Focused Feedback: Devices, Stealth and Misc Power changes

[Replacement]

Just going to toss this out there:

Mass Effect 2 and 3 took a shortcut where they said "our invisible person is so sneaky and quick you didn't see them get over there" with moves that are mechanically teleports, but thematically fast/undetected movement (the rogue character with a sword in 2, and the ME3 multiplayer character based on her).

[plainguy]

On 8/14/2019 at 12:44 AM, Rambolazer said:

Currently experiencing issues with gun drone...

This power allows you to summon stackable gun drones when you have enough recharge. Latest update on beta seem to have removed the ability to do this without mention of it. Whenever I summon a new gun drone it destroys the old one. Additionally, damage procs do not seem to be working with it anymore. I've always used the chance for fire damage here and it no longer seems to proc,

WTF 

 

I hope its only in BETA 

[plainguy]

On 8/12/2019 at 11:49 AM, Bossk_Hogg said:

I'm really hoping the Devices changes proliferate to Traps. If not, can you explain the rationale?

 

Is anything else in store for this? While the set can do some crazy stuff solo, its team performance is at the low end for a support set IMO. 

I agree honestly. They are not different. 

[Eclipse.]

From a PVP perspective:

The changes to encourage taking Invisibility instead of Stealth make it so that it is impossible to see stalkers by yourself, on matter how much you stack +perception, before considering +stealth IOs in travel powers.

Hide + Invis gives  1111 stealth, Tactics gives 430 perception (at most), other powers give 300 (targeting drone for example), and rectified reticle gives 100.
1111 - 432 - 300 -100 = 279 stealth left.

Stealth itself gives 389 stealth. So, if you fully spec for perception they still have a solid stealth.
If they have a travel set +stealth io, that's another 300 stealth, for a total of +579 over maximum possible solo perception. Which is closer to Invis levels than stealth levels.

at +579 left, you'd need 2 more characters with tactics to be able to see an invis+hide+stealthIO stalker, assuming you have tactics AND another +perception power in your pools.

 

---

It effects other power sets as well such as dark miasma and storm summoning being able to best all perception modifiers w/o them taking a +stealth io in their powers. This wasn't true before (albeit barely).

Edited August 16, 2019 by Eclipse.
noted how many stacks of tactics you would need.

[csr]

On 8/12/2019 at 7:23 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

 

Superior Invisibility should have a much stronger stealth than Invisibility, at a lower end cost, and should retain some defense while in combat. It will cost more endurance than just Stealth.

I think Superior Invisibility should be clearly better than either Stealth or Invisibility, not just the inferior of those two powers (Invisibility).  What's the rule of thumb on APP powers?  75% as good as set powers or some such?  If SI's defense is comparable to Stealth's (they both provide 2.25%+2.25% suppressing on my beta test Controller), then it's costing more endurance to provide 200' stealth instead of 35'.  That seems pretty massive, but in practice it means little.  Stealth plus an IO gives 65'.  Which means the only things that would see someone with that combo but not someone with SI are Turrets, GMs and Snipers.  That's pretty mediocre, especially given that the set with SI also has a 60' team stealth power that isn't an exclusive toggle.

 

I'll reiterate the desire to see SI be a non-exclusive toggle that can be used with Controller secondary powers such as Shadow Fall and Steamy Mist or to provide some sort of movement buff.

[Demon Shell]

I'm 100% behind Invisibility becoming a travel power, provided it is treated like one and available at the same level when SS/SJ/TP/Fly are, without a previous power pick.

 

The Infiltrate mode also sounds rad.

[Errants]

2 hours ago, Eclipse. said:

From a PVP perspective:
The changes to encourage taking Invisibility instead of Stealth make it so that it is impossible to see stalkers by yourself, on matter how much you stack +perception, before considering +stealth IOs in travel powers.
Hide + Invis gives  1111 stealth, Tactics gives 430 perception (at most), other powers give 300 (targeting drone for example), and rectified reticle gives 100.
1111 - 432 - 300 -100 = 279 stealth left.
Stealth itself gives 389 stealth. So, if you fully spec for perception they still have a solid stealth.
If they have a travel set +stealth io, that's another 300 stealth, for a total of +579 over maximum possible solo perception. Which is closer to Invis levels than stealth levels.
at +579 left, you'd need 2 more characters with tactics to be able to see an invis+hide+stealthIO stalker, assuming you have tactics AND another +perception power in your pools.

---
It effects other power sets as well such as dark miasma and storm summoning being able to best all perception modifiers w/o them taking a +stealth io in their powers. This wasn't true before (albeit barely).

A valid point - However, I don't see how it couldn't be solved by the continued monkey fucking of powers by PvP 2.0.

 

Don't shy from these changes in PvE, and just ensure that the power works differently enough (like everything else in PvP) in a PvP environment that it doesn't provide a hard counter to +Perception on a toon. E.g. Ensure that whatever changes go through for useability/desireability/balance in PvE don't affect the PvP environment.

[Rambolazer]

On 8/11/2019 at 12:48 PM, Leandro said:

Powers - Devices

• Changed Web Grenade to Toxic Web Grenade, now deals scale 1 toxic DoT and can be slotted for damage
• Taser: Recharge reduced from 20 to 10 seconds, duration reduced from scale 10 to scale 5, damage increased from 0.25 to 1.96 (same damage as Energy Punch)
• Time Bomb:  Animation is now 2.77 seconds, interrupt time removed, countdown reduced to 5 seconds, defiance values reduced to match (this only applies to this set, not to the Traps support set versions.)
• Trip Mine:  Interrupt removed. Cast time is now 2.77 seconds. Recharge increased to 30 seconds.
• Targeting Drone now gives your first attack from out of combat a Built-Up effect (80% damage) and continues to provide a 20% damage buff while in combat.

 

5 hours ago, plainguy said:

On 8/12/2019 at 10:49 AM, Bossk_Hogg said:

I'm really hoping the Devices changes proliferate to Traps. If not, can you explain the rationale?

 

Is anything else in store for this? While the set can do some crazy stuff solo, its team performance is at the low end for a support set IMO. 

I agree honestly. They are not different. 

I agree that trip mine and time bomb updates need to be added to traps. These are literally identical powers.

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, Rambolazer said:

I agree that trip mine and time bomb updates need to be added to traps. These are literally identical powers.

The powers are (currently) identical, yes, but they exist in different contexts. In Devices, they're in a set that's expected to provide damage, among other things, so the changes to make them better attacks make sense. However, in Traps they're part of a Buff/Debuff set, so making them better for attacking isn't necessarily the best option. I'm not saying they shouldn't be changed (they probably should), but it makes more sense to try to come up with a change that will make them better at the things you expect out of a Buff/Debuff set.

[Captain Powerhouse]

Vanden hit the nail right on the head.

 

there is nothing on the board at the moment for buff sets, but this has been discussed in the past. Ideally: any changes to improve Time Bomb and Trip Mine on the Traps sets would be oriented towards the goal of buff/debuff. 

 

Cottage rule and all that, but damage and usability may be adjusted in ways that allow for additional aspects being added that actually help the sets do their jobs.

[Maiven]

6 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Vanden hit the nail right on the head.

 

there is nothing on the board at the moment for buff sets, but this has been discussed in the past. Ideally: any changes to improve Time Bomb and Trip Mine on the Traps sets would be oriented towards the goal of buff/debuff. 

 

Cottage rule and all that, but damage and usability may be adjusted in ways that allow for additional aspects being added that actually help the sets do their jobs.

 

Been thinking about this a bit the last couple of days. I don't know if this is quite where this should be said, and I didn't see if anyone else has suggested anything along these lines, but:

 

For Time Bomb, reworking it to function something like the Omega Maneuver from Crab Spiders could be very good. Have the summoned object put out a taunt pulse to draw in mobs in an area, giving the power a form of soft control even before it ever does damage. Possibly include a long duration debuff to -Range both to help draw them into the 'bombs' area and as a potent combat buff for ranged combatants like blasters against the surviving mobs that can no longer reach them at long ranges. Rather than a lengthly countdown, let the 'timer' be a factor of how long it takes attracted mobs to kill the object, and let the explosion occur on death, issuing whatever other effects it needs to issue.

(For bonus points: could a pet mob be engineered to use the doppleganger mob type/effect and a bit of translucency VFX to rework this into an explosive Holo-drone of the user or a random teammate or somesuch?)

 

For trip mine...I'm less fond of changing this much, since what it does is already a bit unique and an occasionally entertaining counter to ambush waves. But if it needs more control functionality, you could make it a sticky bomb that attaches itself to it's target, affecting them with, say, a fear aura that affects themselves and any other nearby mobs exposed to the impending blast. Possibly a mild confuse/taunt pulse as affected mobs in-fight to escape or kill the trapped enemy before they go off? Imagining it kind of working like the gnome toss debuff from redcaps. The tripmine expends itself and applies a complex debuff to it's victim that does a couple different things before expiring, or like the Mastermind effect of being able to bomb from their pets, but expanded to allow them to glue dangerous implements to enemies.

 

Again, all leaning in on lightweight area soft control (emphasizing things like 'chance for mag 1/mag 2' effects for disrupting trash/chafe without directly doing as much to harder targets) which should be consonant with both Blasters and Support AT functionality, without necessarily removing all damage throughput from either toolkit. Obviously, there are limits to how much utility should belong to any given power. But these are both late-set tools everywhere they exist, and have the limitation of having to be placed at the user's location, requiring the user to either enter melee to ensure that they are proximate to targets, which exposes them to more danger as ranged ATs, or to place them beforehand and try to lure enemies in on the pull and hope they don't get wasted tripping single targets.

 

Anyway! Just some thoughts on other ways they might be reworked to make them less awkward and more functional while still being essentially what they are.

[Thezanman]

20 minutes ago, Maiven said:

For Time Bomb, reworking it to function something like the Omega Maneuver from Crab Spiders could be very good. Have the summoned object put out a taunt pulse to draw in mobs in an area, giving the power a form of soft control even before it ever does damage. Possibly include a long duration debuff to -Range both to help draw them into the 'bombs' area and as a potent combat buff for ranged combatants like blasters against the surviving mobs that can no longer reach them at long ranges. Rather than a lengthly countdown, let the 'timer' be a factor of how long it takes attracted mobs to kill the object, and let the explosion occur on death, issuing whatever other effects it needs to issue.

(For bonus points: could a pet mob be engineered to use the doppleganger mob type/effect and a bit of translucency VFX to rework this into an explosive Holo-drone of the user or a random teammate or somesuch?)

I like the idea, but requiring enemies to kill the bomb probably wouldn't work very well. That means that if there's a tanker/brute taunting enemies more strongly, or a controller/dominator stunning or holding the enemies, you wouldn't actually be able to do damage with the power. Making it a relatively short countdown like Omega Maneuver already is or like the 5 second Time Bomb currently in testing should work just fine.

[Leandro]

There is a new patch, so make sure to read the Patch Notes for August 17th, 2019.

[Thezanman]

Trip Mine is working as intended. Now that enhancements actually apply to it and Time Bomb, they both feel pretty good to use. Gun Drone stacking works as well.

[leese]

Loving that you're improving the PB VFX. While you're at it, can we get Combat Flight's proper animation back?

 

Pretty much entirely sure it was using the Hover animation at shutdown, but it's using the Fly animation here.

[Replacement]

9 minutes ago, leese said:

Loving that you're improving the PB VFX. While you're at it, can we get Combat Flight's proper animation back?

 

Pretty much entirely sure it was using the Hover animation at shutdown, but it's using the Fly animation here.

They're separate?  I was under the impression it was choosing animation based on current velocity (I thought fly was identical to hover until you accelerate to a high enough speed to hand-off to the flight animations).  

I'm probably wrong...

Edited August 17, 2019 by Replacement

[Thezanman]

3 hours ago, Replacement said:

They're separate?  I was under the impression it was choosing animation based on current velocity (I thought fly was identical to hover until you accelerate to a high enough speed to hand-off to the flight animations).  

I'm probably wrong...

They are separate.

[csr]

On 8/16/2019 at 11:59 AM, Eclipse. said:

From a PVP perspective:

The changes to encourage taking Invisibility instead of Stealth make it so that it is impossible to see stalkers by yourself, on matter how much you stack +perception, before considering +stealth IOs in travel powers.

Hide + Invis gives  1111 stealth, Tactics gives 430 perception (at most), other powers give 300 (targeting drone for example), and rectified reticle gives 100.
1111 - 432 - 300 -100 = 279 stealth left.

I thought there was a base 500' PER range for players.  Your calculation assume 0 base PER for characters.  That can't be right, can it?

[Chaos Ex Machina]

On 8/13/2019 at 1:26 PM, Thezanman said:

It could be changed to Electrified Web Grenade and do energy damage. I don't really see the problem either way though. 

I prefer this idea!

[Eclipse.]

4 hours ago, csr said:

I thought there was a base 500' PER range for players.  Your calculation assume 0 base PER for characters.  That can't be right, can it?

You're correct.

I also used the highest number possible for Tactics - which only defenders and VEATs get - and combined it with a secondary skill that provides +perception as well, which AFAIK Defenders don't get, nor do any other classes [afaik] that get more than 242 perception from tactics.

The classes that actually get a secondary +perception power (brute, Scrapper, blaster) only get 242 perception from Tactics, not 432.  In a best-case scenario solo you can see the stalker from ~20' away, assuming the stalker doesn't have any stealth IOs and you went with a power-set that offers +perception. For melee classes this isn't TOO bad since they have several +perception powers (ice armor, dark armor, ninjitsu, super reflexes, and/or the Ancillary Body Mastery), for blasters you're locked to */devices/*.

 

So, in a best case scenario where you specked for it you can still get hit with the following skills without any opportunity to counter : Focus Burst, Impale, Throw Spines, boggle, Lightning Rod, Savage Leap, Serpent's Reach, consume, smoke flash, blinding powder, and Shield charge

In the case of Shield Charge + Lightning Rod, those won't break stealth, either, so both could be guaranteed crits.

---

Another important note is that the Perception bonus from tactics scales with level, the numbers I'm giving are only true in RV for perception, but the stealth numbers are the same regardless of level.

The GOOD news is there is a cap to stealth...and stalkers will hit it if they take the stealth IO, even w/o it they're already really close (at 1111/1143). The Perception cap is just slightly higher at 1153, unless that has been changed you should always at least have a chance to see them if you are one of the above mentioned classes. Brutes, Scrappers, and Tanks [?] I believe should be able to solo hit the Perception cap, with a select few defensive sets, ensuring they can always see stalkers once they're within 10',  enough to at least stop assassins strike if they're next to their allies.  */Device blasters can see a non-IO'd stalker from 20', most other blasters can not, and non will be able  to see an +stealth IO'd stalker. VEATS with 2x tactics have no issues with stalkers - VEATS also have a higher perception cap @ 1260, so they can see stalkers from 100'+ away. All other classes can not bypass hide+invis solo
 

On 8/16/2019 at 2:33 PM, Eran Rist said:

A valid point - However, I don't see how it couldn't be solved by the continued monkey fucking of powers by PvP 2.0.

 

Don't shy from these changes in PvE, and just ensure that the power works differently enough (like everything else in PvP) in a PvP environment that it doesn't provide a hard counter to +Perception on a toon. E.g. Ensure that whatever changes go through for useability/desireability/balance in PvE don't affect the PvP environment.

I agree with this. Which is specifically why I brought it up.

Even with these changes [in PvE] I feel invis is undertuned. SS + StealthIO gives 65 stealth, Invis alone gives 55. 
Once the Defense suppression is 100% for invis it seems like a strange choice over stealth - unless you just don't take the stealth IO and/or super speed.

Edited August 18, 2019 by Eclipse.

[MindOverMatter]

Now that Power Boost has been changed to Power Build Up for Doms, can these abilities be coded to accept ToHit Buff sets? Currently, Earth Assault’s version is not accepting sets. I am uncertain if that is by design or otherwise.

[Captain Powerhouse]

They did not become build-up, they became “Power Up”, basically the same as Gather Shadows (a damage/special booster.)

[Rambolazer]

19 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Vanden hit the nail right on the head.

 

there is nothing on the board at the moment for buff sets, but this has been discussed in the past. Ideally: any changes to improve Time Bomb and Trip Mine on the Traps sets would be oriented towards the goal of buff/debuff. 

 

Cottage rule and all that, but damage and usability may be adjusted in ways that allow for additional aspects being added that actually help the sets do their jobs.

This is honestly more exciting anyhow and thank you. As amazing as it would be to have the same improvements being made to Devices apply to traps, I do think they should have their own flavor and not be identical. Thanks for the update and ya'll keep rocking!

[Rambolazer]

The Damage Buff from targeting drone seems to be bugged. It keeps jumping all over the place bouncing between 80 and 140 and 160% damage increase while idle. It applies the different damage increase buff numbers for a second and then changes repeatedly. 

 

Same thing with the Tohit portion.

 

Really looking forward to this buff for devices! 

Edited August 18, 2019 by Rambolazer

[Bionic_Flea]

5 hours ago, Rambolazer said:

The Damage Buff from targeting drone seems to be bugged. It keeps jumping all over the place bouncing between 80 and 140 and 160% damage increase while idle. It applies the different damage increase buff numbers for a second and then changes repeatedly. 

 

Same thing with the Tohit portion.

 

Really looking forward to this buff for devices! 

Just out of curiosity, did you slot a Gaussian proc in your gun drone?

Edited August 18, 2019 by Bionic_Flea