to the introduction of slotting powers.

[Jeuraud]

5 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

Truthfully... Even if TOs/DOs were as strong as SOs/IOs... I STILL would never slot them. They stop working after 5 levels at most. That's like an hour of play--assuming you're not DfBing to powerlevel, because if you are it's even less time.

 

It's not worth spending the influence. No matter how good they are, I wouldn't use them, ever.

This is not early CoH, Inf is easily made with the AH.

 

As far as out leveling, sure at the start, but you are not going to be making 5 levels in an hour once you get to level 6, not if you run Solo. The MOBs make a major power jump, and your Acc has dropped down to 86% so your missing more often against tougher MOBs... that's 86% against +0s, and you start seeing more +1s in Missions now. I just finished a level 11 Paper Mission, that had a +1 Named Lt, with 2 groups of 3 +1 Minions around them. This was running Solo at +0.

Streatsweaping becomes more difficult from 6 on, because your going to need to leave the Starter area, and you are going to start seeing bosses in groups. Even an Yellow Boss will hurt you, a Orange will hurt you bad with the good possibility of faceplanting (Especially if they are hiding around the corner.), Red/Purple will faceplant you.

Of course the above is based upon you Soloing, if you group none of it matters.

 

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

In my view this is the key issue, not that TOs/DOs are weak to begin with.

So what your saying is, is it worth your energy and time... I can understand that. It depends on whether you think Solo play is important or not.

 

I'm thinking now that dropping DOs altogether, and raising TOs to the DO percentage would be a better answer.  This would make it easier to keep your Es current as you level, and would be easily affordable, even for a NewB. I would still like to see SOs drop for all Missions as a completion reward.

 

Also I would not change IOs at all.

 

Edited August 11, 2019 by Jeuraud

[Megajoule]

Anecdata and opinion follows:

 

There comes a point, IMO, when the game has changed significantly enough from how it was when the original decisions were made that it is worth looking at them again.  I'm not usually one to suggest taking stuff out of (any) game, at least not without something to replace it... but on the other hand, I've not slotted TOs since my very first characters back in the '00s.  They're just not worth it, especially when you consider the expiration issue.  DOs are barely worth it, and only if you're not PLing to 20/22 by one of the mechanisms that were introduced after launch (and now the 2xp option here). 

 

Now, to balance comment: this is coming from someone who still slots characters with SOs.  And buys new ones every five levels, financing the leveling character(s) with inf drops from 50s.  Why?  Because That's How I'm Used To Doing It, and SO-level bonuses are worth it to me, and SOs were/are more readily acquired (on live, at least) than full sets of IOs.  It could well be that the meta has changed again while I wasn't looking, and an IO build now involves less faffing about than just visiting the origin vendor every five levels with a shopping list of (X) damage, (Y) acc, etc etc.  (The tradeoff, I suppose, is "SOs mean more effort but less thinking.")

 

Anyway.  If you were to get rid of TOs and even DOs, I literally wouldn't notice, except I wouldn't have to sell my drops.  If you were to do something different with them?  Maybe I'd actually use them.  Or not. *shrug*

 

It's kind of like pennies.  I'd miss them, maybe, if they were to go away... but I haven't actually used them in years, and they're arguably far more bother than they're worth these days.

Edited August 11, 2019 by Megajoule

[Leogunner]

5 hours ago, kelly Rocket said:

Truthfully... Even if TOs/DOs were as strong as SOs/IOs... I STILL would never slot them. They stop working after 5 levels at most. That's like an hour of play--assuming you're not DfBing to powerlevel, because if you are it's even less time.

 

It's not worth spending the influence. No matter how good they are, I wouldn't use them, ever.

 

 

Why not broaden the level they are usable?  Like rather than being +/- 3, make them +/- 6.  What I mean by that is, the range that the enhancement is green is +2 to +6 (so you could slot a lvl 16 TO/DO at level 10 instead of being limited to enhancements below lvl 14); the enhancement would turn white at -1 to +1 and enhancements -2 to -5 levels would be yellow.  It basically gives you room to use the enhancements and drops rather than them being already in obsolete status (yellow) when they drop.  You shouldn't be fighting things that low anyway but it's not uncommon, in the early game, to level twice in the same instance only for the drops you get to have little or no use.

 

As for me, I tend to buy Acc TOs in occasions I feel frustrated with hit chance and just fill my attacks with Acc.  By DO level, I only buy if I feel I've hit a wall and can't keep END or die too fast or can't hit my targets, etc.  I tend to wait until lvl 22 before I invest in enhancements and those are lvl 25 IOs.  If anything is less useful to me, it's SOs.  I just don't see a reason to buy them, I only use them if I get them as a drop and I just happen to have an empty slot because I got new powers/slots.

 

I think TO/DO work if you don't keep the mentality of regular sloting conventions.  It's meant to cover a weakness, not complete a build.  If you're running out of END, slot all Endredux.  If you miss too often, slot all Acc and it's compounded when you don't have many slots.

 

This is coming from a player who has the most fun in the game around lvl 10-38.  There is definitely a feeling of progress from one stage to the next.