Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Megajoule]

Since this keeps coming up as a suggestion, I thought I'd address it:

Based on what I saw in the "Conundrum" thread, the aggro cap is a global setting.  IT CANNOT BE INCREASED FOR TANKERS ONLY.

 

If I'm wrong, please correct me.  But my understanding is:  this is a universal number, and can't be changed for just one AT.

It'd probably be really nice for Tankers, as some (most?) want to play them, if we could.  But we can't.

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[Captain Powerhouse]

Reading through every post in this thread has been a bit time consuming. Thank you everyone for the feedback, it had been useful.

 

Ill get into more details at some point tomorrow but a few changes are going to be made in the next parch. A few highlights, just to keep the thread from over focusing on those points, is that the +radius on Spheres will be lowered to +60% (cone arcs will remain as they stand,) this means 8ft radius goes up to 12.8, 10ft goes up to 16ft.

 

The damage cap will be changed to 575%, Judgement powers will stop being boosted by this area buff, and stone melee power order will be changed, returning Fault to its old spot. Plus a few other set-specific tweaks.

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[Sura]

2 hours ago, BillyMailman said:

Excellent stuff

Crazy good.  This is really compelling IMO.  

[Haijinx]

Thanks for the effort, Captain PH.

 

Im contemplating a new tank now.

[William Valence]

I'm guessing that means the target cap increase is staying.

[Megajoule]

1 minute ago, William Valence said:

I'm guessing that means the target cap increase is staying.

Considering that (per above) they can't increase the aggro cap (for Tankers alone), what would you prefer?

Edited September 12, 2019 by Megajoule

[Myrmidon]

On 9/10/2019 at 7:58 PM, Profit said:

@Captain Powerhousealmost literally what you did. Except instead of increasing everyone's DPS, that tank DPS increased marginally to compensate for the same thing. And not only that, with the higher cap and a team willing to funnel into the tank, the DPS can increase farther resulting in a higher team DPS overall. So exactly the same thing.

 

I kinda feel like I'm the only one on board with these changes. I got your back CP.

 

You’re not the only one.😁

[Haijinx]

3 minutes ago, Myrmidon said:

 

You’re not the only one.😁

I support these changes also.  Just seems like a lot all at once.  

 

But these will definitely fix the "why even play a tank?" problem. 

 

Also ironically tankers should finally match the original release game manual flavor text.  

 

 

[Myrmidon]

10 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Thanks for the effort, Captain PH.

 

Im contemplating a new tank now.

 

With these types of changes, I’ll certainly have more Tankers than just my lone Tanker Tuesday one (they refuse to even let me join in on a Brute😁).

[Haijinx]

Now im just stuck with what tank do i want lol

 

Too many implications to process 

[Ibarra]

Exceptional stuff so far CP, eager to see these changes implemented. I only have one tanker at the moment but I have been managing to enjoy him nonetheless, course with all this it might give them the resolve they need.

[Cendwar]

8 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Considering that (per above) they can't increase the aggro cap (for Tankers alone), what would you prefer?

I don't think increasing the aggro cap was ever something to focus on. I'm probably gonna get hate for this but I'd rather them keep the target caps as they are (for now). Maybe we can roll out these changes incrementally instead of all at once? Give things a chance to smooth out over time. My fear is that tankers are gonna become the top AoE dps and people are not going to play them for their primary role (tanking). Being able to hit 6 more enemies in AoE is just a crazy dps difference in itself. You start being able to hit (almost if not) every mob in a spawn pack vs only 10 of them.

[Myrmidon]

23 hours ago, Haijinx said:

Dark Armor will be amazing .. 

 

16 foot fear, 16 foot Stun, 16 foot Damage aura.  

 

Pair it with Dark melee for that 20 foot Soul Drain, and buffed Shadow Maul. 

 

Fun. 

Make that 12.8, 12.8 and 16 with the next patch, looks like.

 

 

Even with that, I can still see a DA tanker once again in the near future.

[William Valence]

2 minutes ago, Megajoule said:

Considering that (per above) they can't increase the aggro cap (for Tankers alone), what would you prefer?

 

Second part first. I, and I guess I'm alone in this, don't think that tankers were all that bad. I liked the survivability first aspect. So like I said in the other thread, I'd have liked to see something more akin to making them able to resist special/unresistable damage and dodge autohit damage, but it seems like we're past ideas.

 

As to the first part; a hypothetical.

 

Let's say you were an angry robot, specifically an ass kicking angry robot. You are in a room with a bunch of other robots, and 4 people who's asses you must kick. The rules are simple:

1. You must kick the ass of the first person that pisses you off
2. You must keep track of how angry you are
3. Only 17 robots can kick one person's ass at a time, this is known as the Asskicking_robot_aggro_cap
4. If a new robot starts kicking someones ass and there are already 17 robots there, then the least angry has to stop
5. You must stop when the ass can't keep being kicked

You know how to keep track of how angry you are, and you can check with a dog named attrcur to see if the person you're kicking the ass of the person is healthy enough to keep going. If attrcur says they can't keep going you have to stop. You see that some of the people are better at taking asskickings than others, and you think why not have a dog like attrcur to tell us how much of an asskicking they can handle rather than just have the asskicking_robot_aggro_cap?

 

 

[Haijinx]

So Tanker Claws Shockwave will have a 180 Arc and a 30 foot range, range enhancable with blaster style target cap.  

 

That might be the best thing ever (tm) 

[esotericist]

Other people have mentioned this before, but I would also like to chime in that I believe dropping Bruising in favor of a raw damage increase isn't the right answer. Whether you want to think about it this way or not, Tankers have always been a specific kind of party support, and Bruising contributed to that.

 

Finding a way to make Bruising more pertinent and less painful to apply seems much more appropriate than simply dropping the party support ability entirely.

[ryuplaneswalker]

On 9/10/2019 at 7:30 PM, Leandro said:

Tanker: Ranged damage modifier increased from 0.5 to 0.8, Melee damage modifier increased from 0.8 to 0.95

• Bruise has been removed in favour of a flat damage scale increase

 

This will either hurt Tanks or Brutes, with the -Resistance from Gauntlet Tanks had something unique to bring, an axis to which one is differentiated from the other, now Tank - Brute balance is tied directly into Damage and one will always be superior to the others.

 

On 9/10/2019 at 7:30 PM, Leandro said:

Tanker base endurance has been increased to 120, to reflect the fact that they kill slower, but last longer in combat.

This is a mostly completely pointless change for any Tank except Maybe Dark Armor or Titan Weapons users.

 

On 9/10/2019 at 7:30 PM, Leandro said:

Tanker damage cap to 600%, this would increase the max Tanker damage potential when grouped.

 The Tanking class should have a higher damage cap than the Pure DPS classes? 

 

On 9/10/2019 at 7:30 PM, Leandro said:

AoEs

• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. Most cones are now 10 target cap. Most PBAoE are now 16 target cap.
• Tanker Taunts now have a 10 target cap.
• Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs.

  • As part of their inherent power, tankers get a buff that works similar to Boost Range, but it boosts Radius and Arc of powers.

  • The arc of Cones gets boosted by +100% and the radius of PBAoEs are boosted by +100%.

  • This means a 90 degree cone will actually cover a 180 area, while a 10ft PBAoE will cover 20ft.

  • Almost all cones with over 90 degree arc, or AoE with over a 10ft radius, ignores this buff.

I would be okayish with this change without the damage boosts, being able to hit more targets reliably thus increasing ease of aggro would be a good axis in which to differentiate brutes from tanks.

[Major_Decoy]

I like the endurance change. I'm still low level, my highest tank is a Radiation Armour tank at level 30, but I've been having so many endurance issues leveling tanks from 14 to 30. Enhancements help some, but the increase will also allow me to tank Arachnos disruptors, Stunner Freaks, and various other endurance drains better.

[Sovera]

Though the idea did not have traction I still reiterate that things that would make tankers more valued should be something tanking related. A 30y wide PbAoE that does negative knockback (so, knock-in?) reeling every mob in range that was previously plinking from range would be deeply appreciated by any team when it means all mobs in a pack are balled around the tank and being AoEd down by the team.

[Captain Powerhouse]

6 hours ago, William Valence said:

I'm guessing that means the target cap increase is staying.

Not every power gets the increased target cap right now. The first two Titan weapons cones don’t, nor does Claws Shockwave. Few more powers will have their caps also limited, example: Spine Burst

[summers]

33 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Not every power gets the increased target cap right now. The first two Titan weapons cones don’t, nor does Claws Shockwave. Few more powers will have their caps also limited, example: Spine Burst

 

Will taunt auras get their target caps upped? What will happen, for instance, to Against All Odds or Rise To The Challenge? Will they go up to 16 targets?

[Captain Powerhouse]

They won’t, the cap change only applies to melee sets.

[Red Thorn]

In my opinion, you can't look at Tanks without comparing to both Brutes and Scrappers. Brutes should fall into the middle between Tanks and Scrappers. If Scrapers are a 10 for damage and Tanks are a 5 for damage, then Brutes should fall in around 7.5 (and should never be able to reach 10). If Tanks are a 10 on survivability and scrappers are a 5, then Brutes should fall in around 7.5 (and should never be able to reach 10). If a Tank gets most of its defensive abilities early and scrappers get some of the best late (30+), the Brutes should get them somewhere in the teens to early 20s. Etc. Rinse, repeat.

I'd much rather see the Tanks have their unique tank abilities improved than generic damage boosts. I would, for example, much rather see a Tank have a higher threshold on taunt-aggro than Brutes or Scrappers. So, for example, a Tank can aura-taunt 10 and punch-taunt an addition 5, maybe with a (small) damage boost based on actual taunted numbers. The Brute should be less than that, maybe 5 for an aura-taunt and 5 more with punch-taunt and they get a (small) survivability boost based on actual taunted numbers. The Scrapper should have the lowest numbers of aura-taunt, say 3-4, and punch-taunt of around 1-2, for no more than 5, and maybe something more Scrapper-ish, like a (small) bonus to power recharge and/or endurance recovery. Now, each of these feels different, holds and uses mobs differently, and plays differently in a group. Excellent! 

This allows non-numbers crunchers (like me) to see the value of each... A scrapper is going to provide me with a lot of up-time and damage, but the survivability is much lower (but still better than a ranged or support archetype)-- making me good at solo play but wanting to team for the heals/defenses and crowd control. A tank provides me with a lot of survivability and helpful crowd control when in a group, but my damage is never going to be the best so it will take me longer to wade through things -- making me good at solo content but wanting to team for their damage. A Brute is a happy medium-- I'm a happy medium in damage and crowd control of the melee classes making me good at solo but I want to team for *any* benefit another character provides (more damage, healing/defenses, better crowd control, etc.). Also, people creating teams can really consider what they need for a TF or missions, as if they have a lot of CC or group defense to start, then maybe a brute or scrapper is a better choice but if they have limited or no CC or group defense, then a tank (or two!) is better. Having all three even has upsides for a team!

Right now on live, it feels like you've got two classes that are nearly the same in defensive capabilities and taunting ability (tanks/brutes), with one version doing more damage, or you can pick the other archetype that does the most damage (scrappers) and is slightly lower in survivability. In practical play, there is little difference to survivability and crowd control as I switch between my brutes and tanks, especially as I ease into the 25+ game environment. I only see a difference when I switch from brute/tank to scrapper and back. In my opinion, I should feel a difference (and teammates should too) between a tank, brute, and scrapper and adjust my (their) play accordingly.

Hope this opinion helps the discussion.

[MrAxe]

I'm not liking Psi Blade being switched with Mental Strike in Psi Melee. I suppose I'm in a monoirity with no chance of a switch back? Maybe buff Mental Strike if possible?

 

Maybe (as per Vanden's suggestion) make it so we can choose either tier 1 or 2 at level one?

Edited September 12, 2019 by MrAxe

[nihilii]

8 hours ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

that the +radius on Spheres will be lowered to +60% (cone arcs will remain as they stand,) this means 8ft radius goes up to 12.8, 10ft goes up to 16ft.

Sadface. Completely understandable, though. Still a great buff.