Pylon Damage Thread

[Sir Myshkin]

6 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Woof...Blizzard is not going to do good with Double-Hit...if it's even working.

Actually I wasn't really surprised by Blizzard, it was the fact that everything else, without question, was double hitting. I just don't remember seeing it that consistent on every single power, no matter what. Like... if I could share the video to show you, it it every single attack, every single time. I did a re-run with another character just now and watched through the log a bit more carefully, and it's there, scrolling through I wasn't seeing a missed double up unless the attack missed (obviously).

 

10 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Punch:  scale = 1.0,  damage = 52.83

Haymaker:  scale = 1.64,  damage = 86.64

Knockout Blow:  scale = 3.56,  damage = 188.07

Foot Stomp:  scale = 1.42,  damage = 75.02

So this is what Mid's shows, and I was under the impression that the current patching was corrected for Tanker, and if I misunderstood that (or it did not accurately get executed) than I apologize:

Punch: 44.49

Haymaker: 72.96

KO Blow: 158.4

Foot Stomp: 63.17

 

Went in-game and validated the powers are what you have posted, so Mid's is still wrong.

 

32 minutes ago, Bopper said:

But if they have a Damage aura, then probably not.

I did run another test with a Scrapper that has a combination of abilities more matching Super Strength's chain and including an outside blast. Since test was long-since wiped from Tanker testing, I'm not keen on spending the hour to rebuild a ground-up Tanker for a six minute test.

 

Rad/DA/Soul Scrapper, three runs each T4 (Degen Radial, Ageless Core, Musculature Core), Hybrid Core and Assault swapped, both on:

Chain of Radioactive Smash > Radiation Siphon > RSmash > Moonbeam > Devastating Blow

 

Assault Core:

2:40 <--Missed a LOT with Devastating Blow

2:05

2:19

 

Assault Radial:

2:37

2:29

2:44

 

Granted this is a small sample set, but it's also one of the widest variances in recollection from worst to best time. Very well a case of Death Shroud lifting a lot of extra weight unexpectedly in a miss-heavy 2:40 with that toggle popping off 40+ damage ticks. A Scrapper (and a Stalker, realistically) is probably the best worst scenario of the offset of Radial and Core just for Criticals alone.

 

I have one semi-incomplete Tanker I might go run a couple shots at just for the curiosity of it, he has a terrible attack chain so it'd be interesting to see what he can do either way.

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

so Mid's is still wrong.

ugh...it's like it never ends.

 

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

Very well a case of Death Shroud lifting a lot of extra weight unexpectedly in a miss-heavy 2:40 with that toggle popping off 40+ damage ticks

It's be interesting to see the test without Death Shroud on...in fact, why haven't I tested without Mud Pots on? SMH, alright, I would like to see what happens when I do that. As for other reasons why Core > Radial on a scrapper is crits. Not sure how often you get crits, but the global damage will boost that whereas the double hit only will proc off the casting of the power, not the special effects that may also trigger.

 

Alright, give me 20 minutes, I'll do a few runs each for my build without Mud Pots on. Will be interesting to see.

 

Update: Ran 3 tests for Core and 3 tests for Radial, with no Mud Pots.

Core:

Run 1: 3:47

Run 2: 3:53

Run 3: 3:54

 

Radial:

Run 1: 3:44  (got KB'd...forgot to have Rooted toggled)

Run 2: 3:10

Run 3: 3:14

Edited June 26, 2020 by Bopper

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Sir Myshkin said:

it was the fact that everything else, without question, was double hitting

I didn't mean to overlook this, i just didn't have time to look into tonight. But I have my combat logs saved, I'll take a look at the double-hit rates soon to see if I'm also getting 100% or if it's more like 90%.

[marcussmythe]

So.. what seems to be happening is core is more beneficial to the degree you have base damage attacks (for it to buff), crits (to multiply that buff) a damage aura (to trigger additional stacks of the buff), or a fast animating attack chain (to trigger additional stacks if the buff).

 

To the degree these conditions do not apply, the scale slides more and more to radial.

 

And we dont have a super clear picture on where this ‘flip’ occurs - but it looks like its somewhere between ‘scrapper with auras and tank without’

 

Does that seem reasonable as a first takeaway?

[Bionic_Flea]

Sort of, but it's also that the PPM formula for radial makes it horrible for AoEs and Auras in general, especially when going after a single target like a pylon or AV.  I expect that it would do better in high critter saturation where you have a chance to hit many targets with radial on AoEs/Auras.  So radial might be better for some heavy AoE characters if attacking large crowds, and definitely if you are at the damage cap, as once you get there Hybrid Core's +dam does nothing but Radial will still add its proc damage.

[marcussmythe]

Right - Radial wont do much extra damage on an AOE/Aura, (low damage power, low chance of proc).  However, the Core proc on an aoe or aura, even if low probability, has a much higher impact on damage out - because even a single proc on a DOT Aura will buff the follow up chain of attacks.

 

 

[Mask]

Spider

No Lore 58 secs best run

Lore 31 secs best run

[Tsuko]

On 6/26/2020 at 5:05 PM, Bionic_Flea said:

Sort of, but it's also that the PPM formula for radial makes it horrible for AoEs and Auras in general, especially when going after a single target like a pylon or AV.  I expect that it would do better in high critter saturation where you have a chance to hit many targets with radial on AoEs/Auras.  So radial might be better for some heavy AoE characters if attacking large crowds, and definitely if you are at the damage cap, as once you get there Hybrid Core's +dam does nothing but Radial will still add its proc damage.

i test and veritfy it everyday, on Brute Fire farmers, Radial is allmost instant at his Max buff.

[Bierfuizl]

On 6/29/2020 at 4:23 AM, Mask said:

Spider

No Lore 58 secs best run

Lore 31 secs best run

Mace?

 

[Werner]

Dark Armor/Martial Arts Tanker

 

Eagles Claw -> Storm Kick -> Crippling Axe Kick -> Storm Kick

 

T4 Assault Core
T4 Reactive Radial
T4 Cardiac Core
no Ageless
no Lore

 

5:15 5:54 5:38 5:44 
5:34 5:31 5:51 5:41

 

2708 total seconds
338.5 average seconds
241 DPS

 

Spoiler

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.7.2.10
https://github.com/Crytilis/mids-reborn-hero-designer

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Magic Tanker
Primary Power Set: Dark Armor
Secondary Power Set: Martial Arts
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Energy Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Death Shroud -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(3), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(5), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(5), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(7)
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx/Acc/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg(7)
Level 2: Storm Kick -- SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg(A), SprGntFis-Dmg/Rchg(9), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(11), SprGntFis-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(11), SprGntFis-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprGntFis-Rchg/+Absorb(13)
Level 4: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Rct-ResDam%(19), Ksm-ToHit+(19), BlsoftheZ-ResKB(21), WntGif-ResSlow(21)
Level 6: Dark Embrace -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(23), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(23), UnbGrd-Max HP%(25)
Level 8: Dark Regeneration -- FuroftheG-Acc/End/Rech(A), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg(25), FuroftheG-Acc/Dmg/End/Rech(27), TchoftheN-Heal(27), TchoftheN-Acc/EndRdx/Heal/HP/Regen(29), ThfofEss-+End%(29)
Level 10: Obsidian Shield -- StdPrt-ResKB(A)
Level 12: Murky Cloud -- GldArm-End/Res(A), GldArm-RechRes(31), GldArm-RechEnd(31), GldArm-Res/Rech/End(31), GldArm-ResDam(33), GldArm-3defTpProc(33)
Level 14: Cloak of Darkness -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(33), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(34), ShlWal-Def(34), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(34)
Level 16: Boxing -- SprBlsCol-Dmg/EndRdx(A), SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(36)
Level 18: Tough -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A)
Level 20: Dragon's Tail -- Arm-Dmg(A), Arm-Dmg/Rchg(36), Arm-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(36), Arm-Acc/Rchg(37), Arm-Dmg/EndRdx(37), Arm-Dam%(37)
Level 22: Warrior's Provocation -- PrfZng-Taunt/Rchg/Rng(A)
Level 24: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(39), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(39), ShlWal-Def(40)
Level 26: Oppressive Gloom -- HO:Endo(A)
Level 28: Focus Chi -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(40), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(40), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(42), GssSynFr--Build%(42)
Level 30: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), ShlWal-Def(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx(43), ShlWal-Def/Rchg(43), ShlWal-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 32: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45)
Level 35: Crippling Axe Kick -- Hct-Dmg/EndRdx(A), Hct-Acc/Rchg(45), Hct-Dmg(46), Hct-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(46), Hct-Dam%(46), AchHee-ResDeb%(48)
Level 38: Eagles Claw -- SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg(A), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(48), SprMghoft-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(50), SprMghoft-Rchg/Res%(50), TchofDth-Dam%(50)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 44: Physical Perfection -- PrfShf-End%(A)
Level 47: Focused Accuracy -- HO:Cyto(A)
Level 49: Assault -- EndRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- SprBlsCol-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(A), SprBlsCol-Rchg/HoldProc(9)
Level 1: Gauntlet 
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Clr-Stlth(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Health -- Pnc-Heal/+End(A), Mrc-Rcvry+(15), Prv-Absorb%(15), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(17)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- PrfShf-EndMod(A), PrfShf-End%(17)
Level 0: Freedom Phalanx Reserve 
Level 0: Portal Jockey 
Level 0: Task Force Commander 
Level 0: The Atlas Medallion 
Level 50: Assault Core Embodiment 
Level 50: Void Radial Final Judgement 
Level 50: Cardiac Core Paragon 
Level 50: Barrier Core Epiphany 
Level 50: Reactive Radial Flawless Interface 
------------

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[Underfyre]

On 5/23/2020 at 9:38 PM, Bopper said:

I don't know if anyone cares about this kind of stuff, but I hate to use rounded numbers in my calculations and the fact we're using 102.26 HP/sec as regen has always bugged me slightly. No complaints on the OP, the formula is great, but I just like exact numbers. So if anyone is interested, I wanted to share two of my formulas for use on Pylon times. One is a simplified version of the formula we use now for calculating the DPS when given the Time, and the other is an inverse formula used for calculating the Time when given the DPS.

 

New Pylon Formulas

 

HP = 30677.15

Resistance = 20%

Regen = 5% of HP every 15 seconds

 

DPS = (HP + Time*Regen) / Time / (1 - Resistance)          *Original Form

DPS = ( HP + Time*HP/300) / Time / (1 - Resistance)          *Plug in Regen in terms of HP

 

DPS = HP * ( 1 / Time + 1 / 300 ) / (1 - Resistance)             *Simplified Form for New Formula

Time = HP / [ DPS * (1 - Resistance) - HP / 300 ]                *Inverse formula, for finding out the time to kill given the DPS

 

 

Plugging in the Pylon numbers:

 

DPS = 30677.15 * ( 1 / Time + 1 / 300 ) / 0.8

Time = 30677.15 / ( DPS * 0.8 - 30677.15 / 300 )

 

 

Example:

Time = 180 seconds

DPS = 30677.15 * (1/180 + 1/300) / 0.8 = 340.8572 damage per second

 

DPS = 340 damage per second

Time = 30677.15 / ( 340 * 0.8 - 30677.15 / 300 ) = 180.727 seconds

My wife knows way more about math than I do, but I wanted to see what affect -regen had on DPS, so I asked her to algebra for me to also solve for T. This new equation doesn't give me the opportunity to affect regen. Or does it? I dunno.

 

Anyway.

 

Using the old equation T = HP / ( DPS * (1-Resistance) - Regen)

 

Now that I have DPS and Regen on the same side of the equation I can solve for the time it would take to kill at my "current" DPS. Diamagnetic reduces regen by 10.23 * stack up to 4, so I can just reduce the regen by those amount (or 20% of those amounts?) to find my new time, and then plug that in to the old equation to find out exactly how much DPS diamagnetic and other -regen abilities are contributing to DPS.

[Bopper]

29 minutes ago, underfyre said:

My wife knows way more about math than I do, but I wanted to see what affect -regen had on DPS, so I asked her to algebra for me to also solve for T. This new equation doesn't give me the opportunity to affect regen. Or does it? I dunno.

 

Anyway.

 

Using the old equation T = HP / ( DPS * (1-Resistance) - Regen)

 

Now that I have DPS and Regen on the same side of the equation I can solve for the time it would take to kill at my "current" DPS. Diamagnetic reduces regen by 10.23 * stack up to 4, so I can just reduce the regen by those amount (or 20% of those amounts?) to find my new time, and then plug that in to the old equation to find out exactly how much DPS diamagnetic and other -regen abilities are contributing to DPS.

My formula bakes in the base regeneration. I could incorporate it so its easier to do what it is you're wanting to do. But the way I see it, I just count the slower regeneration as added DPS, much like resistance debuffs you apply would be treated as extra DPS.

 

Something to consider, the base regeneration is 5% of maxHP every 15s. It you reduce the regeneration, you would divide the 15s by (100%-regendebuff). So anything 100% or more would simply stop all regeneration.

 

However, the pylon has an 87% resistance to regeneration debuffs. So if you apply a 100% regen debuff, the pylon only takes 13%. So if you want to completely floor the regeneration of the Pylon, you would need to stack more than 769% regen debuffs.

 

If you'd like me to incorporate regen debuffs into my formula, I can. But given that the debuffs will oscillate between uptime and down time (typically), you won't be able to gage that. But if you're wanting to factor in the permanent regeneration debuff from Radiation Therapy, you could do that.

[Underfyre]

26 minutes ago, Bopper said:

My formula bakes in the base regeneration. I could incorporate it so its easier to do what it is you're wanting to do. But the way I see it, I just count the slower regeneration as added DPS, much like resistance debuffs you apply would be treated as extra DPS.

 

Something to consider, the base regeneration is 5% of maxHP every 15s. It you reduce the regeneration, you would divide the 15s by (100%-regendebuff). So anything 100% or more would simply stop all regeneration.

 

However, the pylon has an 87% resistance to regeneration debuffs. So if you apply a 100% regen debuff, the pylon only takes 13%. So if you want to completely floor the regeneration of the Pylon, you would need to stack more than 769% regen debuffs.

 

If you'd like me to incorporate regen debuffs into my formula, I can. But given that the debuffs will oscillate between uptime and down time (typically), you won't be able to gage that. But if you're wanting to factor in the permanent regeneration debuff from Radiation Therapy, you could do that.

Yeah, I don't know why I come around popping off about the wrong numbers when I take screen caps of the stuff and can directly observe the results. So it's really -1.33 per stack, 5.32 at max. Assuming you can maintain an average of 3 stacks it's 5 more DPS in most cases, which doesn't sound nearly as thrilling as using my wrong numbers.

[Bopper]

14 minutes ago, underfyre said:

Yeah, I don't know why I come around popping off about the wrong numbers when I take screen caps of the stuff and can directly observe the results. So it's really -1.33 per stack, 5.32 at max. Assuming you can maintain an average of 3 stacks it's 5 more DPS in most cases, which doesn't sound nearly as thrilling as using my wrong numbers.

For the pylon, the regeneration debuff is really weak because of the resistance debuff. Buf if you had the maxHP debuff, the pylon does resist that so its much more useful. The only think with maxHP, it caps at 1k -HP. So it takes 4 stacks (which is max stacks) to get the capped HP low enough to do the full -3.5% HP debuff

[marcussmythe]

Does it seem troublesome to anyone that the Regen Debuff Interface Proc basically doesnt?  Not on anything you would care about using it on.

 

They really should add a zero or two to that debuff amount

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, marcussmythe said:

Does it seem troublesome to anyone that the Regen Debuff Interface Proc basically doesnt?  Not on anything you would care about using it on.

 

They really should add a zero or two to that debuff amount

Its a common reason for not taking it. No DoT, and the benefits are useful mainly against the enemies that easily resist it. Reactive Radial tends to win out as it does the most damage with the least commonly resisted damage type, and the resistance debuff is always useful.

 

Reactive tends to work good on anything

Degenerative is good too with its smaller DoT and debuff

Paralytic is good as a debuff.

Other than that, the other interfaces don't interest me much.

 

As for Regen debuff, it's useful against AVs but heavily resisted. And normal enemies, the debuffs won't matter as most enemies will die before they get their first regen tick anyways. LTs, Bosses, and Elite Bosses have a base regeneration of 23 seconds. That's nothing to be scared of.

[marcussmythe]

28 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Its a common reason for not taking it. No DoT, and the benefits are useful mainly against the enemies that easily resist it. Reactive Radial tends to win out as it does the most damage with the least commonly resisted damage type, and the resistance debuff is always useful.

 

Reactive tends to work good on anything

Degenerative is good too with its smaller DoT and debuff

Paralytic is good as a debuff.

Other than that, the other interfaces don't interest me much.

 

As for Regen debuff, it's useful against AVs but heavily resisted. And normal enemies, the debuffs won't matter as most enemies will die before they get their first regen tick anyways. LTs, Bosses, and Elite Bosses have a base regeneration of 23 seconds. That's nothing to be scared of.

I have not found the Regen Debuff to have meaningful value against any target, as compared to just more damage or the max HP Debuff.

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, marcussmythe said:

I have not found the Regen Debuff to have meaningful value against any target, as compared to just more damage or the max HP Debuff.

Pretty much. The base regen of typical enemies (minions-EBs) is already large enough that the die before their regen matters. And the other enemies (GM/AV/Heroes) resist the debuff ~85%. So yeah... stacking 2.25% regen debuffs is probably not gonna be impressive.

[marcussmythe]

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

Pretty much. The base regen of typical enemies (minions-EBs) is already large enough that the die before their regen matters. And the other enemies (GM/AV/Heroes) resist the debuff ~85%. So yeah... stacking 2.25% regen debuffs is probably not gonna be impressive.

Thus my suggestion that that interface is probably missing a '0' on its debuff value.  Stacking 22.5% Regen Debuffs would give it a use case (GMs/AVs), but it would still live on a shelf otherwise.  

[Bopper]

Just now, marcussmythe said:

Thus my suggestion that that interface is probably missing a '0' on its debuff value.  Stacking 22.5% Regen Debuffs would give it a use case (GMs/AVs), but it would still live on a shelf otherwise.  

That would be REALLY powerful against an AV. Dropping an AVs regen from 100% down to 10% with just interface procs would be a bit much. You might be able to get a buff to 20%. That would cap at 80% against normal enemies, and 12% against lvl 50 AVs.

[nihilii]

7 hours ago, Bopper said:

That would be REALLY powerful against an AV. Dropping an AVs regen from 100% down to 10% with just interface procs would be a bit much.

Would it truly be too much? This would make the interface useful against AVs+, but still useless against bosses and below. Degen and Reactive are great against AVs, but they're also good against bosses, lieutenants and minions.

Debuffing Regen is also meaningless if there's already other sources of regen debuffing flooring regen, on teams and such. So the effectiveness of that interface is more conditional than, say, Reactive (which benefits from other sources of -res, if anything) or Degen (-maxHP is an unique debuff).

Ideally, the Regen debuff interface (incidentally, I find it funny we're all calling it that ITT, because it's so useless nobody intuitively remembers the name...) should probably be at least twice as efficient as Degen/Reactive against AVs to make up for being functionallypointless everywhere else.

I see T4 Degen adding ~30 to ~50 DPS on my toons, so the Regen debuff Interface hypothetically flooring lvl 50 AV ( = ~90 DPS) doesn't seem so out of line to me. Perhaps a little bit too strong but not by a factor of 5 and not even by a factor of 2.

Edited July 4, 2020 by nihilii

[Bopper]

11 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Would it truly be too much?

Yes it would. A player able to single handedly cause an AV to have their regeneration ticks go from a base of 15s to 150s because of a lone interface proc is too powerful.

 

It's true the regeneration debuff half of Diamagnetic is not particularly useful, but the To-Hit debuff is...atleast for standard enemies. So it does retain use, although it's one that is not nearly as strong as other options.

 

If there is a tweak worth pursuing, you could look to make a portion of the regen debuff unresistible. Of the 15% per stack it does now, you could make 5% unresistible while the other 10% remains as is. That would result is a cap (4 stacks) of 20% unresistible regeneration debuff plus 40% resistable regeneration debuff. Against an AV with 85% resistance, that would result in a total of 26% regeneration debuff. That's powerful without being over-powered.

Edited July 4, 2020 by Bopper

[nihilii]

1 hour ago, Bopper said:

Yes it would. A player able to single handedly cause an AV to have their regeneration ticks go from a base of 15s to 150s because of a lone interface proc is too powerful.

But why? You state it is too powerful but I'm not seeing your rationale supporting the statement.

 

Mine is laid out: Diamagnetic is useless (ok, I account for your correction - *offensively* useless) compared to Degen and Reactive against normal foes. Degen can account for up to ~+50 DPS against AVs. Why shouldn't Diamagnetic account for ~+90 DPS against AVs?

In comparison, a 26% regen debuff against a level 50 AV would be about ~+20 DPS. Why should Diamagnetic be less than half as potent as Degen against AVs, while also being offensively useless against bosses and below?

Only speaking for myself, I can say I wouldn't switch to Diamagnetic if it did 26% effective regen debuff against AVs. And I love solo AV hunting, probably more than 99% of the playerbase. If it were 50%, I'd think about it - but breaking even with Degen, and Degen remaining better on bosses, would likely make me stay with Degen. At 90% regen debuff, I would definitely go for it.

 

So maybe there's a right balance between 50% effective regen debuff and 90% effective regen debuff. Or maybe those numbers are completely personal and arbitrary - but again, given that I lean towards solo AV hunting, what of the efficiency for players with a more balanced playstyle?

I can accept my lack of consideration for tohit debuff (IMHO, useless, but YMMV) can be a factor that needs to be accounted for, but either way, I think "this is too powerful" needs to be qualified and hashed out in numbers.

Edited July 4, 2020 by nihilii

[Bopper]

46 minutes ago, nihilii said:

Mine is laid out: Diamagnetic is useless (ok, I account for your correction - *offensively* useless) compared to Degen and Reactive against normal foes. Degen can account for up to ~+50 DPS against AVs. Why shouldn't Diamagnetic account for ~+90 DPS against AVs

You are using the strongest giant killer interface proc as a baseline then nearly doubling that performance with your proposal. So we're going from one OP interface to a more OP interface?

 

Let's also recap the suggestion. 150% regen debuff per stack. That caps at 600% regeneration debuff. As far as I know, there's only one power in the game that does more than that, and we're going to give that to anybody that's level 50? 

 

Two other things you're not factoring in. Degenerative's other half is a DoT, so some of that 30-50 DPS you quoted earlier is coming from that, thus making the entire contributions (both halves) of the interface proc total that 30-50 DPS. The other part you haven't factored in is the fact Degenerative is a 75%/25% proc, whereas Diamagnetic is a 100%/50% proc.

 

So yes, it is OP to turn degenerative into a 20% stronger version of a Defender's Lingering Radiation.

[nihilii]

35 minutes ago, Bopper said:

You are using the strongest giant killer interface proc as a baseline then nearly doubling that performance with your proposal. So we're going from one OP interface to a more OP interface?

That's not my proposal. There is actually no proposal/suggestion at all. I'm reacting to your own dismissal of marcus' idea.

 

Maybe I'm expressing myself poorly, but I think you're reading something way more aggressive in my replies than I intended. I'm not claiming I have the right answer, I'm wondering aloud what is the right answer.

 

Quote

Let's also recap the suggestion. 150% regen debuff per stack. That caps at 600% regeneration debuff. As far as I know, there's only one power in the game that does more than that, and we're going to give that to anybody that's level 50?

IMHO, comparison of individual effects in a vacuum isn't as interesting as net effect ingame. Ergo interface vs interface matters more to me than interface vs existing -regen powers.

 

Arguably, you could make the case -regen could use a boost overall. The Defender-type perma -500% regen powers who tend to have strong additional effects tied to them are fine, but the -50% regen splattered here and there in many other powers are almost useless.

 

35 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Two other things you're not factoring in. Degenerative's other half is a DoT, so some of that 30-50 DPS you quoted earlier is coming from that, thus making the entire contributions (both halves) of the interface proc total that 30-50 DPS. The other part you haven't factored in is the fact Degenerative is a 75%/25% proc, whereas Diamagnetic is a 100%/50% proc.

I've acknowledged I don't care about the -tohit portion of Diamagnetic, and that I accepted your correction and amended my comparison to the offensive aspect of these interfaces.

 

The tohit portion is a limiting argument on how strong the contribution of Diag should be, but until we hash out in numbers how much that tohit should be valued as exactly, it cannot be used as a blank state to arbitrarily dismiss any figures as "too strong".

 

I don't understand where the 75/25 vs 100/50 fit in. If Degen gives me +~30-50 DPS with 75%/25%, it is the same to me as if a hypothetical Degen with lower values but 100%/50% gave me +~30-50 DPS. How we get there isn't as important as what we have once we're there.

 

35 minutes ago, Bopper said:

So yes, it is OP to turn degenerative into a 20% stronger version of a Defender's Lingering Radiation.

LR:

- AoE

- activates in 1.5s

- massive slow

 

Hypothetical turbo Diag:

- ST

- takes constant attacking to maintain

- tohit debuff

Can you really argue against my dismissal of tohit debuff even though I specifically reframe the debate on the offensive side of it, and then ignore the AoE + slow aspects of LR??

Sorry to insist, but I feel you're getting bogged down in seeing me *attacking* your point and us sparring to prove who's right when that's not really my goal. I'm musing, and if anything, I'm completely willing to rally to your point; I just want to see solid logic behind it, as to why these numbers and why not other numbers.

 

Would you switch your current Degen toons to Diag if your proposal of 26% effective regen debuff against AVs went through? If not, what would it take?

 

If yes, of course, that's all the answer needed. I'm also curious if anyone else reading this would make the switch as well.

Edit: I guess I'm coming at all of this from an angle of... We've all seen players, ingame and on the forums, even players who do decent challenge stuff like soloing highend TFs, swear by Diagnametic for soloing AVs, "for the -regen". There is a strong psychological effect to the game telling you X does Y, even if Y turns out functionally useless. As it is, Diagnametic is a trap. It would be nice to see it changed to something worth it. 26% effective regen debuff against AVs would at least make it worth *something*, and I'm certainly not complaining about that. But I wonder what it would take to make it competitive.

Edited July 4, 2020 by nihilii