Blackfeather

November 22, 2020

@WindDemon21 you might like to chime in here:

November 21, 2020

23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I get that, but at the same time a longer rech, with more damage means more DPA, as well as better proc-ability. That was a change suggested to ALL controller ST immobilizes, cause as of right now they're pretty bad for focusing on damage or procs.

Mmhm - per my response a change like that with a swathe of alterations across multiple powersets I'd probably put in a dedicated "Buff Control Powersets" thread: I tend to try to avoid making overarching alterations to how powers work as part of something more focused (unless said big change is the focus, like my thread on providing a means to let Controllers lock down AVs/GMs more easily). Basically, discussing the amount of changes that it'd take to the archetypes as a whole is worth a discussion in of itself.

23 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I would also prefer to keep shiver without a damage component as well, as in any flash freeze scenario, cause no matter how it changes we know it will largely remain a sleep first power, it is best to follow up with shiver without actually waking the mobs. If you want to wake them up, that's what frostbite is for. Shiver just needs better adjusted stats, not a damage component. Especially as with AA, you're mainly in melee anyway to want to spam a cone like that, hence the longer duration needed for shiver.

You know, I actually didn't think of activating Shiver straight after Flash Freeze as something that'd be used all that much because I just flat out don't take AoE Sleeps most of the time - it's suboptimal to me, especially when Ice Control has a power pick that basically negates its effect just before (Ice Slick and its knockdown patch).

Combine this with the fact that I tend to combine Ice Control with a secondary that provides a means of reducing the impact of alpha strikes (e.g. Nature Affinity's Spore Cloud with its -ToHit), and it means that Flash Freeze just didn't stand out all that much to me as something to take.

I do think I can answer your concerns about the proposed changes to Shiver that I'm making - they'll be similar in nature to the ones that I talked about with @Monos King when they asked about how it'd might affect Flash Freeze:

Flash Freeze comes in at level 18 - kind of late in the set to take alpha strikes
- Other powersets have something to deal with enemies en masse as early as level 8 or 12
Arctic Air is generally a better choice to follow up Flash Freeze with: it actually confuses enemies rather than just slowing them down
An enemy slept by Flash Freeze still won't do anything, so the slow in Shiver will only matter if an enemy prematurely wakes up
- Otherwise Shiver's effect is 'wasted', since there are no attacks to slow down (enemies still asleep)

Given all these factors, I do think the proposed modifications to Shiver provides more benefits than drawbacks.

On 11/18/2020 at 3:34 PM, WindDemon21 said:

I agree to an extent, and not that ice control shouldn't have some sort of a damage bump, but simply that having that damage with the sleep itself, is really bad for starting groups. Being a sleep already has it's main drawback for starting fights like that, and besides ice slick ice has no other "every mob control" that almost every other control set has.

The ideas floating around about having the damage occur, at least in some form, when they wake up/broken out of it is fine, but when you're talking about using it for a proc power, it's completely negating it's actual use as a fight opener like every other control set can do, which again, ice isn't stepping on any toes with it's only real every mob opener being a sleep.

I think, in a large part of this discussion, where procs are the consideration for damage, that one, the slow sets in this game REALLY need an overhaul on stats (damage being more enhanced that end/rech or even accuracy in some what!??) and in bonuses, and outright needing more sets, which at least 2 more with a damage proc each would give you those procs right there. So if you want to slot damage procs, THAT'S where it should come from, not from having a tiny amount of damage just to be able to slot those procs in it.

Also, how about a 3rd new slow set, with a -res proc? Yes please. But damage in flash freeze's initial hit causing retaliation from it's only every mob "lockdown" power, no thanks.

I'm going to disagree here. Adding damage to powers that inflict Sleep on enemies isn't a problem. They only cause enemies to retaliate due to being lazily designed (i.e. with a small window in between damage being inflicted + Sleep being applied). Fix that, and Sleeps that do damage cease to be an issue. It shouldn't be a reason to get rid of their damage outright, especially on Ice Control, given its already low ability to deal damage.

That being said, you're right about Flash Freeze currently being the only opener in Ice Control, and that as an AoE Sleep, it's somewhat lacklustre - that's why I proposed the changes I did to it in the original post. Alongside this, my changes to Shiver were designed to provide Ice Control with another means of opening a fight: by giving it a 50% chance to Hold affected enemies (Mag 2).

On 11/18/2020 at 3:34 PM, WindDemon21 said:

Yes I agree, they all should only suppress not detoggle (stares at rad emission).

Probably a good idea to make a new thread on this in that case - I'm personally fine with how toggles work at the moment.

November 18, 2020

6 minutes ago, CrudeVileTerror said:

I think @Blackfeather has done a really wonderful job with the https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/22414-overwhelming-overpower-a-controller-inherent-buff-control-avs-and-gms/ thread.

If anyone ever wants an example of a really great way to handle a suggestion thread, I think this is an excellent example! (Of course, the Devs' opinions matters more than mine. I just really like Blackfeather's approach, and want to express some kudos.)

Daaaaaaw, shucks! Thank you - though now I've gotta toot my horn on this other thread I've made! 🤣

EDIT: And of course, this pinned message is a nice general guideline on suggestion writing.

November 18, 2020

I will say that I'm a fan of "contingency" style powers like Rune of Protection and Unleash Potential on my more fragile characters - ones used to up survivability on the fly when necessary. Not sure how well it'd translate to a dedicated armour powerset though.

November 18, 2020

Hey there, thanks for taking a look at this thread, @oedipus_tex! Those thoughts sound interesting, let's see...

5 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

The Blaster version of Shiver was recently buffed.

The power now has a 60 second duration, up from 18 seconds. At the very minimum Ice Control's Shiver should match that. I'm on the fence on whether or not this power should become a true mezz. There's an argument for and against it.

I'd definitely be alright with extending the duration - do you think it should work in the same way? I.e. halving in potency after those 18 seconds.

I've got a couple of reasons for Shiver getting a 50% chance to Hold:

It provides Ice Control with a means of handling initial strikes at a similar level range to other Control powersets
- The lower reliability and strength (Mag 2) helps keep Ice Control's "lockdown via -Recharge/-Movement" at the forefront
- It's a potential draw for Dominators to go Ice Control via Domination, via a chance for a Mag 4 Hold?
- Currently only Flash Freeze can do this, and at a later comparative level
  - Also an AoE Sleep, which alone are kind of lacklustre (my proposal hopes to improve that)
There's precedence for a near-identical power doing something like this: Poison's Neurotoxic Breath (25%, Mag 2)
- While it's not quite the same as one version of Shiver getting a buff, it's arguably close enough to warrant looking at
- Doubly so because Neurotoxic Breath comes from a Support powerset, while Shiver is in a Control powerset (hence the higher Hold chance)

Would definitely be interested in hearing the arguments against such a change!

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

There is such a thing as Unresistable -Recharge.

The Kinetics power Siphon Speed deals -20% Recharge that is unresistable. This means AVs eat the full debuff. I think giving Ice Control a similar amount of -Recharge would make its abilities worthwhile.

Out of curiosity, how much -Recharge does it take to floor an Archvillain, come to think of it? I think it was something like -500%? Ice Control on a Controller at the moment has, let's see...

Chillblain = -37.5%
Block of Ice = -37.5%
Frostbite = -37.5%
Arctic Air = -81.25%
Shiver = -81.25%
Glacier = -62.5%
Jack Frost (Chilling Embrace) = Unknown?

I wouldn't mind having some additional -Recharge to play with, especially given that Ice Control's schtick is handling longer, drawn out fights. Which power do you think would be the best fit for it? Otherwise, I'm thinking of making each power have a portion of their -Movement/-Recharge unresistable, maybe to the tune of ~10-20% or so?

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

Arctic Air should Dominate somehow.

Arctic Air currently is double-nerfed. It has both the shorter mezz duration Dominators get outside of Domination, and lacks the longer duration Dominators should get in Domination mode. Note that Domination does not have to clone the 30% Chance for Mag 3 if developers think that is overpowered. There are some powers that only Dominate at Mag 1 or that adjust the mezz chances in other ways.

Personally I think the best scheme for this power is a switch mechanic based on the player's Domination state.

Outside Domination: Use current "normal" mezz rules.

Inside Domination: Suppress "normal" mezz rules. Replace with 30% chance for Mag 6 Confuse, 4 second duration. That would make the power confuse bosses but still leave holes in coverage.

That does sound odd, especially given that Seeds of Confusion works with Domination, and can be easily permanently kept up. It sounds like an oversight that should be fixed. I wouldn't even be opposed to Domination working directly on it (i.e. double Magnitude, double duration). Combined with those proposed changes to Shiver, there'd be more than enough reasons for a Dominator to pick this over a Controller, with the trade-off being primarily the amount of -Recharge/-Movement they both deal...oh.

Hmm. Going back to that previous point, how much should a Dominator be able to debuff -Recharge/-Movement compared to a Controller? Having the same portion of Ice Control be unresistable does mean that there may be a bit less reason to go Controller for the soft control than Dominator, but not sure about the numbers there.

10 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

It's possible to make a Hold or other mezz that breaks when the enemy takes damage.

This was proven with the new Blaster power Choking Cloud. I could see this put to creative use in a few powers. The power developer can control the chances of the mezz breaking on damage. In Choking Cloud its 50% but that can be adjusted per power or effect.

Oh! Which powers in Ice Control were you thinking could benefit from making use of a mechanic like this, out of curiosity?

November 18, 2020

7 minutes ago, Greycat said:

I think you'd have to pair them, so someone couldn't say "OK, entrance to this room has no rank" but the exit is only accessible by one or two ranks - either intentionally or unintentionally. Granted, it would (potentially) be fixed by /stuck or just logging out, but still.

(Honestly, there are a *lot* of things with rank that need looking at in general.)

If it's anything, it's already possible to do something like this - you can teleport a player into the inside of a cage for example.

November 18, 2020

5 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

I'll have to test again but I don't think Mesmerize has that problem. Flash Freeze didn't always either, but it has been an issue as far as I can tell since homecoming for whatever reason. WHATEVER changes come to Flash Freeze, that small damage at the start of it has to go.

5 hours ago, Vanden said:

No, Mesmerize definitely has that problem too - the sleep is applied 1/4th of a second after the damage hits, and the AI usually isn't allowed to queue up an attack within that window, but sometimes it does.

4 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Yeah it may I wasn't sure, I just know since it's a damage power first primarily, and mag 4s bosses a good while after or at least detoggles stuff, that it's much less of an issue vs. Flash Freeze. I do know for sure that they don't retaliate often as well, just couldn't guarantee they 100% don't.

Yup. Here's a nice look at how Flash Freeze works - all damaging Sleeps do similar things, inflicting a Sleep after 0.25 seconds. For reference, here's Mesmerize. If it applied immediately (with the caveat of not breaking), it wouldn't be an issue.

November 18, 2020

Hey there @WindDemon21, apologies it took a while, needed to think about the best way to address those suggestions of yours, thanks for putting them down here! I'll go through them one by one.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

1. For all ST immobilizes, make the dot all go within 2 seconds, with bumped up damage and recharge.

To my knowledge, increases to damage also result in an increase to endurance usage, standard damage formula and all that. I'm not entirely certain that this would be a positive change to the Control powersets. Generally, the lower damaging ones are that way due to a lack of options to deal damage, rather than the actual performance of their powers: Electric and Earth Control are nice examples of that (compare them to Darkness Control for contrast).

It's true that Ice Control is generally lacking in damage as a whole, but I think a more effective change would be to introduce additional options for damage, rather than just increasing what's currently available.

To this end, per my original post, Shiver gets some minor damage attached to it, as does Flash Freeze if an enemy prematurely breaks their constraints. Additionally, more slotting options in some powers provides further opportunities to do proc damage, something that's somewhat lacking in Ice Control, as @Sir Myshkin has attested to in their Controller proc-monster thread.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

2. Flash Freeze: Personally I'd rather the damage just be removed completely, but either way it needs it's animation time reduced. The havoc punch/bone smasher animation would be perfect for it. Have it include some -speed/-rech, and it's rech should be 45s not 90.

I've mentioned it before in this thread , but I'd rather not have the damage removed myself: Ice Control is already a fairly low damage powerset, and I'm looking to offset that somewhat, rather than exacerbate it. Being able to slot Targeted AoE enhancements also enables the power to carry quite a number of procs.

Something to keep in mind is that a similar power: Salt Crystals in Earth Control also has the exact same recharge time. I'm also cognisant of @th0ughtGun's concerns about Ice Control becoming overly effective at taking alpha strikes - as mentioned before to them, I intend to keep its soft control via -Recharge/-Movement debuffs at the forefront. I think decreasing Flash Freeze's recharge time would go against this goal.

That being said, per my original post, my proposal does indeed include -Recharge/-Movement: I do believe that Sleep powers ought to do something else alongside the status effect that they inflict for the most part.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

3. Shiver: I love this power, but it's absurd how it only lasts 18s with a 30s rech, where even the blaster version lasts 18s but is on a 12s recharge. I would imagine that these numbers were likely reversed on inception and just nobody ever bothered to look at it, as most people i see usually skip it anyway. I would picture more something like a 15s rech, and 45 second duration.

I'd be interested in your thoughts on what I've done to Shiver, as per my original proposal!

Quote

Shiver: Ranged (Cone), Foe -Recharge, -SPD, Foe Hold, Minor DMG(Cold)

50% chance to Hold (Mag 2)

Deals minor Cold damage

Can now be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements

Similarly, @oedipus_tex has mentioned that Shiver for Blasters (Ice Manipulation) has been changed somewhat on Beta, which can be seen here:

Quote

Shiver
Half of the debuff now lasts 60 seconds (previously the entire debuff dropped off after 18 seconds, now only half of it does)

I think that'd be a fair thing to adopt for Ice Control as well - what do you think?

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

4. Ice Slick: For starters, it's insanely dumb, that this, and ice patch, can not be enhanced for slow. This needs to be added and allow for slow sets. Additionally, as a primarily cornerstone power for ice control, I feel it's recharge should be bumped down to 60 seconds.

Psst, take a look at my original post. 😉

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

5. Glacier: I love this power, but like all controller aoe holds, esp since the blaster nuke changes, should have their recharged reduced to at least 2 minutes instead of 4.

I think a general discussion on the role of AoE Holds, their recharge times, and how they should be treated is worth an entire thread in of itself - @SeraphimKensai has brought this up a while back here.

Since this was more a general change that'd affect multiple powersets, I thought it'd be best to leave it out: per my OP, I did find that the recharge debuff on Glacier was oddly low, however, hence why its duration was increased.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

6. Arctic Air: A terrific power, until detoggled. Like all interactive toggles, they should only suppress when mezzed, not toggled off. This coding already exists on things like blaster sustain toggles.

At the moment, it sounds like that's working as intended. Toggle Suppression only occurs for self and ally-affecting powers - I think a change to how this works, to allow enemy-affecting toggles to function the same way is something more fundamental to change, and is worth a separate thread in of itself: it can't just happen for one power.

On 11/17/2020 at 7:51 AM, WindDemon21 said:

7. Jack Frost: probably my favorite pet, but would be good to have frozen aura mag 3 or frost for more damage. I actually dislike the icicles idea, cause it wakes them up from from flash freeze.

If you're referring to this from my original post:

Quote

Flash Freeze: Ranged (Targeted AoE), Minor DMG(Cold/Lethal), Foe Sleep, Summon Ice Formations

Each affected enemy now summons a fragile, short lived ice formation

Summoned icicles apply -Recharge and -Movement in a small area

Has a small aura of immobilisation and taunt that affects the targeted enemy

Deals minor Cold/Lethal damage to targeted enemy if prematurely destroyed

Can now be slotted with Taunt and Slow enhancements

These changes were not designed to prematurely wake enemies up. As said, this additional damage only occurs if the ice formation is destroyed, and only on the enemy it was trapping (credit goes to @Darkneblade for this!). As such, this will generally only occur if the enemy 'inside' this formation is already awake.

Indeed, this change was primarily made to act as a way of temporarily occupying foes, even if they wake up from the Sleep immediately after, forcing them to waste an attack or two destroying the ice around them. It also functions as a way of hindering stronger enemies for a few moments, with higher levels of protection against status effects.

Hope this clears things up!

November 18, 2020

8 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

All solid points, I hope you don't take my skepticism as an attack. You have obviously thought this out very well. I think lowering to Mag 2 is a good idea. I will admit I didn't think about the benefit to dominators, I like this idea a lot more now that you mentioned that. It gives Ice dominators a reason to choose the power and another way to build domination.

Not at all! I solicit feedback on proposals knowing that it won't always be agreed upon, and that's how they can be refined - of course, if I'm fairly certain about some things, I'll give my reasoning as to why. 🙂

I'll adjust the original post accordingly to lower that magnitude: hearing similar feedback from a few people sounds like it'd be a good move.

8 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

The more I think about this I realize one of the reasons ice has issues with alpha is the fact that flash freeze does damage first then sleeps. That first tick of damage alerts the enemies and allows them to get in an attack before the sleep takes hold. (I could be mistaken but I believe that is how it works). If you remove that upfront damage all together you'd negate any immediate retaliatory alpha strikes. Then those ice formations do damage once they are destroyed (as you said) so you aren't losing any damage just backloading it. You could wake them up yourself with Shiver (assuming you added a minor cold damage component to it) thus creating a decent little combo.

That's right - to my knowledge, all Sleeps that deal damage work this way: they deal damage first, and immediately afterwards apply the status effect to prevent it from breaking. Compare this to Holds, which apply the status effect first, then the damage afterwards.

This small window provides an opportunity for enemies to retaliate, hence the whole 'alpha' situation you're describing. It also leads to some complications with Incarnate Interface DoT procs, which end up waking enemies afterwards - @Zeraphia brought this issue up in this thread.

I'd argue that this isn't working as intended, and ought to be properly fixed rather than get rid of the damage entirely in such powers: Mind Control's Mesmerize for instance is a staple attack that deals a respectable amount of damage with it. Similarly, the damage in Flash Freeze can contribute to adding some damage to Ice Control, especially if you do something like fill it with procs - that's another reason why I kept its effect there: I'm sure there's builds out there that use the power in this way at the moment.

Having Sleeps be undisturbed by any damage immediately following it would probably do the trick, though of course that's easier to say than to implement, I'm sure.

One thing to clarify about the changes to Flash Freeze: the additional damage proposed by @Darkneblade only occurs if the trapped enemy destroys the ice formation, not if it melts by itself. So even if they wake up, it's not guaranteed to go off. Think of it more as a bonus than something meant to go along with the initial damage.

9 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I really like the change to flash freeze you propose, overall it would make the set infinitely more interesting even if you changed nothing else. Sleep attacks are so vanilla as it is. I can only think of one that is useful and unique (Static Field) and this would add another useful/unique sleep power to the game and draw more people to consider Ice Control.

Thanks! Though I'll admit I'd like to improve most Sleep powers in the game (except for the powers that add it in as a bonus rather than as a primary effect). While they are indeed quite versatile, as @Greycat can absolutely attest to, they could do with some additional help, usually depending on the kind of power they originate from.

For instance, Earth Control's Salt Crystals would be a great place to have a similar-ish effect to the one I'm proposing here with Flash Freeze (except for the debuff of course). I've also mentioned Mind Control's Mesmerize/Mass Hypnosis could do with an additional effect before - having enemies sleep on the floor might be interesting, meaning that whenever they wake up, they spend some extra time having to stand up.

Basically: thematic additions to the original status effect that occupy the enemy a little while, even if they prematurely wake up.

November 17, 2020

I'll do you one better: make all attacks, whether from enemies or from players automatically hit.

I'll let the implications of that, and the potential changes the game would have to make as a whole as a result settle in. 😈

November 17, 2020

7 hours ago, Coyote said:

I have to say, that I like the proposed changes to Flash Freeze, mostly in the fact that they're pretty complex and turn it into an interesting power that is a draw to the set.

Consider, otherwise, how rarely Sleep powers are taken. IMO, the details of how the proposed ice formations work, and exactly what controls/debuffs they provide, are necessary in the end to finish the concept, but in the beginning, the first two thoughs should be:

1) make the power interesting

2) make the power worth taking. Right now, Sleeps generally aren't except for Static Field, and that's because it's pulsing. And it's worse on a set that uses a knockdown patch so it pretty much breaks one of its controls with another.

Glad you like the concept of it! It was definitely a bit complicated to explain, but yeah, I figure that most Sleeps ought to have something attached to them rather than just the status effect, usually dependant on the kind of power it originates from.

For instance, I do think it'd make sense for Mind Control's Mesmerize and Mass Hypnosis to make enemies to sleep on the floor, forcing them to stand up after waking up - similarly occupies them for a little while, even if they end up waking soon afterwards.

There's a few things that are a little odd with damaging Sleep powers that ought to be resolved though: their interaction with damaging Interface procs and the fact that they use some odd timing behind the scenes to end up working, which can cause enemies to attack before the status effects come into play. Not sure if the HC team would be interested in looking into that though, given that those kinds of powers are few and far between (Mesmerize and Flash Freeze are the first two that come to mind).

November 17, 2020

13 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

Absolutely! If it can be done I am a fan, just more hoping it could be. 🙂

It definitely seems like it's possible, by the looks of it - some of these recent posts have talked about the proposal, you might find them interesting.

13 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I would say I am on the fence about it because I don't want to swing the pendulum too far and make the set over perform. I think it's weaknesses with alpha were likely intended, given how it shines as the fight rolls on. I do agree that it is too potent a weakness and it needs to be addressed but with this change plus the changes you suggest to flash freeze it may be too effective. Hence why I suggested maybe a -dmg in shiver so that it deadens the blow across the entire spawn who will already be struggling to get out of the ice cubes they are stuck in. They will waste thier alpha to get out of flash freeze and then (especially the minions) do less damage on thier next volley. That is, if arctic air hasn't confused them by then. So, again, on the fence about a 50% mag 3 hold. May be too potent. But still open to the idea. 🙂

As for any dmg added to the set, you can place it in shiver or it can be an added bonus combo affect like gravity has. That would work too.

Hopefully I can reassure you a little - the intention with this proposal here is absolutely to keep Ice Control's -Recharge/-Movement at the forefront. It makes for a fairly unique way of locking down the battlefield, and is indeed very effective in prolonged fights.

However, Ice Control isn't the only control powerset that's similar in this regard: again, Darkness Control's a nice reference. Its -ToHit is quite comparable of a secondary effect, reducing the likelihood of attacks outright hitting, providing prolonged survivability in addition to plenty of ways of locking down the battlefield from the start via Fearsome Stare and Heart of Darkness. Needless to say, Shiver with a chance to Hold along with Flash Freeze don't come close to touching this level of immediate lockdown.

That being said, @Coyote did propose something like lowering the magnitude of Shiver to 2 - that would stop minions, and occasionally lieutenants via Overpower on a Controller. It might even give some incentive for Dominators to take the pick via Domination. I believe @oedipus_tex has talked about Ice Control being generally better on Controllers - this might help balance things out a little, would be interested in your thoughts!

Something to also keep in mind is that Flash Freeze comes in relatively late in Ice Control (18), at levels where other powersets already have tools to immediately lock things down to some degree - Fire Control gets Flashfire (12), Earth Control gets Stalagmites (12), and so on. It's also an AoE Sleep: plenty of utility, but definitely less useful in larger groups where damage can easily break them.

The changes made to Flash Freeze were less in the vein of "stopping alphas" (because it already does that), but "dealing damage and improving utility" - hence why they now summon those ice formations around enemies, forcing them to waste a few attacks on them to break free: it allows for some level of lockdown even if they end up immediately waking up. Combined with the fact that they now deal additional damage if they're prematurely destroyed, it helps to bolster Ice Control's damage capabilities to some degree.

I think combined with adding minor damage to Shiver (along with the fact that there's more places to slot in procs), damage shouldn't be too much of an issue - plus, Gravity Control's fairly unique, focusing on single target damage while forgoing some hard control in the process. I don't think it's too necessary for Ice.

November 17, 2020

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

I had this well written reply to the thread and I accidentally deleted it...:FACEPALM:. So I'm just going to post something short and sweet.

Oh no! I totally understand, I actually write up these longer posts on an external editor to avoid that happening from the start (I started doing that after learning the lesson the hard way). I'll address your points in turn.

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Shiver: The hold in your version should be enhanceable. 6 seconds may seem like too much but it's nothing when up against +4 Purple Con Lts and Bosses.

Yup, per the original post, it already is! It ought to be able to be slotted with Hold and Targeted AoE enhancements...also has the nice bonus of being able to slot a lot of potential procs.

20 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Flash Freeze: I would prefer if the pets dealt Stun instead of a Hold or Sleep but maybe the hold would add much needed damage to the set. If the pets do have holds the caster should be able to slot hold enhancements as long as the power ignores it's hold duration getting strengthened by 100%. I also approve of the Blaster Mag 2 stacking with Mag 1 mention too.

Ah, let me try and elaborate - basically, Flash Freeze's original function stays in place: it still remains an AoE Sleep that does some minor damage. It's everything immediately afterwards where things start to change. Here's a basic rundown.

A fragile ice formation pet is summoned around each hit enemy
This pet does a few things:
- Immobilise and taunt the trapped enemy (so they'll attack it to 'free' themselves if they wake up)
- Slow things in an area around them
- Deal damage to the trapped enemy if it's prematurely destroyed
- Destroy itself after a period of time

Hope this clears things up a little! Credit goes to @Darkneblade for suggesting that last point, it was a neat touch - the main aim of this change was to make Ice Control's Sleep a little more durable, occupying enemies for some time even if they're damaged soon after the original sleep. It even provides a means of hindering enemies with higher magnitude protection levels, if only for a little while.

21 hours ago, Tater Todd said:

Glacier: Great changes but I think the power needs more. It needs the Hail or Bullets Treatment; Glacier should give you +9.75% (Ranged/AOE/Melee) Defense and 19.25% S/L/C Resistance. I agree with Coyote; I skip most AOE Holds unless they are Volcanic Gasses or Shadow Field. They just aren't worth taking.

I think the AoE Holds in general are probably better addressed as a whole, rather than in a specific buff to the powerset, given that it's one of the overarching similarities between all of the powersets - it's why I kept its changes fairly minimal. @SeraphimKensai had a nice thread about that a while back.

At the moment, I definitely view them more as an emergency button for when things get too overwhelming, which I'm okay-ish with so long as the Control powerset has other tools at their disposal. Whether or not that's the intent behind them, I'm not sure.

November 17, 2020

21 minutes ago, Vanden said:

It should be possible, the Oil Slick pet you can attack only spawns the fire patch if something defeats it, not if it despawns on its own.

Oh, perfect! Though is it possible to target said damage to just the enemy previously trapped in that ice formation, out of curiosity?

EDIT: though in retrospect maybe a small AoE would make sense anyhow - main aim here is to not potentially disturb other still-Slept enemies.

November 17, 2020

18 hours ago, Tyrannical said:

All of those examples are feasible, as most things that work for NPCs tend to function the same for players (excluding most task force/trial specific mechanics).

That being said, the less intensive a power is the better, reducing the amount of functions it needs to work is your best shot at making a power viable.

Oh, that's good to hear! Thank you for chiming in - it's hopefully comparable to Carrion Creepers in complexity. The biggest change comes in after the original effect of Flash Freeze, summoning those ice formations, with their relevant powers:

A single target Immobilise/Taunt aura (affects target, to stick them 'inside' the formation)
A -Movement/-Recharge aura (affects area)
Single target damage to trapped enemy if prematurely destroyed
- Maybe just AoE damage with an extremely small radius if former isn't possible?
Self destruct if not prematurely destroyed (without damage)

If it could be simplified further, that'd definitely be pretty neat.

November 16, 2020

20 minutes ago, Tath99 said:

Thanks for the reply.

Indeed, fun is subjective. However as the original poster and the instigator of the criticism you are within your rights to describe your own experience. I think the thread would be better for it.

My own thoughts:

-- Ice Control is low damage. Myself and a friend have tried it and been dissuaded from playing it further as a result. As a set it creates a bad early impression.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set. As you level you gain access to power after power that fails to counter the return alpha strike, as your rightly point out.

-- Ice Control is a soft control set. Personally, this is against my own "power fantasy" of what ice should be. In my mind's eye Wind Control is soft; Ice is hard and unyielding. The power set fails to transition through power tiers, changing from soft effects to hard effects. i.e. It might have been better designed as being a rare set which contains soft AND hard elements.

Oh, there's no need to worry about that! I've expressed my experiences with Ice Control a few times in this thread already. However, for a formal proposal for improving Ice Control, I'll focus on the less subjective components of the powerset, which is reflected in my original post: I detail similar things that you've mentioned yourself - the Ice Control doesn't really have many options to deal additional damage, and that while it excels in handling longer, drawn out fights, it doesn't really have an early way of handling initial enemy attacks.

I think I understand what you mean by the subjective/feel aspect with your last point though: that it isn't a Control powerset that'd appeal to your own personal interpretation of how it should feel to play. Personally, I quite like what Ice Control brings to the table. With Arctic Air up, you're basically a walking field of lockdown, slowing/confusing enemies to a crawl, supplemented with tripping them up using Ice Slick. I see that as a fitting playstyle for Ice Control.

But that's kind of what I mean by trying to keep the whole subjective part out of this proposal - it just ends up going in circles about preferences and the like, instead of looking at actual issues with the powerset, namely the points that were brought up in the original post.

16 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Gravity had an Impact effect added to Propel to shore up its deficiency. Perhaps Ice Control needs something similar?

I'm not so sure - Gravity Control is quite different from the other Control powersets. It starts off with a heavy single target damage focus with Lift and Propel, using knockbacks and knockups as their own 'soft control' to supplement the rest of their arsenal. They also sacrifice some early level control for the damage that they deal, something that Ice Control doesn't really lack outside of their immediate lockdown potential (though that's definitely a glaring issue).

I imagine some of the proposed changes: adding in additional sources of damage via Shiver/alterations to Flash Freeze, and some further places to slot in damage procs would be more than enough. I primarily refer to Darkness Control as a nice example of how to slip in further damage into a fairly control heavy powerset with a decent secondary effect: each power deals fairly minor amounts of damage, but they add up together.

November 16, 2020

14 minutes ago, Piecemeal said:

Plot-wise, Neuron is MIA and Anti-Matter committed seppuku in the Underground. Metronome now runs Anti-Matter's space station.

Didn't Bobcat kill Neuron a while back?

November 16, 2020

4 hours ago, Zepp said:

I was doing some more testing with PowExecLocation. I was wondering if allowing target to have a number (target:-60) is something that would be possible. That would allow people to teleport 60 in front of the target without guestimating, or using two jumps. As is, you can do /bind j PowExecLocation Target Combat Teleport , /bind k PowExecLocation 180:60 Combat Teleport to get in perfect range, but being able to do it in one jump would be a nice way to maintain range with on jump. Additionally, you could allow follow to have a range attached to it (so you tail your subject from range rather than chasing into melee.

As an aside, the option of including "distance" in the targeting reticle might be quite neat to have.

November 15, 2020

5 hours ago, Tath99 said:

Perhaps the question(s) needs to be asked another way:

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use solo?

-- Are there powers in the set which are /not/ FUN to use on a team?

-- Does the set work hard, and effectively but feel like an unsung hero (like Trick Arrow)? Does it fulfil the player's fantasy?

Hey there, thanks for elaborating! I generally try to avoid discussions over "fun", due to how subjective that can be: if you want an example on this, just look at Knockback. 😛

But I can speak for the effectiveness of Ice Control as a whole, which I've detailed in the original post - it excels in long, drawn out fights due to possessing -Recharge/-Movement as a secondary effect. Its main disadvantage comes from not being able to take initial strikes as well as other Control powersets. This is where the change to Shiver comes in, helping to address this, and provide a decent opening power to use on mobs.

Similarly, powers that inflict Sleep on groups of enemies are generally ignored on teams, though they do have their utility. This proposal aims to help rectify Flash Freeze somewhat by providing it with an additional effect: enemies need to break out of the ice that traps them, wasting an attack or two before re-engaging, even if they prematurely wake up. Along with this, it even deals some extra damage if this occurs.

Another general point is the speed at which Ice Control clears enemies compared to other Control powersets - the proposal also attempts to address this by tacking on some minor damage here and there, along with providing more options for Ice Control to slot procs.

Hope this answers your queries to your satisfaction!

November 15, 2020

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

I read through your changes and the flash freeze idea is very creative but may be too complicated to implement? Not sure. If they can pull it off it would be an awesome and welcome change to the set to help mitigate alpha which the set sorely needs. I get that this is a control over time set but that doesn't mean you should HAVE to take a -tohit secondary to have some way to mitigate a mega alpha strike. It's not unreasonable to ask that a controller be able to actually do some controlling before he/she is blasted into the dirt.

Hey there, thanks for your response! I actually toned down my original implementation of Flash Freeze, which would have revamped the Sleep to be resistant to some level of damage. Instead, I looked at currently existing things inside the game to change this power up:

Pets being summoned in the presence of enemies exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
Pets with a limited lifespan also exist. E.g. Plant Control's Carrion Creepers
There are also enemies that deal damage upon being destroyed. E.g. the Sky Raiders' Force Field Generator
Pets with aura powers also exist. E.g. Ice Control's Jack Frost

In other words, all the properties of the proposed Flash Freeze currently exist, to my knowledge - though considering @Tyrannical's thoughts on powerset recycling, I think I might defer to them on what's feasible or not (or if you know any others more versed in powers development, feel free to give them a shout!). You can read more on a potential implementation here:

While it's indeed a decent way of stopping initial strikes, Flash Freeze is only obtainable at level 18, which is a little late, especially compared with the other Control powersets which get similar powers at a lower level (not to mention more potent than a Sleep). And that's where Shiver comes in.

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

On that note, not sure I like shiver as a hold... even a chance for hold. (Though I wouldn't entirely rule it out) What about a big -dmg debuff? Much like the aura in ice armor (Chilling Embrace) but maybe more potent. That way if they do alpha you (or your team) it's for significantly less dmg? This would make sense, too. Though if you made the changes to flash freeze and then this you would effectively neuter any alpha strike which may be swinging the pendulum a bit too far?

Out of curiosity, why aren't you a fan of it? The change to Shiver is primarily based off of Poison's Neurotoxic Breath (which itself is basically Shiver 2.0), which has a low-ish chance to do a weak Hold (25%, Mag 2) - I figured that upping the chance and strength (50%, Mag 3 - considering adjusting the magnitude of that though) would make sense, especially considering it's in a Control powerset's arsenal.

Damage debuffs generally aren't that great against initial attacks, especially when you start to factor in the amount of enemies around that have status effect powers of their own. Plus, Ice Control's recharge debuffs (as a secondary effect to boot) kind of fill in a similar niche already.

Having it be a chance to Hold provides an early way for Ice Control to immediately lock down some enemies for a short period of time: time enough for Arctic Air's Confuse to kick in. Naturally, the chance aspect to it is designed to make Ice keep its -Recharge/-Movement focus compared to the other Control powersets.

As for the level of control that this grants, we can compare it to some other powersets:

Darkness Control = Fearsome Stare (Cone Fear), Heart of Darkness (PBAoE Stun)
Plant Control = Spore Burst (TAoE Sleep), Seeds of Confusion (Cone Confuse)
Earth Control = Salt Crystals (PBAoE Sleep), Stalagmites (TAoE Stun)

I agree with @Solarverse - the AoE Sleeps in general ought to have something a bit extra to them. While they have their applications, they're a little niche. That aside, I'm sort of trying to demonstrate that the other Control powersets generally have a way of dealing with enemy alpha strikes at a lower level, something that Shiver's meant to fill, but less effectively (and to a lesser extent, Flash Freeze).

3 hours ago, th0ughtGun said:

As for adding dmg to the set, I like shiver having a dmg component to it, I'd even be fine with it being moderate level dmg too! Though that may be pushing it.

It makes sense and gives the set a nice AoE hit. I just don't want that to affect the recharge if the power...

I get that controller sets aren't supposed to do a lot of damage but I don't think there is an Ice controller out there that wouldn't respond with "Yeah... But I mean... c'mon man!!".

While I'm not completely well versed with endurance formulas and the like, as a general rule of thumb, the higher the damage, the higher amount of endurance spent to compensate (among a myriad of other things, I imagine). However, as @Bopper has mentioned, minor amounts of damage tacked on to a status-effect inducing power generally don't count towards that.

That being said, I do think that with these proposed additions to what Ice Control is able to slot may have the potential to do plenty more than just the minor additions of damage to Shiver and Flash Freeze. @Coyote has mentioned that allowing Shiver to slot for Hold enhancements means it opens the power up to a lot of damage procs for instance. Even Ice Slick might be able to get in on the fun as a result.

November 15, 2020

4 hours ago, Bopper said:

It would apply to any power. If it's minor and considerred a secondary effect, the endurance cost of the power has secondary effects baked in. It typically is when damage attacks have no secondary effects (DoT's, mezzes, debuffs) is when a recharge reduction (and an accompanied endurance reduction) is provided. Claws is an example of this.

Thanks for the further information! It's definitely helpful - and nice to hear that the adjustments I'm proposing won't mean an adjustment in endurance expenditure. I didn't want to make any changes that'd impact that sort of thing...especially since I'm really not versed with the endurance formulas of the game.

1 hour ago, Tath99 said:

Question: Which of the powers in the set are most apt for a damage buff?

-- Could the Pet be buffed? What if Jack Frost were given [Icicles]?

-- What if Jack Frost if defeated, broke into smaller pets, ala the Devouring Earth?

...which leads on to this. Taking a brief look at the current powers, the actual powers in Ice Control that do deal damage are in line with all the others - for example, all the Holds/AoE Immobilizes/ST Immobilizes generally do the same amount of damage, with Fire and Plant Control being the exception, since they don't have any secondary effects attached to them (though for some reason Plant Control's AoE Immobilize does way more).

Basically, the higher the amount of damage that a power deals, the more endurance it costs, and it looks like this damage/endurance usage is fairly standardised across the Control powersets - I wanted to make the changes sensible, and fitting within the rules currently laid down in-game. I look at Darkness Control as a nice inspiration, which has quite a number of powers that can either deal damage outright, or can be procced out to do so, even though the powers themselves are relatively low damaging (as are most Control powers).

That's the kind of thing I tried to emulate with Ice Control, with the changes to Shiver and Flash Freeze: tack on some additional damage, provide opportunities for procs to function...and perhaps even allow for 'double dipping' due to how Flash Freeze now works, from what @Vanden said (though not sure how powerful that'd be in practice).

Funnily enough, I actually think Jack Frost is one of the best parts of Ice Control - he's a solid pet that also debuffs, and is fairly durable. They even have a -Recharge aura on their own, which stacks with Ice Control's own powers.

November 15, 2020

2 hours ago, Doomguide2005 said:

Changes look interesting. I ran an Ice/Sonic controller on Live. I had two major and related issues. You'd think Sonic Resonance would have helped more in the damage department (for one low damage toon). It didn't and as a result it ate end like crazy trying defeat anything. Teamed I could deal with it, but solo holy nightmare trying to defeat anything.

Glad you like the look of them! I can corroborate with similar experiences. I've played a good amount of Ice Control/Nature Affinity, and a lot of my proposed changes came from my experiences with that combination, especially when compared to other control powersets.

While it was definitely soloable, it was quite comparatively slow - I ended up taking a pool power attack to help substitute its damage - and I usually ended up engaging mobs by opening up with Spore Cloud to reduce their accuracy: helpful, but also a drain on endurance, especially combined with Arctic Air. Once my controls were all established, it was safe as any other Control powerset, if not moreso, with its -Recharge and knockdown...but that "setup" phase is definitely pretty painful, and for relatively little gain.

So that's where Shiver came into play, giving it a chance to Hold, similar to Neurotoxic Breath (still thinking about whether I should bump the magnitude down to 2, but unsure of how useful that'd be), along with the added utility from Flash Freeze - two relatively effective openers that still won't beat the others. And of course, the additional damage attached to both of them might help with Ice Control's slow pace too...especially if people decide to play with the new enhancement proc options, implemented this way.

November 15, 2020

Also going to ping @th0ughtGun for their thoughts on this proposal - hello! Saw you on the HC Discord talking about Ice Control and it being kind of slow at finishing off enemies and the like: while I think that it being somewhat lower in damage potential is kind of by design due to the ability of -Recharge/-Movement to effectively lock down things in prolonged fights, it could do with at least being brought up to comparable levels (if still lower).

Would definitely be interested in seeing your thoughts on these changes to Ice Control - while the main priority is providing the powerset with a way of mitigating alphas to some degree, it does try to address its relatively low damage output as well.

November 15, 2020

Might have also found a bug that @WindDemon21 reported a little while back which sounds like it'd help Ice Control a bit as well:

That definitely sounds like it should be resolved - alongside the intended changes to Shiver, I imagined Flash Freeze to work as a good opener as well. If it ends up causing enemies to attack first, that doesn't sound like it's working as intended.

November 15, 2020

4 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Certainly, it can also open up options where you don't need to take Tactics or slot Kismet. By that, I truly mean "options" and not "replace". Folks will have another choice on how they want to build for accuracy, which is nice

For sure - I definitely do like Combat Teleport's secondary effect, plus it does serve as a counterpoint to the whole "powersets are being homogenised" thing I've been hearing from time to time here.

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