Please revert the Rage change.

Back on live for years it was possible to avoid the -def crash on rage via stacking it. Now that we are on i26 things have changed. Many defensive sets are borderline unplayable (Even the iconic Invuln/SS) when they get slapped by a -20% unresistable defense drop.

Would it be possible to remove the -def drop entirely?

To be very clear I think the damage drop and endurance loss should remain.

This crash makes Rage pretty much unusable in any endgame content, as you can't be tanking multiple bosses and/or AVs, and suddenly have your Def crash. It's gotten to the point where Rage is really only usable when quickly trying to clear easy missions. Honestly, I don't see the need for an end crash either. Rage isn't powerful enough to warrant it, but right now using it in most high level content is actually an active detriment.

Rage is awful. It's a power that actually forces you to not take global recharge, cause the more you have, the more often Rage will get you killed when it crashes.

That -def has gotta go.

Unless the intent is for Super Strength to be very mediocre outside Rage and having to risk getting murked to get actually good at dishing out damage each time you pop Rage.

Honestly, I don't see the need for an end crash either. Rage isn't powerful enough to warrant it, but right now using it in most high level content is actually an active detriment.

It’s a Build Up that lasts two minutes. How is a version of Build Up that lasts twelve times as long as normal not something that needs a downside?

But hey, if you can convince the Homecoming team to buff Rage, I guess that’s gravy for me.

I'm with you Vanden, maybe I was having wrongbadfun back in the day but my Inv/SS never had a problem with Rage in endgame content.

Just adding my two cents here... an unresistable -20% def is harsh, and would be on any toon, but esp when you are the team's meat shield. I think it should go. Not really concerned about the end and other stuff, just the def.

that because what you remember from Live is no longer the case.

Rage was supposed to apply a -20% defense debuff on crash, but due to a bug that Paragon never bothered to fix, cause who cares, whenever you reactivated Rage before the crash, it bypassed the -def portion.

But in i25 during the shadow server years, Leandro "fixed" that bug so the -def is unavoidable and it HURTS. And the more global recharge you have, the more often Rage will crash and get you killed.

It especially hurts defense-based defensive sets.

So Rage has the dubious distinction of being the only power you DON'T want to stack more recharge with, as it will actively screw you over doing so. Which runs counter to how the rest of the game works.

You could always just... not click it again before the crash.

Has anyone tried Super Stregnth with Elec Shield? Elec has no defense, all resistance. So in this case, the -Defense does nothing to hurt /Elec.

Honestly, I don't see the need for an end crash either. Rage isn't powerful enough to warrant it, but right now using it in most high level content is actually an active detriment.

It’s a Build Up that lasts two minutes. How is a version of Build Up that lasts twelve times as long as normal not something that needs a downside?

 

But hey, if you can convince the Homecoming team to buff Rage, I guess that’s gravy for me.

For clarity's sake I'm only asking for it to have the same effect as it was on live. The state that rage was in for years. (Which is avoiding the defense drop and still getting hit with -end plus -dmg drop)

Has anyone tried Super Stregnth with Elec Shield? Elec has no defense, all resistance. So in this case, the -Defense does nothing to hurt /Elec.

My main on live was SS/Elec Brute. Loved playing him. And I never noticed any issues with survivability with the defense penalty. Though, I also had soft cap S/L from IOs, so that would have helped.

Honestly, I don't see a reason for the -Def. The damage penalty  and end crash is plenty of appropriate payment for a 2 minute Build Up power that can stack.

I think just making the -Defense resistible would be fine.

Perhaps turn it into a regular Build-Up power instead?

Keep the damage and to-hit bonus, but limit the duration to 10 seconds with a 90 second cooldown, but with no drawbacks.

Perhaps turn it into a regular Build-Up power instead?

 

Keep the damage and to-hit bonus, but limit the duration to 10 seconds with a 90 second cooldown, but with no drawbacks.

Perhaps turn it into a regular Build-Up power instead?

 

Keep the damage and to-hit bonus, but limit the duration to 10 seconds with a 90 second cooldown, but with no drawbacks.

 

I AM serious.

Rage is difficult to balance when you can just skip the crash and get a free, two-minute and stackable buildup while everyone else just gets a 10 second version of that.

So they could tune it down to match it the others, and any crashes would disappear. All while you keep your quick boost of damage and to-hit for important moments.

If you compare build up like powers without taking the rest of the set into consideration. Build momentum would arguably be just as strong. Imagine if other sets could get 10 seconds of hyper fast animations. With a heavy recharge build it's up roughly 25-33% of the time. Especially since it has 0 seconds of -9999% damage. Dark's soul drain is crazy as well. But they fit well in the respective sets. These examples are without a massive survivability drop on ATs built around taking hits.

Base damage is another big thing, compare Radiation Melee's devastating blow to KO blow. Rad melee has 187 base damage and KO Blow has 148. Plus on average most SS attacks have relatively low DPA.

EDIT: If they revert it back to live and suddenly it's somehow overtuned (It would not be) they could even lower the damage boost slightly till it's in line.

Another option would be to have two versions of rage that you can only pick one of (Sorta like Sentinel super reflexes) with one as a toggle to prevent any kind of stacking.

You could also reduce the animation duration during the 10 second build up, making it basically a quick violent lash out to cause extra damage.

It would fit as well, because when enranged, enemies in various mmo's tend to hit harder and faster.

I don't see them reverting Rage to back how it worked on Live, because that was literally a bug that prevented it from working as intended.

Now, I agree that "working as intended" sucks, especially for the main tank of a team, but because of the bug we never really got to have a conversation about whether Rage as intended really made good sense.  I'm not sure what would be a good balancing mechanic, I just know the one we have makes me want to ignore the power completely.

So there is a consequence to having a huge damage bonus for 2 minutes and that's a problem? I would say that there is no real problem here - you rage out, get hit by exhaustion and have to take a breather before you can continue. Yes there is a tactical aspects to this where you have to consider pulling back from the fight for a bit, but I can say I never experienced that as a real stop for any end-game content and even if your defense gets hit, you hopefully still have Resistance?

I get the desire to be all powerful all the time, but I can also remember a time when my tanker could herd an entire map into a dumpster and burn them to a crisp. Changes come - this one was and is not a game stopper.

Perhaps turn it into a regular Build-Up power instead?

 

Keep the damage and to-hit bonus, but limit the duration to 10 seconds with a 90 second cooldown, but with no drawbacks.

I AM serious.

Rage is difficult to balance when you can just skip the crash and get a free, two-minute and stackable buildup while everyone else just gets a 10 second version of that.

 

So they could tune it down to match it the others, and any crashes would disappear. All while you keep your quick boost of damage and to-hit for important moments.

Super Strength is balanced around Rage. And more importantly, having it running full time. SS is a good and fun set, I like it alright. But I would consider it hugely disadvantaged in the late game if it didn't have perma-Rage easily achieved with 3 SO Recharges. Being purely smash damage, SS would start to under perform as other type-mixed sets started getting SOs. I would argue in end-game content Rage starts to become not quite enough.

Rage has plenty of penalties to offset being round-the-clock. It's mainly boosting a set that's almost always resisted to some degree. It comes with an endurance crash. One decent enough to end you if you haven't been paying attention. And SS, being more resisted and therefore requiring more hits to defeat a foe, can sneak up on you with endurance cost. On top of that, you won't be doing any damage for 10 secs. After all that, it's really not necessary to lose defense, you've got 10 secs where foes practically get pot shots.

I mean, leave it in there if it really has to be, but turning it into Build Up wouldn't a good route.

 

I don't see them reverting Rage to back how it worked on Live, because that was literally a bug that prevented it from working as intended.

 

Now, I agree that "working as intended" sucks, especially for the main tank of a team, but because of the bug we never really got to have a conversation about whether Rage as intended really made good sense.  I'm not sure what would be a good balancing mechanic, I just know the one we have makes me want to ignore the power completely.

Now I know this isn't true. Rage used to put you in Only Affecting Self rather than bottom out your damage, and Castle engaged in a dialog with the playerbase when that changed completely centered around the defense debuff. He even floated the idea of putting in a sort of reverse Power Boost that weakened things like holds and taunts instead of the defense debuff, which was something I suggested to him, though ultimately stuck with the current debuff.

I am a Super Strength / Willpower Brute.  I also have a Willpower / Super Strength Tanker.  And for what it's worth, both are Incarnates.  I've played almost all content in this game, from solo to team, and the following is my opinion - Rage needs to change.

 

I've always been told if you're going to address a problem, bring a solution - so here goes.

 

Problem - Rage defense debuff, damage debuff, and endurance crash.  These 3 things have made Rage unplayable for me.  My defense and damage are unreliable, and unless I'm using Willpower, the endurance crash is dangerous.  Playing without Rage is also not a solution, as I'm gimping my damage.  Welcome to the Kobayashi Maru.

 

Solution - Make Rage work exactly like a Build Up power.  100% damage buff and 20% to hit buff for 10 seconds.  90 second recharge.  Burst damage when you need it.  Period.

 

My solution would also make Super Strength accessible to Scrappers, since they already have a Build Up power in their primaries.  There is a precedent of existing comic book characters that have a form of Super Strength but would not be considered Brutes or Tankers.  For IP reasons I am not going to list them here, but you know where to find them.

 

TLDR: Been there, done that, make Rage a Build Up.

 

Thanks for your time.

/JRanger

 

I don't see them reverting Rage to back how it worked on Live, because that was literally a bug that prevented it from working as intended.

 

Now, I agree that "working as intended" sucks, especially for the main tank of a team, but because of the bug we never really got to have a conversation about whether Rage as intended really made good sense.  I'm not sure what would be a good balancing mechanic, I just know the one we have makes me want to ignore the power completely.

Now I know this isn't true. Rage used to put you in Only Affecting Self rather than bottom out your damage, and Castle engaged in a dialog with the playerbase when that changed completely centered around the defense debuff. He even floated the idea of putting in a sort of reverse Power Boost that weakened things like holds and taunts instead of the defense debuff, which was something I suggested to him, though ultimately stuck with the current debuff.

Whether it worked differently in the past (I didn't play SS until late in the game I think), the power as currently designed includes a crash that you could avoid only thanks to a game bug.  Like I said, they're not going to reintroduce the game bug just because people liked it.  I don't like the crash, but if your only argument is "It was better before, change it back" then I think that's a non-starter.

Perhaps turn it into a regular Build-Up power instead?

 

Keep the damage and to-hit bonus, but limit the duration to 10 seconds with a 90 second cooldown, but with no drawbacks.

 

I AM serious.

Rage is difficult to balance when you can just skip the crash and get a free, two-minute and stackable buildup while everyone else just gets a 10 second version of that.

 

So they could tune it down to match it the others, and any crashes would disappear. All while you keep your quick boost of damage and to-hit for important moments.

 

Super Strength is balanced around Rage. And more importantly, having it running full time. SS is a good and fun set, I like it alright. But I would consider it hugely disadvantaged in the late game if it didn't have perma-Rage easily achieved with 3 SO Recharges. Being purely smash damage, SS would start to under perform as other type-mixed sets started getting SOs. I would argue in end-game content Rage starts to become not quite enough.

 

Rage has plenty of penalties to offset being round-the-clock. It's mainly boosting a set that's almost always resisted to some degree. It comes with an endurance crash. One decent enough to end you if you haven't been paying attention. And SS, being more resisted and therefore requiring more hits to defeat a foe, can sneak up on you with endurance cost. On top of that, you won't be doing any damage for 10 secs. After all that, it's really not necessary to lose defense, you've got 10 secs where foes practically get pot shots.

 

I mean, leave it in there if it really has to be, but turning it into Build Up wouldn't a good route.

Exactly this.  Outside of footstomp, every single other power is the one of, if not the weakest compared to other sets when you look at damage per animation second.  Hell, Boxing is even better than Jab. Ice is arguably better than SS outside of rage once you get some very high recharge.  Frozen Aura is footstomp clone but with ice damage (less resisted).  Now granted the radius is higher on footstomp but the damage is the same and the animation time is the same. Freezing touch only has a 16 second recharge vs 25 for KO blow and it animates much faster and is one of the hardest hitting attacks for brutes (by DPA).  If you wanted to change Rage to Build up instead, the whole set would need tweaking. 

If it were my job to rebalance the set to drop Rage and change it to BU I would start by dumping jab and throwing in a 12 second recharge superior damage attack that hits like say Heavy Mallet from stone or Swoop from Axe.  Then I would lower the animation time on Punch to be faster like Energy Punch as well.  There could be other tweaks as well but that would be a decent start to bring it in line with other sets.

You could always just... not click it again before the crash.

Could just not pick it, too