Put the Statesman Task Force and Lord Recluse Strike Force back as they were

Look, I don't care that Statesman et al. are dead. These TFs are simply lesser for their absence. I know there were plans by Paragon Studios to put the original versions of the TFs in Ouroboros, but that's just not a good solution. The original versions are the definitive versions, and should be front and center in presentation. Just put the dialog and missions back as they were, and write a blurb in the initial and final contact dialog about how your character is flashing back to the time they did the TF/SF before Statesman died, or how it simply takes place before then.

Somewhat related, I was confused then shocked to realise that the reason there's a Penelope Yin TF is because she's replacing the LATE Sister Psyche. I was like "Wait, Sister Psyche is dead? I thought it was only Statesman", granted PY's TF is super fast and a good way to get 26 merits but I felt like I never got the chance to do Sister Psyche's TF now.

I'd agree with an Ouro version of States and Recluse's original TF but I don't know how it's going to be easy to explain how the rest of the game treats them as if they're dead when they're standing around Port Independence like ...!

The other question I just thought of is whether we (as a community) have the source code for those old TFs still. Because they were 'removed' and it's not sure if they were just dummied out or straight up deleted from the code. If it's the former it can be restored by cunning developers but if it wasn't.....

They're still there and available via Ouro.

While i never agreed with the killing off of statesman (or sister psyke) it's done and too many elements of the game reference this change for it to be rolled back. While there was no real flow of time originally in game Pargon/cryptic decided at some point (I18?) that levels would now correspond to time - ie all level 50 content would take place after level 40, which was chronologically after level 30 etc etc. hence yin being a kid in faultline then a member of the phalanx in IP. Thats how they were able to amend Maria Jenkins arc. The previous ouro arc happened in the past and is referenced in the new one:

The Final Chapter: Rescue Positron

A few years back when we first uncovered Praetoria, Statesman, rest his soul, was kidnapped by Tyrant and held in bonds. We had a theory that Statesman and Tyrant were nearly identical and that lead us to believe that Statesman was powerless to their technology. What a load of bunk that turned out to be! We thought those bonds held him because of that theory, but we recently deduced that those bonds themselves are powered by the Praetorian Well of the Furies. They are the only thing in the multi-verse that can hold an Incarnate like Statesman, which means poor Positron is powerless against it!

 

If Emperor Cole is keeping Positron alive, he'll have him in those exact same bonds. It's the only way he can keep him from escaping. If that's truly the case, we know exactly where to portal you in to save him.

Just put the dialog and missions back as they were, and write a blurb in the initial and final contact dialog about how your character is flashing back to the time they did the TF/SF before Statesman died, or how it simply takes place before then.

This is literally what Ourobus is for. If you want to play the old ones you still can via ourobus and they still count towards the various badges they used to reward.

/jranger

It's fine in Ouro, but the Paragon story has moved forward. To reinstate them goes against the grain and is a retrograde step.

I don't think the Penny Yin TF is a patch on the Sister P original but it is what it is, and STF is pretty well exactly what we had but it's given to us by Ms Lib instead. I don't think Statesman should come back, I'm not even sure if there is even a huge desire fro him to do so and I feel that if a story is dynamic, change must happen. If we dislike it... well sooner or later it'll change. But to have a static game would be dreadful and dull and it woudln't have survived the way it has.

They're still there and available via Ouro.

They aren't, in fact, at least not redside. I already looked for them.

/jranger

 

It's fine in Ouro, but the Paragon story has moved forward. To reinstate them goes against the grain and is a retrograde step.

 

I don't think the Penny Yin TF is a patch on the Sister P original but it is what it is, and STF is pretty well exactly what we had but it's given to us by Ms Lib instead. I don't think Statesman should come back, I'm not even sure if there is even a huge desire fro him to do so and I feel that if a story is dynamic, change must happen. If we dislike it... well sooner or later it'll change. But to have a static game would be dreadful and dull and it woudln't have survived the way it has.

The story has moved forward, but these TFs take place before that happened. There are numerous arcs with a disclaimer that they take place after the events of issue 23, there's no reason we can't have two with a disclaimer that says they happened before something.

I kind of like the fact that they killed Jack Emmert in game.

The skullduggerous knaive he was. The fiendish ne'er-do-well.

They're still there and available via Ouro.

 

They aren't, in fact, at least not redside. I already looked for them.

 

/jranger

 

It's fine in Ouro, but the Paragon story has moved forward. To reinstate them goes against the grain and is a retrograde step.

 

I don't think the Penny Yin TF is a patch on the Sister P original but it is what it is, and STF is pretty well exactly what we had but it's given to us by Ms Lib instead. I don't think Statesman should come back, I'm not even sure if there is even a huge desire fro him to do so and I feel that if a story is dynamic, change must happen. If we dislike it... well sooner or later it'll change. But to have a static game would be dreadful and dull and it woudln't have survived the way it has.

The story has moved forward, but these TFs take place before that happened. There are numerous arcs with a disclaimer that they take place after the events of issue 23, there's no reason we can't have two with a disclaimer that says they happened before something.

The bolded, Italicized, underlined line is the important one - STF, A Hero's Hero, and Sister Psyche are BLUESIDE ARCS AND TFS.  If you are redside, you could only access them by being a Rogue and having a bluesider start them via Ouro.  The LRSF, I'm not sure if that changed when States died; if it did, then I'm reasonably certain the original is in Ouro just like the STF, Hero's Hero, Calvin Scott, Sister Psyche, etc. are.

The only change I'd like to see is to remove the guy who killed them from just standing around, giving out missions, and being referenced in Tip missions.  If Statesman and Sister Psyche were retroactively erased from all the game's stories (and replaced with other contacts) due to the Who Will Die arc, why wasn't their killer removed and replaced the same way?

I don't think there'd be an aversion to treating Darrin Wade the same as States/Psyche, but that may be outside Homecoming's immediate scope; they'd need to write a new character to fit the arc he gives, which needs to remain in the game as it's got a badge connected to it.  They'd also need to change the badge text, as it references Wade - or create a new one a la Penny.

They're still there and available via Ouro.

 

They aren't, in fact, at least not redside. I already looked for them.

 

The bolded, Italicized, underlined line is the important one - STF, A Hero's Hero, and Sister Psyche are BLUESIDE ARCS AND TFS.  If you are redside, you could only access them by being a Rogue and having a bluesider start them via Ouro.  The LRSF, I'm not sure if that changed when States died; if it did, then I'm reasonably certain the original is in Ouro just like the STF, Hero's Hero, Calvin Scott, Sister Psyche, etc. are.

Okay, do you really think I looked in the Villain side Ouroboros for Hero side arcs? You think I'm that stupid? I looked for the old LRSF. And it's not there. I was able to check the blueside Ouroboros for the old STF, and it, too, is not there.

And of course the LRSF changed when Statesman died, that's 90% of the reason I made this thread. He's simply gone from the final mission, with no replacement. It makes the final mission significantly easier, not to mention less epic, to not have Statesman there throwing around lightning bolts. And it also ruins the meta-narrative around the two TFs; before Statesman died it was two archrivals, fighting to stop the other. A classic comic book story. Now it's just Recluse trying to pull off another evil plan.

The only change I'd like to see is to remove the guy who killed them from just standing around, giving out missions, and being referenced in Tip missions.  If Statesman and Sister Psyche were retroactively erased from all the game's stories (and replaced with other contacts) due to the Who Will Die arc, why wasn't their killer removed and replaced the same way?

^ I partially agree with this. Given the fact what HAPPENED to Wade it makes no sense you can see him in game. He's a prisoner of war now. We shouldn't be able to give him an in game /em slap or RP next to him.

Now, for the points I dont agree with one bit. Reverting two TFs back to the way they were simply because the older versions were harder, undermining the entire Signature Story Arcs as a whole and lets not forget the fact its been -years- since they've both been been killed and buried. An easy fix for this? Ouroboros, just as the Devs nicely if they could put the old versions of the TFs in Ouroboros because frankly that makes far more sense. They have a lot to do and they do it in their own free time, so I don't see why they should undo things like this after so long. Its insulting to the narrative. I'd personally love to see the older TFs come back in Ouro if the team has time to do it, that would be lovely. But I'd hate to see the new stuff be completely retconned or undone.

Now, for the points I dont agree with one bit. Reverting two TFs back to the way they were simply because the older versions were harder, undermining the entire Signature Story Arcs as a whole and lets not forget the fact its been -years- since they've both been dead and buried. An easy fix for this? Ouroboros, just as the Devs nicely if they could put the old versions of the TFs in Ouroboros because frankly that makes far more sense. They have a lot to do and they do it in their own free time, so I don't see why they should undo things like this after so long. Its insulting to the narrative. I'd personally love to see the older TFs come back in Ouro if the team has time to do it, that would be lovely. But I'd hate to see the new stuff be completely retconned or undone.

This, entirely. One-hundred percent agree with this point. Even with the fact the game was just recently brought back after several years, it doesn't make any sense at all to revamp the task forces back to how they were and literally get rid of the current ones. I personally vastly prefer Penelope Yin's TF over Sister Psyche's, and Miss Liberty's TF is pretty much the same as Statesman's but just with her as the contact instead. I know Sister Psyche's TF is available in Ouroboros, I could see them implementing the old Lord Recluse one into Ouroboros if they had the time for people who just can't handle a single mission being easier to complete. Statesman's though? Do we really need that if it already exists under a different name?

The only change I'd like to see is to remove the guy who killed them from just standing around, giving out missions, and being referenced in Tip missions.  If Statesman and Sister Psyche were retroactively erased from all the game's stories (and replaced with other contacts) due to the Who Will Die arc, why wasn't their killer removed and replaced the same way?

 

^ I partially agree with this. Given the fact what HAPPENED to Wade it makes no sense you can see him in game. He's a prisoner of war now. We shouldn't be able to give him an in game /em slap or RP next to him.

 

Now, for the points I dont agree with one bit. Reverting two TFs back to the way they were simply because the older versions were harder, undermining the entire Signature Story Arcs as a whole and lets not forget the fact its been -years- since they've both been been killed and buried. An easy fix for this? Ouroboros, just as the Devs nicely if they could put the old versions of the TFs in Ouroboros because frankly that makes far more sense. They have a lot to do and they do it in their own free time, so I don't see why they should undo things like this after so long. Its insulting to the narrative. I'd personally love to see the older TFs come back in Ouro if the team has time to do it, that would be lovely. But I'd hate to see the new stuff be completely retconned or undone.

Darrin Wade is a 20-30 contact. He's not revealed as the mastermind behind Who Will Die until part 4, a 30-40 arc, and he doesn't really start upsetting things until part 5, which is 40-50.

As for reverting the STF and LRSF, it doesn't undermine the signature story arc. The TFs simply take place before the events of the signature story arc. If anything, it's the SSA that undermines the TFs, since without Statesman the TFs have less meaningful personal stakes for the contacts, and the last mission of the LRSF is significantly easier, when the whole point of the SF is to be a challenge. And the newer versions of the TFs are definitely retcons, so if you don't want retcons, they're the ones that need to go.

This, entirely. One-hundred percent agree with this point. Even with the fact the game was just recently brought back after several years, it doesn't make any sense at all to revamp the task forces back to how they were and literally get rid of the current ones. I personally vastly prefer Penelope Yin's TF over Sister Psyche's, and Miss Liberty's TF is pretty much the same as Statesman's but just with her as the contact instead. I know Sister Psyche's TF is available in Ouroboros, I could see them implementing the old Lord Recluse one into Ouroboros if they had the time for people who just can't handle a single mission being easier to complete. Statesman's though? Do we really need that if it already exists under a different name?

I never said anything about the Sister Psyche TF. As for the MLTF, it might be virtually the same as the STF, but if the LRSF were to be reverted it makes no sense to not also revert its counterpart on the hero side.

Frankly as far as the STF is concerned other than Miss Liberty now giving the quest and some flavor text the TF hasn't changed so Oro for it is pointless.  As I only ran the LRSF once years ago I can't speak for it but the STF is for all practical purposes unchanged by becoming the MLTF.

Darrin Wade is a 20-30 contact. He's not revealed as the mastermind behind Who Will Die until part 4, a 30-40 arc, and he doesn't really start upsetting things until part 5, which is 40-50.

Yeah, but they threw all that "level = time" stuff out with that storyline.

Penny Yin's taskforce is also level 20, but she's only giving out a taskforce because Sister Psyche is already dead.  Statesman and Sister Psyche are considered dead the second you enter Atlas Park or the Rogue Isles.

So if Statesman is dead and removed from the game when you're level 1, and Sister Psyche is dead and removed from the game when you're level 1, why is Wade still standing around when you're level 50?

They're still there and available via Ouro.

 

They aren't, in fact, at least not redside. I already looked for them.

 

The bolded, Italicized, underlined line is the important one - STF, A Hero's Hero, and Sister Psyche are BLUESIDE ARCS AND TFS.  If you are redside, you could only access them by being a Rogue and having a bluesider start them via Ouro.  The LRSF, I'm not sure if that changed when States died; if it did, then I'm reasonably certain the original is in Ouro just like the STF, Hero's Hero, Calvin Scott, Sister Psyche, etc. are.

 

Okay, do you really think I looked in the Villain side Ouroboros for Hero side arcs? You think I'm that stupid? I looked for the old LRSF. And it's not there. I was able to check the blueside Ouroboros for the old STF, and it, too, is not there.

 

And of course the LRSF changed when Statesman died, that's 90% of the reason I made this thread. He's simply gone from the final mission, with no replacement. It makes the final mission significantly easier, not to mention less epic, to not have Statesman there throwing around lightning bolts. And it also ruins the meta-narrative around the two TFs; before Statesman died it was two archrivals, fighting to stop the other. A classic comic book story. Now it's just Recluse trying to pull off another evil plan.

First, I don't think you're stupid, per se - but I do think there are a million and one reasons people can miss things, misread things, not think of the obvious, et cetera.  I err on the side of "humanity, self and present company included, does stupid things all the time, so first rule is DOUBLE-CHECK THE BASICS".  This is why Philotic Knight so often has to post the "I feel sheepish" gif; we may be SMART, but we can still DO stupid stuff.

Second, that's puzzling - Psyche's TF IS in Ouro, as is the Statesman version of Hero's Hero.  Since Psyche and Statesman died in sequential parts of the SSAs, why ISN'T the STF/RSF old versions in there with Psyche?  They should have been done all at the same time, one release after States's death; given we were approaching SSA 2 Part 2 when the axe fell, moving stuff to Ouro must be more complicated than it looks.  If possible with current dev-time and resources, then yes, get them in Ouro.

Third, if I remember correctly, States's spot was intended to be filled by a player's character - basically, the devs were going to 'ascend' someone to the Phalanx, whether by popular vote or by some other choice system.  I agree with your assessment of the overall difficulty difference not having States there would inherently make - but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing, given the disparity between the LRSF and the STF end-fights already.  However, working from the base assumption it IS a bad thing, we could in fact ask the devs to slot in someone to States's place.  There's a sad wealth of notables who haven't and won't be joining us here due to the bony old bastard taking their hand...so let one of them stand in his place.  Or if possible, ALL of them via a randomizer for the last Phalanx slot.

Darrin Wade is a 20-30 contact. He's not revealed as the mastermind behind Who Will Die until part 4, a 30-40 arc, and he doesn't really start upsetting things until part 5, which is 40-50.

 

Yeah, but they threw all that "level = time" stuff out with that storyline.

 

Penny Yin's taskforce is also level 20, but she's only giving out a taskforce because Sister Psyche is already dead.  Statesman and Sister Psyche are considered dead the second you enter Atlas Park or the Rogue Isles.

 

So if Statesman is dead and removed from the game when you're level 1, and Sister Psyche is dead and removed from the game when you're level 1, why is Wade still standing around when you're level 50?

See my post upthread - I agree Wade should have been given the same treatment, but since he's not 'beaten' until the 7th SSA and we only had one release - SSA 2 part 1 - between 7 and axe, the Paragon Studios folks might not have had time to write a new character to fit Wade's place.  Homecoming would have to fill that gap; while I think the immersive touch would be nice, right now I'd rather their efforts be spent on stability and balance.  If they can do it in 'spare time', great; if not, backburner it is.

For what its worth - Sister Psyche seems to be doing OK in Galaxy City, taking out Shivans left and right...

On 6/15/2019 at 6:49 PM, Sniktch said:

 

First, I don't think you're stupid, per se - but I do think there are a million and one reasons people can miss things, misread things, not think of the obvious, et cetera.  I err on the side of "humanity, self and present company included, does stupid things all the time, so first rule is DOUBLE-CHECK THE BASICS".  This is why Philotic Knight so often has to post the "I feel sheepish" gif; we may be SMART, but we can still DO stupid stuff.

 

Second, that's puzzling - Psyche's TF IS in Ouro, as is the Statesman version of Hero's Hero.  Since Psyche and Statesman died in sequential parts of the SSAs, why ISN'T the STF/RSF old versions in there with Psyche?  They should have been done all at the same time, one release after States's death; given we were approaching SSA 2 Part 2 when the axe fell, moving stuff to Ouro must be more complicated than it looks.  If possible with current dev-time and resources, then yes, get them in Ouro.

 

Third, if I remember correctly, States's spot was intended to be filled by a player's character - basically, the devs were going to 'ascend' someone to the Phalanx, whether by popular vote or by some other choice system.  I agree with your assessment of the overall difficulty difference not having States there would inherently make - but I'm not sure that's entirely a bad thing, given the disparity between the LRSF and the STF end-fights already.  However, working from the base assumption it IS a bad thing, we could in fact ask the devs to slot in someone to States's place.  There's a sad wealth of notables who haven't and won't be joining us here due to the bony old bastard taking their hand...so let one of them stand in his place.  Or if possible, ALL of them via a randomizer for the last Phalanx slot.

 

 

 

See my post upthread - I agree Wade should have been given the same treatment, but since he's not 'beaten' until the 7th SSA and we only had one release - SSA 2 part 1 - between 7 and axe, the Paragon Studios folks might not have had time to write a new character to fit Wade's place.  Homecoming would have to fill that gap; while I think the immersive touch would be nice, right now I'd rather their efforts be spent on stability and balance.  If they can do it in 'spare time', great; if not, backburner it is.

I for one would totally vote to make Ascendant (with the "A") the new leader of the Freedom Phalanx. I cry a little every time I see him in Steel Canyon.

All this time I was thinking Babs wasn't in there before and was just a poor substitute for States. And I was blaming incarnate stuff for squishies not dying left and right. Now I'm a sad. Yes, please, old LRSF in ouro, i'd run it every time. STF I don't care as much since the actual TF isn't affected.

And while we're at it can we make Ms. Liberty not targetable? She's somehow always my closest target no matter where I stand and I have to manually target or rotate to the person I want next.

On 6/13/2019 at 7:51 PM, SwitchFade said:

I kind of like the fact that they killed Jack Emmert in game.

 

The skullduggerous knaive he was. The fiendish ne'er-do-well.

I am too. Emmert was such a condescending jerk on the boards that it seemed like he was more or less banned from posting to keep community morale up. His attitude was entirely "you will enjoy COH in exactly the way I have ordained". A lot of that resentment trickled over to Statesman (or Statesdouche). So I got a chuckle when they killed off his Marty Stu. 

On 6/15/2019 at 5:49 AM, Sniktch said:

 

Third, if I remember correctly, States's spot was intended to be filled by a player's character - basically, the devs were going to 'ascend' someone to the Phalanx, whether by popular vote or by some other choice system. 

Aww, I would have loved to see Boaty McBoatface lead the Freedom Phalanx!

2 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Aww, I would have loved to see Boaty McBoatface lead the Freedom Phalanx!

For leader of Freedom Phalanx I think you mean Capey McCapperton. Boaty McBoatface would be his mobile base whenever he had an aquatic mission.

5 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

His attitude was entirely "you will enjoy COH in exactly the way I have ordained".

I started tuning him out about the time when he made the post about how fun in a video game, for him, was throwing himself at the end boss again and again, wiping over and over and over and over until he found the one trick that let him defeat them, and that this was how he wanted AVs to work in CoH. As if the first person/group that found out how to defeat some end boss wasn't going to throw it up all over the Internet as soon as they figured it out. The fun isn't beating the boss; we know that it can be done and how to do it -- the fun is figuring out a way to do it better.

I'd rather just see them get added to Ouro and leave the real versions as they are.

1 minute ago, MunkiLord said:

I'd rather just see them get added to Ouro and leave the real versions as they are.

Seems like the simplest solution.