Some Tweaks to Give Trick Arrow a Point

[DougGraves]

Improving Trick Arrow

Trick Arrow is at the bottom usage for controllers and corruptors and just above traps for defenders.  It needs to be better.

 

Trick Arrow has 3 main issues: it is terrible at the start, it has no heal (self or otherwise), and it is very active making it hard to use with your other powerset. Trick Arrow has 3 basic advantages: it is more accurate than other sets, it has a single target hold, it has good high level powers.

 

I am assuming that making changes to a set go in order of ease: tweaking the exiting power, porting over a power from another set, creating a new power.  And re-ordering powers or changing powers impacts current characters so it should be avoided if possible.  So while I would propose replacing Entangling Arrow with a heal, either Triage Beacon or Alkaloid, these proposals just tweak the existing powers.

 

The changes are to 3 lower level powers to make them more useful and make the set better for soloing especially at lower levels.

 

Entangling Arrow

This immobilizes and does negligible -recharge.  It is essentially useless and is required for controllers and corruptors.  

- Give this power a mag 1 hold (enough to hold a minion and stacked with Ice Arrow to hold a boss) and damage over time equal to Stone Prison. This gives the power actual control/damage mitigation and the damage makes this great for soloing.

 

Flash Arrow

This gives reduced perception and a -5% to hit debuff for 60 seconds.  The to hit debuff is negligible out of the box.  Stealth is nice but not important at low levels when you get this.

- Change the to hit debuff to -10%.  

 

 

Ice Arrow

This is a single target hold. 

- Give this power the same damage as Block of Ice.  The damage makes this great for soloing.

[MetaVileTerror]

Not only is Trick Arrow a little . . . *extends hand and wobbles it a bit* . . . but Tactical Arrow basically demonstrates everything about Trick Arrow that needs improvement.

If not flat improvements, how about at least investigating some improvements that increase over level.  Such as the To-Hit Debuff in Flash Arrow starting at the present value, and improving by a further +10% (unenhanceable) by level 50.

[Haijinx]

I am not sure about the improvements listed, but Trick Arrow definitely needs buffed. 

 

 

[Leogunner]

Back on the live forums, I made a suggestion to improve Trick Arrow that was more in-line with the set's "collaborative effects" similar to Oilslick Arrow + Energy/Fire damage producing an effect.

 

One was using Flash Arrow on a target that is frozen in Ice (either Ice Arrow or Block of Ice/Glacier) has an additional -ToHit or a low mag stun or something.

 

Another was using Poison Gas Arrow with any kind of area fire or explosive power (Energy AoEs, Fire AoEs, Explosive Arrow, damaging Grenades) which would cause PGA to apply itself a 2nd time in a wider area (basically dispersing the gas in a wider area via explosives).

 

Something cool might me making Entangling Arrow do an AoE check (very close, like 5ft around its target) for any foes that are also hit with Glue, web or net based controls (not that many...just Web Grenade, Glue Arrow, Web Envelope, Web Cocoon and Entangling Arrow itself...I guess Bola's from Utility Belt power pool if that's every introduced) and if it makes a positive check, both targets are held.  

 

I had other ideas in the same vein but it's been a while.  Basically, I think it'd be more fun for TA to be the SURPRISE! set that gets you different performance depending on how you combine your powers or collab with teammate's powers.

[MetaVileTerror]

Very good point, Leogunner.  Wombo-combo'ing would make the set rather interesting . . . though the question becomes; would Trick Arrowists be able to wombo their friends' combos, or should these mechanics only work for the original user?  A combination therein, based on the particular effect?

[TheAdjustor]

6 minutes ago, Leogunner said:

Back on the live forums, I made a suggestion to improve Trick Arrow that was more in-line with the set's "collaborative effects" similar to Oilslick Arrow + Energy/Fire damage producing an effect.

 

One was using Flash Arrow on a target that is frozen in Ice (either Ice Arrow or Block of Ice/Glacier) has an additional -ToHit or a low mag stun or something.

 

Another was using Poison Gas Arrow with any kind of area fire or explosive power (Energy AoEs, Fire AoEs, Explosive Arrow, damaging Grenades) which would cause PGA to apply itself a 2nd time in a wider area (basically dispersing the gas in a wider area via explosives).

 

Something cool might me making Entangling Arrow do an AoE check (very close, like 5ft around its target) for any foes that are also hit with Glue, web or net based controls (not that many...just Web Grenade, Glue Arrow, Web Envelope, Web Cocoon and Entangling Arrow itself...I guess Bola's from Utility Belt power pool if that's every introduced) and if it makes a positive check, both targets are held.  

 

I had other ideas in the same vein but it's been a while.  Basically, I think it'd be more fun for TA to be the SURPRISE! set that gets you different performance depending on how you combine your powers or collab with teammate's powers.

I like the idea but I have to ask have the Oil Slick pseudopet / set on fire issues ever been resolved ? If they haven't putting in more things with similar problems looks problematic.

[biostem]

I'm currently leveling up a ninja/TA MM.  She's level 38 ATM.  Here are some suggestions I have, (in no particular order):

 

1. I would have flash arrow deal some minor energy damage, so you can set off oil slick arrow while staying within the set.

 

2. Change "disruption arrow" to "bioelectric arrow", which, in addition to the -res to enemies, applies a recovery and regen buff to allies.

 

3. I like the OP's idea of giving entangling arrow a mag 1 hold.  EDIT:  It would need to be mag 2 to hold minions in 1 shot, IIRC).

 

4. Give ice arrow an effect where, upon breaking free, enemies around the target take minor ice damage and are also slowed.

 

5. Add a debuff to an ignited oil slick arrow, where enemies can spread a fire DoT to other nearby enemies as well.

 

Cheers!

Edited October 3, 2019 by biostem

[Leogunner]

32 minutes ago, TheAdjustor said:

I like the idea but I have to ask have the Oil Slick pseudopet / set on fire issues ever been resolved ? If they haven't putting in more things with similar problems looks problematic.

I haven't played TA on Homecoming yet so not sure about that.

 

The PGA idea would definitely require a pseudopet as it would need to summon the pet at the location and trigger a larger AoE PGA upon destruction.

 

The other ideas would likely be granted powers that'd have to be added to other powers and then the proper TA arrow would check for that granted power on the target and trigger an additional effect.  I think Kinetic Melee's Power Siphon does this where attacks will grant +dmg if Power Siphon is present on the user.

 

If pseudopets are still clunky, one might think of other creative work-arounds that could simulate a kind of "synergy" mechanic to make TA unique.

[Redlynne]

57 minutes ago, biostem said:

1. I would have flash arrow deal some minor energy damage, so you can set off oil slick arrow while staying within the set.

Can't do that and keep the aggro-less aspect of the power.  You don't want aggro on this power in exchange for a tiny amount of damage.

Seriously, if you need to light an Oil Slick simply take either the Taser or Amulet origin powers from the P2W vendor, which is adequate for getting the job done.

[biostem]

3 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

Can't do that and keep the aggro-less aspect of the power.  You don't want aggro on this power in exchange for a tiny amount of damage.

Seriously, if you need to light an Oil Slick simply take either the Taser or Amulet origin powers from the P2W vendor, which is adequate for getting the job done.

Hmm... good point.  Maybe make "entangling arrow" into "electric net arrow", like I think they did for the tactical arrow secondary that blasters can take.

[Leogunner]

2 hours ago, MetaVileTerror said:

Very good point, Leogunner.  Wombo-combo'ing would make the set rather interesting . . . though the question becomes; would Trick Arrowists be able to wombo their friends' combos, or should these mechanics only work for the original user?  A combination therein, based on the particular effect?

I think it wouldn't be too tough to extend it to any combo'ing circumstance within the purview of powers we have to choose from.

 

For example, the "Ice Block" circumstance is limited to any power that has a similar effect to Block of Ice.  There's actually quite a few powers for that (Block of Ice, Glacier, Ice Arrow, Suppressive Fire w/ Cryo Ammo, Freeze Ray, Bitter Freeze Ray, Cryo Freeze Ray, Freezing Touch and technically Hibernate but the enemy would have to be using this) but you'd only have to add a "mode change" to those 8 powers then add to Flash Arrow a check for this mode so it can trigger a different effect.

 

The question would be, what kind of synergies would help the set...the above having an additional -12% ToHit could be quite beneficial and easy for the set to initiate alone but could benefit from quicker execution if organized by a teammate (pretty easy to find the guy in a crowd stuck in a block of ice).  In the past, people made suggestions to give the set healing or ally buffs but I don't think the set is meant for buffing.  It's always been a control, debuff and damage supplementary support set.

 

By apologies for railroading the discussion with a past idea of mine.  Reading about helping TA just sparked that memory and it made me smile.  The synergy concept would likely require much more work than just tweaking numbers on the powers.

[DougGraves]

It would be great to have an arrow in the set that set the oil slick on fire.

[Bossk_Hogg]

TA is in a weird spot in that it's currently kind of"crappy Radiation". It's a debuff set that isn't terribly good at debuffing until the mid 20's. Most of it's powers only do one thing, and they can't really be enhanced to do the stuff you might want more of (or aren't worth it). The recharge on its powers is such that you can't reliably use the tricks each spawn without major slotting or global recharge.

 

a TA defender, throwing out Flash Arrow, Disruption Arrow, Poison Gas Arrow and Acid Arrow debuffs

To-Hit debuff 6.25%

Damage debuff 31.25%

Defense debuff 25%

Damage Resistance debuff 40%

 

A radiation Defender, with just Enervating Field and Radiation Emission debuffs the following

To-Hit debuff 31.25%

Damage debuff 25%

Defense debuff 31.25%

Damage Resistance debuff 30%

 

TA does have more Damage and Damage Resistance debuffs, but only marginally in the case of damage debuff.  Rad has a huge advantage in to-hit, which helps teams stay alive in the formative levels, and a slight advantage in defense debuffing. TA also requires 4 powers to do what Rad does in 2, and those powers aren't automatically available in the next spawn. More egregiously, it has no -regen, considered key for AV fights, and no -special. It does have Oil Slick arrow (3 minute timer), which, while VERY badass, isn't enough to overcome the set's general shortcomings.

 

TA originally had two advantages over Rad, in that Rad's toggles would drop if they got mezzed or the target died. With toggle effects now lingering on the corpse, TA has lost one of those. I think it is time to lower the recharge of many powers, and look at other ways to boost the set. The problem is finding ways to buff it to benefit it more as a support set, as hard control increases the value for controllers, and damage is the wrong way to focus. And while the idea of having a bunch of combos with the powers sounds intriguing, the set has always been fire and forget, so adding a bunch of interactive complexity like Bio armor seems like it may change the set too much for existing players.

 

Entangling Arrow becomes "Marking Arrow". Recharges goes up to 15 seconds and now also gives a team wide damage/to hit buff (10% to-hit, 20% damage) in addition to the immobilize. I know some debuff purists will bristle, but honestly limiting the set to debuffs only puts it into too small a niche, as there are only so much debuffs to go around. It's also an ability to help teaming in early levels

 

Flash Arrow should go up to 10% to-hit debuff, and add in a -range component.

 

Glue Arrow drops to 45 second recharge to match Tac Arrow's, and the -recharge rises to 40% from 20%.

 

Ice Arrow creates a smallish (8' radius maybe?) ice patch around the target. This will also help with early mitigation, and on bosses that the hold doesn't affect.

 

The above changes should shore up the support the set provides in early level, as well as increase the value of slotting to-hit debuff in Flash and create a new opportunity for To-Hit buff slotting in Marking Arrow.

 

For later levels, I suggest the following:

Poison Gas Arrow - add a -Special component, something few other sets have.

Acid Arrow  - add the much needed -regen (400%)

Disruption Arrow - Add a -HP component, enhanceable with Healing IO's. Currently I think only the Degenerative incarnate ability provides this, so it is also something unique for TA. Also a small energy damage to allow for in-set lighting of oil slick and proc goodness.  

EMP - remove the -recovery debuff the hold places on you. I assume the blaster AE holds will be nerfed at some point as hinted at, otherwise the recharge time needs to drop.

[Zepp]

Honestly, the only two "problem" powers are flash arrow (which needs a little fire damage so it can be used with oil slick), and glue arrow (which needs to be replaced. -Regen would be nice, but it is fine without that.

[biostem]

18 hours ago, Zepp said:

Honestly, the only two "problem" powers are flash arrow (which needs a little fire damage so it can be used with oil slick), and glue arrow (which needs to be replaced. -Regen would be nice, but it is fine without that.

As someone else pointed out to me, flash arrow cannot deal damage, otherwise it would remove the "no aggro" effect of the power.  I say make entangling arrow into electric net arrow, like blasters get for tactical arrow, thereby addressing that issue.

 

As for glue arrow - maybe it could be changed into some sort of toxic/bio-sludge arrow, that in addition to the slow effects, it could impart -regen.  Maybe also add a toxic DoT to boot.

[Zepp]

15 hours ago, biostem said:

As someone else pointed out to me, flash arrow cannot deal damage, otherwise it would remove the "no aggro" effect of the power.  I say make entangling arrow into electric net arrow, like blasters get for tactical arrow, thereby addressing that issue.

 

As for glue arrow - maybe it could be changed into some sort of toxic/bio-sludge arrow, that in addition to the slow effects, it could impart -regen.  Maybe also add a toxic DoT to boot.

I was aware of that issue with flash arrow. I did not think that the current functionality could justify keeping it as is. However, I just looked and it seems to be a fairly popular power. As such, perhaps it does not need the drastic change of adding fire damage. That being said, perhaps upping the -ToHit would make it more appealing without a drastic change. And as you said, adding a touch of fire damage to one of the other arrows within the set (maybe a very very small amount of fire/energy damage to entangling arrow to allow the ignition of oil slick without requiring you to get fire damage from another player or another set.

[roleki]

I would really like to see TA become a set that other players can fathom WHY anyone would bother playing it. It's a painfully laborious set to solo with, and on teams its debuffs are pretty much outclassed by scrappers and brutes who are also killing mobs 70x faster than my TA.  

 

That said, I don't know that I would want to see the set "overhauled" per se.  I like that it is kind of a jack-of-all-trades, master-of-none set.   If they could tweak the set to be more effective at the things it does, I would be a happy camper.

 

Maybe that would come in the form of a progressive AoE Build Up effect tied to animation/cast time of powers in the tree?

 

Or maybe they could slap some ridiculous procs/autohits into the tree, like say, Flash Arrow still does -ToHit, but it also floors Defense/Resistance in the AoE for three pulses of 3s spread over 10s? 

 

Or maybe give the various powers complementary effects that stack, like say if the target is hit by Glue Arrow or Ice Arrow, then debuffs from DA or PGA are doubled in magnitude or duration, and so on.

 

I dunno, I just want to T4 my Ice/TA wothout clawing my eyes out.

 

 

[Bunmaster]

An healing arrow would be nice. But i am sure it took an arrow to the knee.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Yeah, when you run the numbers vs radiation (itself not even that big of a heavy anymore thanks to power creep), the only thing TA really can claim it does better is "have oil slick arrow".

 

No buffs, no heals, long recharge, and overall weaker debuffs. It burns endurance like crazy and spends a ton of animation time to accomplish rather little. If it wasn't bow related, it would be played even less. But some people defend it's poor performance cuz archers gonna arch. 

[Bossk_Hogg]

On 10/5/2019 at 7:19 AM, Zepp said:

I was aware of that issue with flash arrow. I did not think that the current functionality could justify keeping it as is. However, I just looked and it seems to be a fairly popular power. As such, perhaps it does not need the drastic change of adding fire damage. That being said, perhaps upping the -ToHit would make it more appealing without a drastic change. And as you said, adding a touch of fire damage to one of the other arrows within the set (maybe a very very small amount of fire/energy damage to entangling arrow to allow the ignition of oil slick without requiring you to get fire damage from another player or another set.

Flash Arrow is only "popular" in that you don't really have much better options, so it's the best of a bad lot. Most anyone who can skip Entangling Arrow does. Among corrupters, who are forced into Entangling Arrow, Flash only has a 67% pick rate, the second lowest selection rate of any of the T2's. It's a weak power by any metric. Outside of like 2-3 fights in the entire game, who the hell solo pulls?

 

Putting the fire damage in entangling arrow is a bad call, as that requires you to target the oil slick arrow. Putting it in disruption arrow at least lets you fire it off and light automatically thanks to the AE nature. 

Edited October 9, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Redlynne]

Trick Arrow ... vs ... Tactical Arrow

 

 

 

Accuracy is the same.

Animation time is the same @ 1s.

Endurance cost is the same @ 5.2.

Range is the same @ 80 ft.

Recharge Time is the same @ 4s.

Immobilize MAG is the same @ 3 but the duration is modified by Archetype modifiers (working as designed).

-Recharge debuffing and -Speed debuffing is modified by Archetype modifiers (working as designed).

 

The only difference is that the Tactical Arrow version adds an Energy Damage over Time ... which is EXACTLY what you'd need to light up an Oil Slick(!).

 

 

 

All that is "needed" to go about "fixing" Entangling Arrow in Trick Arrow can be found in the already working code.  A simple copy/paste from Electrified Net Arrow to overwrite Entangling Arrow and you'd "solve" the problem(s) with Entangling Arrow.

 

S imple.

E asy.

E ffective.

 

... not being done (yet) ...

[Bossk_Hogg]

That doesnt really fix it though. It's bad because it's a single target immob, not because it deals no damage. Even if they added damage, it would be less than the blaster version, just further [pushing Trick Arrow as "crappy tac arrow". And you have to target the slick, wasting animation time and endurance. Putting the damage in Disruption Arrow avoids all that, and actually lets disruption arrow take sets.

 

If you really want to be depressed, check out the difference between the EMP Arrow and ESD Arrow. Trick Arrow's is on a 300 second cooldown and shuts off your *own* recovery. Tac Arrow's is on a 90 second cooldown and doesn't debuff you. 

 

 

Edited October 10, 2019 by Bossk_Hogg

[Shadowsleuth]

It would be cool if the immobilize effect on the electrified net arrow could arc to nearby enemies, immobilizing them as well.

 

So even if you use it to ignite the oil slick, you could still catch some nearby enemies too.

[Redlynne]

8 hours ago, Shadowsleuth said:

It would be cool if the immobilize effect on the electrified net arrow could arc to nearby enemies, immobilizing them as well.

 

So even if you use it to ignite the oil slick, you could still catch some nearby enemies too.

So basically a Jolting Chain sort of thing where the "electrified" portion of the attack does damage and a MAG 2 Immobilize and can chain to up to ... what ... 2 additional $Targets?  Meanwhile, the main entangling "net" portion of the attack does no damage (just like the Trick Arrow version) and has another MAG 2 Immobilize that only hits the (deliberately) attacked "main" $Target, for a combined MAG 4 Immobilize on the "main" $Target?

[Shadowsleuth]

I was thinking that the damage would stay on the main target & a  non-damage (or minor damage) electric fence (similar to the Controller/Blaster electric fence) immobilize would arc & catch one or two nearby enemies.

 

It would keep them from running up & attacking the player & it also avoids the frustration of having to chase down a runner.

 

They would stay put until the player has a chance to deal with them.