Focused Feedback: Tank Updates

[Vanden]

15 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As part of their inherent power, tankers get a buff that works similar to Boost Range, but it boosts Radius and Arc of powers. The arc of Cones gets boosted by +100% and the radius of PBAoEs are boosted by +100%.

 

This means a 90 degree cone will actually cover a 180 area, while a 10ft PBAoE will cover 20ft.

 

Any power that has more than 90 degree cone, or more than 10ft radius, is immune to this buff.

Question: Foot Stomp's AoE was 15 feet. According to these rules, it should be exempt from these changes. However, the info window is showing the AoE as 10ft. Was Tanker Foot Stomp nerfed specifically to let it take advantage of the new inherent, resulting in an overall buff?

[Captain Powerhouse]

5 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Considering their scale also went up.  I wonder if 600% at 0.95 scale is better than 500% at 1 scale (stalkers) 

 

Seems like it should be 500% tbh.

Stalker damage is not limited by their caps, as criticals are for all purpose damage buffs that don't count toward any cap. When other stalker tricks are accounted for, the stalker has the upper hand. In fact, all other things being equal, stalkers do the highest amount of Single Target damage in the game, in group settings, due to a mix of assassin focus and their team-scaling critical rates.

[Rooks]

1 minute ago, Vanden said:

Question: Foot Stomp's AoE was 15 feet. According to these rules, it should be exempt from these changes. However, the info window is showing the AoE as 10ft. Was Tanker Foot Stomp nerfed specifically to let it take advantage of the new inherent, resulting in an overall buff?

I assume that would be the easiest way for these changes to not be a pseudo-nerf to everything past the threshold

[Captain Powerhouse]

2 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Question: Foot Stomp's AoE was 15 feet. According to these rules, it should be exempt from these changes. However, the info window is showing the AoE as 10ft. Was Tanker Foot Stomp nerfed specifically to let it take advantage of the new inherent, resulting in an overall buff?

Yes. To elaborate: I didnt like the idea that Foot Stomp for tankers would be suddenly the smallest AoE, stuck at 15 when all other PBAoEs started at 16ft.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Captain Powerhouse

[William Valence]

1 hour ago, Leandro said:

• Most Tanker Melee AoE powers have had their target caps increased. Most cones are now 10 target cap. Most PBAoE are now 16 target cap.
• Most Tanker AoE powers now extend to inflict damage and other effects beyond their radius or arcs.

So the primary expectation we can have for Tankers now is damage rather than survivability. I personally think this is a very bad idea, so much so that I'm gobsmacked it's actually being tested. I'm at a fair bit of a loss on this one.

 

1 hour ago, Leandro said:

Is now applied via a global proc. Any single target power that takes accuracy enhancements will trigger an AoE taunt. Every AoE power that takes accuracy enhancements will taunt the enemies it hit.

Does this mean that powers like RTTC or AAO, which do not accept accuracy enhancement, no longer taunt? I'm guessing this also includes non-damaging powers that accept accuracy, such as melt armor or shiver?

[Teirusu]

43 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Increased target caps don’t just mean more damage, it means all your secondary effects hit more enemies. More knockdowns, more -def, more -ToHit, etc. and of course more taunted enemies.

 

I’m paying attention to the notes on level changes, making both powers available at level 1 is not an option, the game has hard coded validations that prevent this, and it would have to be a game wide change, not just for tankers. I understand concerns with themes and being forced to take the elemental weapons, I may look into offering raw melee/weapon free themes for these powers.

 

I honestly wonder how difficult of a coding change this would be to allow people to have 2 power picks from their secondary at the start because, in my humble opinion, I don't really see much of a reason for this is exist anymore.  I recall.. I think it was Back Alley Brawler?  Mentioned that the main reason for this limitation was to make sure that someone didn't skip a key power of their secondary, but that was absolutely years ago.  Lots of things have changed since then.

I'm going to go on a limb and say that today's players are probably a little more intelligent but, if not, it's not like you don't end up getting a bunch of respecs anyway as you level up and alternate builds to play with.  It's even easier to level up a new character then ever before if you make a huge build/character mistake.

 

So, I don't really see much of a reason why we should be forced into taking the T1 secondary power anymore.  Just changing this would give people more build freedom in general and allow builds across ATs to be more similar too.

 

..And, you know, think about all those poor poor Energy/Energy blasters whom have to take Power Thrust when they have a perfectly better option in their primary:  Power Push

 

What about them?  😉

[Haijinx]

Dont think spines/fire brutes and similar builds have any place in a balance discussion.

 

Their popularity has nothing to do with effectiveness of playing the game outside of specific AE farms.

 

They are used to earn in game money.

 

It would be like trying to balance the game around WW speculators, or IO crafters.  

[Captain Powerhouse]

13 minutes ago, ShogunGunshow said:

Does this apply to non-damaging powers like Ice Patch?

It does not apply to pets like Ice Patch or Burn.

[Caulderone]

59 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

I’m paying attention to the notes on level changes, making both powers available at level 1 is not an option, the game has hard coded validations that prevent this, and it would have to be a game wide change, not just for tankers. I understand concerns with themes and being forced to take the elemental weapons, I may look into offering raw melee/weapon free themes for these powers.

Woot!  If I could have Fire Sword be something akin to Scorch and Incinerate, that would ROCK HARD!

 

[Vanden]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

It does not apply to pets like Ice Patch or Burn.

So does the initial pulse of Burn now have more range than the patch?

[ShogunGunshow]

1 minute ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

It does not apply to pets like Ice Patch or Burn.

Lame.

[MunkiLord]

18 minutes ago, Profit said:

I kinda feel like I'm the only one on board with these changes. I got your back CP.

I've played about three tanks a combined 25 or so levels, so I firmly believe my opinion matters less in this discussion. But, I'm on board with these changes too. Enough so that I plan on making a tank assuming these changes make it live. 

[lobster]

Hoo boy.

There's a lot to unpack here, and I won't be able to test anything for a few days :(.

Some off the cuff thoughts:
 

Bruising/target cap/aoe size/inherent:

• I like the idea of targeting the target cap and aoe size as a way to address the brute vs. tank discrepancy.
• Bruising was always kind of silly and hacky (IMHO), I'd love to see it go.  I think maybe solidifying the concept around your target/aoe increase into a new inherent might be a solid way to go thematically.  Now you just need a good name for it.... Magnificence, Glory, Valor, Valorous ??  I dunno I suck at names.   I'll use "Valor" for my examples.
• Honestly this change alone might be enough on its own (maybe with some other additional aspect to fully flesh it out), I would have been fine just testing that.  
• As to that additional aspect...to drive the point and the inherent home.....maybe it's not needed, but I feel like there should be a way to tie it to every skill in the secondary.  Can this bonus be made flexible?  If so, what about a base valor bonus of 50% of current or whatever, and that scales up with each use of a single target power (by some amount corresponding to the base damage formula, or to DPA or something), resetting each time an aoe that does damage  is used?   This would make it a bit more tactical to use as well.  Having an additional bar showing the buff amount like Brute's fury may not be doable, but I think something like this would do a solid job of wrapping it up thematically and making the other attacks and abilities used feel like they are also a part.

Other odds and ends:

• Extra end seems fine, will make slotting tanks much more interesting and flexible than other ATs.  This could also be expressed as a scaling endurance usage reduction buff that is based off the size of the current Valor buff.
• The swap out of AT mods and bruising making damage basically the same just get there differently seems OK...but...I think we could honestly get by without this initially.  The aoe increase and the damage cap increase might be enough on their own.  This might be overkill.
• The T1 swap seems dangerous on a few levels (upsetting people, just forcing a new paradigm, etc.).  Since it sounds like we don't have the tech to do a T1/T2 choice, I'd favor something like my above suggestion to tie the T1 into the new inherent/aoe thing.  Maybe that power gives the biggest Valor boost?  And since it's quick, should be a decent reason to use it....or continue not slotting it as some of us do.
• On a personal level, Fault >>> Tremor (EDIT: I got it confused with Dominator Fissure, sorry!  Fault is great for tanking, but I can see why it would be shifted later under this model), and these should not be swapped.   Maybe leave Fault where it is and swap Tremor->16, BU->28, Hurl->35.   The other swaps seem fine.
• Taunt stuff seems fine

 

Tank vs. Brute

• As a player who loves brutes, I wouldn't cry too hard if their res cap was made 5% lower than tanks - or even somewhere in between, like 88%.  We can start on all sides now as Tanks or Brutes, so there's less reason to make Brutes as good at tanking in teams as Tanks imho.

 

Regen tanks

•  So what if they suck?  Let's do it! 😉

Edited September 11, 2019 by lobster

[Jon]

I'm definitely excited to try these changes out. It seems like these changes are trying to carve an actually unique niche out for Tankers by letting them actually excel at tanking, which is at the very least a step in the right direction.

 

What are the chances of having the aggro cap for Tankers increased?

[Haijinx]

Definitely will shake up some dynamics

 

For example a Electric/Electric tanker is going to be a lot of fun. 

 

16 foot lightning field, 14 foot thunderstrike aoe, 140 degree Jacob's ladder.  

 

 

[Hartanna]

14 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

If anything, I'd argue Kheled tanking capabilities need improvement, it's just something I would not do without first addressing Tankers first.

I would LOVE it if Kheldian tanking was looked at in the future.

 

Even with pure defensive-based IO sets (money being no issue) and full incarnate,
I just don't see the Dwarf worth using besides a little max HP and a taunt.

 

PBs and WS can both hit max resistance cap easily with Perma-Light Form or Perma-Eclipse, respectively.
I know Dwarf doesn't have a crash and it DOES have CC protection, but in-game it's hardly useful in harder content.

 

My Night Widow without any AoE or Elude can eat a gang of 16 +4s with little problem.

My Dwarfs struggles to even survive a mob of 16 +4s for very long, let alone do much damage.

 

As for tank changes, I really appreciate the AoE range increase -- Foot Stomp's radius (and fast cast time) was literally the only reason I keep rolling with Super Strength for tanks. Can't wait to do something new!

Appreciate you guys so much for bringing City of Heroes back and really fixing/updating things for us!

 

[Captain Powerhouse]

4 minutes ago, William Valence said:

So the primary expectation we can have for Tankers now is damage rather than survivability. I personally think this is a very bad idea, so much so that I'm gobsmacked it's actually being tested. I'm at a fair bit of a loss on this one.

This actually means the tanker gets to leverage it's higher suvivability to solo more effectively (and even then, it does not exceed Scrapper/Brute killing potential solo even if you managed to keep a continuous supply of more than 16 enemies.)

 

4 minutes ago, William Valence said:

Does this mean that powers like RTTC or AAO, which do not accept accuracy enhancement, no longer taunt? I'm guessing this also includes non-damaging powers that accept accuracy, such as melt armor or shiver?

Powers like RTTC and AAO still have their Built-in taunt effects. Melt Armor? Check in game and let me know if it's not taunting.

 

[Haijinx]

Just now, Captain Powerhouse said:

This actually means the tanker gets to leverage it's higher suvivability to solo more effectively (and even then, it does not exceed Scrapper/Brute killing potential solo even if you managed to keep a continuous supply of more than 16 enemies.)

 

Powers like RTTC and AAO still have their Built-in taunt effects. Melt Armor? Check in game and let me know if it's not taunting.

 

Will rttc get a 16 foot range now?

[Veracor]

14 minutes ago, William Valence said:

So the primary expectation we can have for Tankers now is damage rather than survivability. I personally think this is a very bad idea, so much so that I'm gobsmacked it's actually being tested. I'm at a fair bit of a loss on this one.

 

I completely agree -- I'm actually flabbergasted these damage changes are even on the table.  The only thing that Tankers needed, in my opinion, was more aggro gathering for the less-AoE powersets and more threat application so that it is harder for others to accidentally flip an AV to hit the league with a giant cone attack.  It is perfectly fine to have damage that is less than average if it means you're better at the role your AT is named after, like Controllers and Defenders.  It's the whole reason for the class system!

 

Like, I agree that some of the powersets could use cone/radius buffs to bring them up to the level of others, but all this is going to do is make everyone roll Tankers for damage, and that kind of makes me mad because I rolled a Tanker to tank.

Edited September 11, 2019 by Veracor

[dignition]

1 hour ago, MechaMarshmallow said:

My own playing around with ideas of how to buff tanks led me to the thought of their bruising being replaced with a proc that would radiate buffs and supportive effects to teammates as the tanker attacked, inspiring them to fight harder as they lead the charge into battle in a passive thematic with characters like Superman who the tanker is designed after. It could effectively increase team damage without putting the tanker themselves into a more damaging brute-like role.

I really like this idea. Tankers jump into the fray first and that courage inspires their teammates to fight alongside them. They're often the ones with the game plan, calling the shots and coordinating attacks. Teammates know who to hit first and concentrate their damage corresponding perfectly with in-game buffs. Maybe it could be something that helps a lot at the beginning of a fight but tapers off until the tanker is out of combat again (similar to the recent targeting drone changes: not attacking or being attacked for X seconds). This would mean the first enemy group would go down fast and the tanker can focus on the next one, causing the entire group to be more efficient. This would be a sort of "battle charge" that inspires the team to act as a single unit.

[Captain Powerhouse]

13 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Woot!  If I could have Fire Sword be something akin to Scorch and Incinerate, that would ROCK HARD!

 

No, that would be Stone Melee. 🤪

[Vanden]

9 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

Powers like RTTC and AAO still have their Built-in taunt effects.

Isn't this going to make those powers noticeably worse at holding aggro compared to damage auras?

[Seph]

12 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

This actually means the tanker gets to leverage it's higher suvivability to solo more effectively (and even then, it does not exceed Scrapper/Brute killing potential solo even if you managed to keep a continuous supply of more than 16 enemies.)

 

Powers like RTTC and AAO still have their Built-in taunt effects. Melt Armor? Check in game and let me know if it's not taunting.

The increased damage cap does not help with soloing though, reaching that on a tanker requires outside buffs. I think the 600% is too excessive.

[HelenCarnate]

On my Rad/Fire Brute I normally clear the ComiCon map in around 4 min.  Sometimes less, sometimes more but that is pretty normal.  If the stars align and everything wanders into the same area and I don't have to clean up spawns I can get down to around 3:30.  With these changes, I made an identical Fire/Rad tank (apart from the ATOs) and averages around 3:30 even with cleaning up mob spawns and sub optimal placement of the helper.  I just did 5 runs but all were right around that time with one being 3:45 where everyone was spread out and no lore pet and one being at 3:13 when I had only 1 extra spawn to clean up.

[Captain Powerhouse]

18 minutes ago, lobster said:

As to that additional aspect...to drive the point and the inherent home.....maybe it's not needed, but I feel like there should be a way to tie it to every skill in the secondary.  Can this bonus be made flexible?  If so, what about a base valor bonus of 50% of current or whatever, and that scales up with each use of a single target power (by some amount corresponding to the base damage formula, or to DPA or something), resetting each time an aoe that does damage  is used?   This would make it a bit more tactical to use as well.  Having an additional bar showing the buff amount like Brute's fury may not be doable, but I think something like this would do a solid job of wrapping it up thematically and making the other attacks and abilities used feel like they are also a part.

I considered giving tankers a red bar that would fill as they get aggro/attacked, but that would had honestly changed too much the current flavor of the tanker, and make them feel way too brute-ish. Like i mentioned before, i dont want the feel of the tanker to change, or force, any new behavior.