Why is Savage better on stalker?

[thegee]

I have read multiple times that Savage melee is better on stalkers due to mechanics. What exactly is the mechanic that makes it better on a stalker rather than on a scrapper?

[Bloodofcaine]

This is the first I've heard of this. I'd like to know as well since i am currently playing a savage/nin scrapper

 

 

[Hjarki]

In general, "Better on Stalker" means one of two things:

• Stalkers receive a high dpa attack in the form of Assassinate. This often replaces a relatively low dpa single target attack, taking a set from mediocre single target damage to exceptional single target damage.
• Stalkers receive an ATO proc that rapidly recharges Build Up. While this is always useful, it's even more useful with sets that also use Build Up for some other purpose.

I suspect the second reason is what's at work here since Savage Melee also generates its resource from Build Up.

[thegee]

How does the Hemo ability work on the stalker?

[Haijinx]

Evidently its more front loaded on stalker thus better.

 

Stalkers get Buildup instead of blood fury, which is a definite plus.  

 

The ST attack that the assainate attack replaces though is savages best ST attack.

[DocMidknight]

I have a savage melee brute, scrapper and stalker all at 50 and all fully built. The stalker easily out performs the others. With hemorrhage hitting hard after rehiding thanks to my proc and with the build up proc kicking in I've been able to solo several AVs. While I'm sure I could do this on my brute and scrapper in time with a more substantial investment the stalker did it without purples or the superior version of the ATO sets

Edited August 24, 2019 by DocMidknight

[Lazarillo]

In a word: Hemorrhage.  I ran some pylon test-y stuff a couple months back and for reference:

 

Hemorrhage does lots of different things based on how much Blood Frenzy you've got and whether it lands a Hidden/Critical hit, so I tried it a few different ways.  The other "interesting" thing about Hemorrhage is that always does the same upfront damage and then appears to always register a Critical hit for the additional Frenzy-based damage (whether you have any to contribute to it or not).  It then deals 2 simultaneous DoTs, both of which scale up with additional stacks of Blood Frenzy.  If you do land a Critical Hit (or a Hidden one) the actual critical damage on the initial hit is lumped in with the faux-critical damage, but there's secret additional critical damage in the form of a third DoT that, like the other two, scales up.  It can get pretty wild!  Here's how the numbers came out:

 

Non-Hidden, No Blood Frenzy: 80.11 base portion, 33.75 "critical" portion, 244.5 damage over time.

Non-Hidden, Max Blood Frenzy: 80.11 base portion, 40.62 "critical" portion, 399.1 damage over time.

Hidden, No Blood Frenzy: 80.11 base portion, 80.11 "critical" portion, 667.56 damage over time.

Hidden, Max Blood Frenzy: 80.11 base portion, 80.11 "critical" portion, 996.89 damage over time.

 

And for fun, I added a Build-Up to that last one: 134.21 base portion, 134.21 "critical" portion, 1401.88 damage over time.

 

So, yeah, Hemorrhage is happy time.  It actually is better than AS from Hide, which really helps the fast-and-furious approach of the set.

 

That said, avoid Savage Leap on a stalker.  From the same playing around, I got up to 174-ish damage at best range, but from too far away, it appears it bugs out and does no damage, so it's a gamble, but on top of that, it breaks Hide, and has a 0% chance to deal Critical damage even when Hidden.  And point-blank it only does around 105, so it's not suited to Stalking.  If you want to leap in, grab Spring Attack instead.

[Frostweaver]

I don't get the savage leap hate, I LOVE leaping into a crew, getting 3 blood, and then unloading with rending flurry. Especially against groups like Malta, DE, and sky raiders, where if you don't start laying the smackdown on the group NOW, someone's gonna pop out a gun turret or something.

Sure, it's a lot more scrappery than most stalkers, but then, isn't the whole powerset more scrappery than most stalkers? You have THREE Aoe's in the set. You can still play games with placate crits and autocrits and buildup procs and the like. You just enjoy mixing it with the crowd a bit more.

And spring attacks is picky, short range, and with a horrible cooldown.

There's absolutely NOTHING wrong with savage leap, especially for engaging new groups and dealing with annoying architecture. It just doesn't quite fit into some people's playstyles. Get it, learn it, if you like it, great... if you don't, respec out. For fun, hit an enemy with moonbeam crit at medium range and then immediately jump into their face laying down some smackdaon followed by an AS crit. Quality entertainment that eats bosses AND their crew.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Frostweaver

[the mauler]

So what would I substitute for Savage Leap? As you can see I don't have a whole lot of room for anything else. Would I sub in Spring Attack instead. Would it change any of my other slotting? Im at level 22 now so I would like to have a plan in place so I know what sets to acquire if that will change. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Hero Plan by Mids' Reborn : Hero Designer 2.6.0.3
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Nightshredder: Level 50 Mutation Stalker
Primary Power Set: Savage Melee
Secondary Power Set: Invulnerability
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Body Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Savage Strike -- Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg(A), Mk'Bit-Dmg/EndRdx(3), Mk'Bit-Dmg/Rchg(11), Mk'Bit-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Mk'Bit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 1: Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(5)
Level 2: Shred -- Obl-Dmg(A), Obl-Acc/Rchg(3), Obl-Dmg/Rchg(11), Obl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(15), Obl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(45)
Level 4: Temp Invulnerability -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(5), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(9), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(13)
Level 6: Assassin's Frenzy -- SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprStlGl-Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(7), SprStlGl-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(13), SprStlGl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(19), SprStlGl-Rchg/Hide%(50)
Level 8: Resist Physical Damage -- RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctArm-ResDam/Rchg(9), RctArm-ResDam(17), RctArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(50)
Level 10: Dull Pain -- Prv-Heal(A), Prv-Heal/EndRdx(21), Prv-EndRdx/Rchg(21), Prv-Heal/Rchg(40), Prv-Heal/Rchg/EndRdx(40), Prv-Absorb%(40)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), Ksm-ToHit+(42), ShlWal-ResDam/Re TP(42)
Level 14: Super Jump -- BlsoftheZ-Travel/EndRdx(A)
Level 16: Unyielding -- StdPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), GldArm-3defTpProc(17), ImpArm-ResPsi(19)
Level 18: Rending Flurry -- Erd-Dmg(A), Erd-Dmg/Rchg(23), Erd-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(23), Erd-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 20: Environmental Resistance -- UnbGrd-ResDam(A), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx(25), UnbGrd-EndRdx/Rchg(25), UnbGrd-Rchg/ResDam(45), UnbGrd-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(46)
Level 22: Build Up -- GssSynFr--ToHit(A), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg(43), GssSynFr--ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(43), GssSynFr--Rchg/EndRdx(43), GssSynFr--ToHit/EndRdx(48), GssSynFr--Build%(48)
Level 24: Boxing -- Empty(A)
Level 26: Hemorrhage -- SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAssMar-Dmg/Rchg(27), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(27), SprAssMar-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprAssMar-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), SprAssMar-Rchg/Rchg Build Up(33)
Level 28: Reinforced -- Rct-Def(A), Rct-Def/EndRdx(29), Rct-EndRdx/Rchg(29), Rct-Def/Rchg(36), Rct-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(36), Rct-ResDam%(37)
Level 30: Tough -- ImpArm-ResPsi(A), ImpArm-ResDam(31), ImpArm-ResDam/EndRdx(31), ImpArm-ResDam/Rchg(31)
Level 32: Savage Leap -- SprAvl-Acc/Dmg(A), SprAvl-Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/Rchg(34), SprAvl-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(37), SprAvl-Rchg/KDProc(37)
Level 35: Tough Hide -- LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(A), LucoftheG-Def(36), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(46)
Level 38: Weave -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A), LucoftheG-Def(39), LucoftheG-Def/EndRdx(39), LucoftheG-Def/Rchg(39)
Level 41: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(42), RechRdx-I(48)
Level 44: Maneuvers -- LucoftheG-Def/Rchg+(A)
Level 47: Superior Conditioning -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 49: Physical Perfection -- Heal-I(A)
Level 1: Assassination 
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Dash -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Slide -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Quick -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Rush -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Prestige Power Surge -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 4: Ninja Run 
Level 2: Swift -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Health -- Mrc-Rcvry+(A), NmnCnv-Regen/Rcvry+(50)
Level 2: Hurdle -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A)
Level 1: Blood Frenzy 
Level 50: Agility Core Paragon 
------------

 

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Edited September 5, 2019 by the mauler

[Lazarillo]

2 hours ago, the mauler said:

Would I sub in Spring Attack instead. Would it change any of my other slotting?

That'd probably be what I'd do, yeah.  Spring uses the same Enhancement sets (PBAoE) so you wouldn't have to change anything.  Just drop Savage Leap and put Spring Attack there instead since you already have the prerequisites in your build.

[Haijinx]

Is there a way to make a bind range based? Since it sounds like leap would be good if you could always hit it at the right range.

[Lifeblood2112]

Back new to the game from playing a lot during live.  One glaring question or did I miss something new on stalkers?  No placate?!?

 

[Lazarillo]

1 hour ago, Lifeblood2112 said:

Back new to the game from playing a lot during live.  One glaring question or did I miss something new on stalkers?  No placate?!?

Not necessarily "no" Placate, but as a power, it's a lot less critical (no pun intended) than it used to be.  For one, the sped-up version of AS that comes when using it outside of Hide, and the Assassin's Focus mechanic (which you can read more about here) means Stalkers are a lot Scrapper-ier than they used to be.  Combine this with the fact that Homecoming has made the special Archetype-based Enhancements much easier to obtain than they were for the short time they were available in the legacy server days, and one of those gives all your attacks a chance to re-Hide you anyway, and the whole "one power with a semi-long Recharge and semi-long animation to put you back into Hide on command" is simply seen as less valuable.

 

I'm still fond of taking it, since builds on the whole tend to be more Enhancement slot thirsty than Power slot thirsty, and Placate is still situationally useful.  However new mechanics mean that it's not the must-take-immediately Power that it used to be.

[theDarkeOne]

Absolutely LOVE savage on my stalker! My brute not so much.

Yes Hemmorage from hide is ridiculous but my Savage/Shield is so much fun. . .

Build-up+Shield Charge+Fireball+Savage Leap (fully proc'd out is so much fun)+Slash+AF and finish with Rending Furry at 4 or 5 stacks and just about everything = DEAD.

Since hitting 40 started soloing at +4/8 with yellow inspirations, small purple, and an occasional heal and not much survives me.

Absolutely, one of the most fun toons I have built (and didn't cost me much since I stripped out my fire/ice Stalker which was nowhere near as fun)!

[Frosticus]

savage leap is hands down the best T9 melee attack if slotted properly.

[Haijinx]

8 hours ago, Frosticus said:

savage leap is hands down the best T9 melee attack if slotted properly.

I wonder if some people don't like it based on breaking hide, vs Electric not doing so.  

 

Combined with the range based thing.  Which Lightning Rod doesn't seem to do. 

[Frosticus]

55 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

I wonder if some people don't like it based on breaking hide, vs Electric not doing so.  

 

Combined with the range based thing.  Which Lightning Rod doesn't seem to do. 

Breaking hide is inconsequential because you  lead with an epic aoe and still get to the spawn as fast or faster than lightning rod. 

 

It does more damage than LR when procs are added because it procs like an aoe whereas LR procs like a psuedo pet. 

 

It is a way better movement power because it activates off off an enemy target rather than a location target. this means leaping to fliers or other hard to reach targets (ie council maps) is instantaneous. 

 

The range modifier on the damage is unfortunate at times, but it is rarely needed at point blank and if you do use it up close it still procs at 89% which means you still retain the majority of your damage. 

 

All of which is compounded by being able to use it 2x as often as LR. 

 

I think people just dont really know how to slot savage leap because the power is only so-so without procs. Whereas LR is super flashy and pretty good out of the box.

 

I mean earlier in this thread someone said to skip the power....

A 600+ damage (without buildup), near instant cast, 15ish sec cycle aoe. 

*450+ damage from point blank.

 

To each their own I suppose. 

 

[Lazarillo]

On 1/7/2020 at 12:20 AM, Haijinx said:

I wonder if some people don't like it based on breaking hide, vs Electric not doing so.  

It's not simply that it breaks Hide, it's that it breaks Hide while not giving the benefit normally associated with breaking Hide (that is, a Critical hit), and it's not like Stalkers need the gap-closer since they can just jump in normally while Hidden.

[VV]

So, not to throw a wrench into the works, but the Dominator version of Savage is actually the best due to Feral Charge (aka Savage Leap) has a base cooldown of only 10 seconds. Fully built out, it comes down under 3 seconds and it is inSANE. You don't think the time running from target to target is very much, until it becomes ZERO. Then you realize that on all other meleers, you spend half your days running across the battlefield. 

[Frosticus]

45 minutes ago, Lazarillo said:

It's not simply that it breaks Hide, it's that it breaks Hide while not giving the benefit normally associated with breaking Hide (that is, a Critical hit), and it's not like Stalkers need the gap-closer since they can just jump in normally while Hidden.

What do you guys open with? 

 

 

 

 

 

[Frosticus]

26 minutes ago, VV said:

So, not to throw a wrench into the works, but the Dominator version of Savage is actually the best due to Feral Charge (aka Savage Leap) has a base cooldown of only 10 seconds. Fully built out, it comes down under 3 seconds and it is inSANE. You don't think the time running from target to target is very much, until it becomes ZERO. Then you realize that on all other meleers, you spend half your days running across the battlefield. 

Feral is probably the most fun power in the game. 

savage leap is a close second due to one shotting entire groups, but you are absolutely right about how fast feral charge gets you around. 

 

These powers are game changing once you get the hang of them. 

[Seroster01]

1 hour ago, Lazarillo said:

It's not simply that it breaks Hide, it's that it breaks Hide while not giving the benefit normally associated with breaking Hide (that is, a Critical hit), and it's not like Stalkers need the gap-closer since they can just jump in normally while Hidden.

The larger benefit of a properly slotted proc-Leap is that it has an 89% chance for the 4 damage procs to go off, which by themselves add up to around 200-300 total damage of diverse types. It has the same chance to proc the PVP -res IO, & of course -res is very powerful in the modern game. A secondary benefit that isn't specifically a benefit of Leap is that the BU refresh IO is a flat 4/5% chance on hit from any power, so hitting a lot if mobs with Leap has a decently high chance to reset it. So with my end-game build I can cast it apprx. every 15 seconds for 200-300 proc damage, a -20% resistance buff for 10s, and whatever damage you get out of the normal Leap (seems about 100-200 + a dot?).

 

As far as the "scales with distance" shenanigans, I use Hover for combat movement & find that most of the time if I start flying up & back I can get enough distance to charge in for least 2 fury stacks, if not 3. Generally I try to do this when I'm casting an ability that has an animation that allows the character to move while casting. Most of the time this is BU, so that I can BU>AS & spend the resulting stack on Rending Flurry or Hemorrhage depending on what's needed. Shadow Meld & Ablative Carapace are the other 2 that get used most often. I'll give a disclaimer that I've devoted a moderate amount of build resources to movement boosts so that Hover isn't insufferably slow, so YMMV on whether this will work for you or not. 

 

At some point I'll have to link my build in one of these SM threads & see what other folks think of my slotting...

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Frosticus said:

What do you guys open with? 

 

 

 

 

 

On my Street Justice I usually jump into a group and open with Spinning Strike. 

 

I get a lot of crits .. but realistically if stuff is dead, its dead so if procced out Savage Leap does enough damage, what is the difference if you critted or not?

[Rikis]

On 8/22/2019 at 10:09 PM, thegee said:

I have read multiple times that Savage melee is better on stalkers due to mechanics. What exactly is the mechanic that makes it better on a stalker rather than on a scrapper?

Is there a melee set that is certifiable worst on Stalker than the other melee ATs?

[Without_Pause]

16 minutes ago, Rikis said:

Is there a melee set that is certifiable worst on Stalker than the other melee ATs?

I would argue ones which lose their AoE for AS.