Rage (yup again)

[Galaxy Brain]

You can have too much tohit. Past a certain point it really doesnt matter for the vast, vast majority of content. Complaining about added tohit is like complaining that SR can hit 60% def. For most content that is 15% wasted outside very niche scenarios.

 

 

 

 

[Razor Cure]

6 hours ago, Vanden said:

Any melee AT can grab Focused Accuracy.

Nitpick..but again, Foc Acc IS now accuracy. Also, Corrs can get it to I think.

Also, if any toon can build for ToHit with Tact/Kismet..why does keeping this double stacked Rage matter so much.

Also, sets like Ice and SR, ignoring slow and -def, is hardly the same thing. Since only some attacks do slow/-def..but EVERY single attack we use, has a to hit check.

[Haijinx]

37 minutes ago, Razor Cure said:

Nitpick..but again, Foc Acc IS now accuracy. Also, Corrs can get it to I think.

Also, if any toon can build for ToHit with Tact/Kismet..why does keeping this double stacked Rage matter so much.

Also, sets like Ice and SR, ignoring slow and -def, is hardly the same thing. Since only some attacks do slow/-def..but EVERY single attack we use, has a to hit check.

I don't think its a nitpick

 

The reason it was changed Accuracy is the same reason.

 

Because people were able to get too much +To Hit.

 

[Vanden]

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Nitpick..but again, Foc Acc IS now accuracy. Also, Corrs can get it to I think.

Focused Accuracy still gives ToHit.

 

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Also, if any toon can build for ToHit with Tact/Kismet..why does keeping this double stacked Rage matter so much.

If any character can take Aid Self and build for Defense soft cap to use it in combat, why does having self heals like Reconstruction or Healing Flames matter so much?

 

5 hours ago, Razor Cure said:

Also, sets like Ice and SR, ignoring slow and -def, is hardly the same thing. Since only some attacks do slow/-def..but EVERY single attack we use, has a to hit check.

You're right, it's actually much stronger. Because a cascade defense failure or all your powers not recharging while you can't run away will kill you very quickly, while you can still run away while under severe tohit debuffs.

[Lazarus]

On 11/13/2019 at 10:04 AM, Captain Powerhouse said:

I thought to start a new thread on this myself but might as well just post here:

 

I mentioned this on beta, but the crash avoidance mechanic has been rolled back and wont be going through. SS is going back to the drawing table. There are many issues with SS and Rage. Its extremely powerful solo [even with the nasty crash, IMO] but a weak base of damage and heavy reliance on self-damage-buffing means in groups the set can suffer, since they end up having a lower damage ceiling.

 

I don't have any numbers to share just yet, but my plan is to keep Rage a long duration click that stacks, however, it will be weakened in strength in exchange of having nearly every single power in the set improved enough for the set to remain competitive. All Rage crashes would, of course, be removed.

If I can make a suggestion. KEEP IT SIMPLE

 

 So something like this

      RAGE

      Recharge: 240 seconds

      Duration: 90 seconds

      Buff: +10% To Hit, Damage +80%

      after 90 seconds leave target exhausted -30% endurance,-30% recharge. for 10 seconds

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Lazarus

[Bopper]

7 minutes ago, Lazarus said:

If I can make a suggestion. KEEP IT SIMPLE

 

 So something like this

      RAGE

      Recharge: 240 seconds

      Duration: 90 seconds

      Buff: +10% To Hit, Damage +80%

      after 90 seconds leave target exhausted -30% endurance,-30% recharge. for 10 seconds

 

I like the idea of keeping it simple and possibly weakening the rage buff by 25%. I do like an endurance crash though, similar to Hasten.

 

If the power was 240s base recharge, +15% tohit for 120s, +60% damage for 120s, and -36 endurance crash after 120s, that would seem fair. You still have risk of double stacking as it could result in double crashing.

 

The crash makes it a fairly expensive endurance toggle essentially (0.3/sec). Double stacked makes it 0.6/sec. If we want it to be more punishing, maybe throw in a small irresistible recovery debuff, suck as -20% recovery for 10 seconds. It makes it a non-benign crash that is not too difficult to mitigate.

[DR_Mechano]

On 11/13/2019 at 3:04 PM, Captain Powerhouse said:

I thought to start a new thread on this myself but might as well just post here:

 

I mentioned this on beta, but the crash avoidance mechanic has been rolled back and wont be going through. SS is going back to the drawing table. There are many issues with SS and Rage. Its extremely powerful solo [even with the nasty crash, IMO] but a weak base of damage and heavy reliance on self-damage-buffing means in groups the set can suffer, since they end up having a lower damage ceiling.

 

I don't have any numbers to share just yet, but my plan is to keep Rage a long duration click that stacks, however, it will be weakened in strength in exchange of having nearly every single power in the set improved enough for the set to remain competitive. All Rage crashes would, of course, be removed.

Yeah now THIS is something I can get behind, make the entire set less reliant on Rage by increasing the damage of the powers, I'll definitely take that.

[Vindicator]

[deleted]

Edited September 8, 2020 by Vindicator

[Thezanman]

On 11/13/2019 at 2:28 PM, Hyperstrike said:

Not just no. 

---> HELL NO! <---

 

Don't you feel being able to run +70% Recharge all the time to be a little bit OP?
You don't base changes to powers in the game on "feels".

You base it on DATA.

Here's some data for you. Aim, the power based on giving a massive spike in accuracy for a very short duration, gives 50% ToHit for 10 seconds, on a 90 second recharge. Rage gives you 40%, PERMANENTLY.

[Vanden]

26 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

Here's some data for you. Aim, the power based on giving a massive spike in accuracy for a very short duration, gives 50% ToHit for 10 seconds, on a 90 second recharge. Rage gives you 40%, PERMANENTLY.

Based on the fact that you Liked every post in this thread calling Rage OP, gave a "Confused" (the closest this forum has to a "Dislike") to every post calling it not OP, and gave some extremely biased data comparing Rage and Aim (the numbers you gave are for Rage with 200% recharge and Aim with 0%, and made no mention of the different contexts the powers exist in), I'd say you are very much trying to balance the power based on "feels."

[Thezanman]

16 minutes ago, Vanden said:

Based on the fact that you Liked every post in this thread calling Rage OP, gave a "Confused" (the closest this forum has to a "Dislike") to every post calling it not OP, and gave some extremely biased data comparing Rage and Aim (the numbers you gave are for Rage with 200% recharge and Aim with 0%, and made no mention of the different contexts the powers exist in), I'd say you are very much trying to balance the power based on "feels."

Thanks for telling me what my argument is, I guess, instead of looking at the data. Sounds like you're also trying to balance the game with feels. It's not like Aim having a 22.5 second recharge with 10 second duration while Rage is permanent makes my argument any different.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Thezanman

[Rimerat]

I have shelved my SS characters because the unavoidable -def in the rage crash made the builds I run with them unfun.

 

I hope this gets addressed soon as a result. I also hope that some variation of the rage crash remains; having to play around the -damage was kind of fun, though maybe it's just nostalgia. Please get rid of unavoidable defense debuff.

[Rimerat]

To expand, I'm not sure why rage was tweaked to begin with.

 

Why is SS being looked at when we have powersets like Kinetics that makes 95% of the content in the game a joke?

[Bopper]

4 minutes ago, buttbaron said:

To expand, I'm not sure why rage was tweaked to begin with.

Rage wasn't tweaked per se, it was fixed so that it worked as intended. There wasn't supposed to be an ability to avoid the crash, double stacking which prevented the crash was a bug. The bug got fixed. That's all.

 

56 minutes ago, Thezanman said:

Here's some data for you. Aim, the power based on giving a massive spike in accuracy for a very short duration, gives 50% ToHit for 10 seconds, on a 90 second recharge. Rage gives you 40%, PERMANENTLY.

Do you mean build up that gives +20% to hit?

 

29 minutes ago, Vanden said:

 (the numbers you gave are for Rage with 200% recharge and Aim with 0%, and made no mention of the different contexts the powers exist in)

That is a good point, but wanted to correct the numbers you gave. It is +0% recharge for Aim (Buildup?) and +300% recharge for Rage. Or in other words, 100% total vs. 400% total. Your point is still valid, just that you're actually making a stronger point.

 

---

Finally, if we are comparing the capability of Buildup and Rage, it's worth factoring in the Gaussian Proc. It will typically fire 90% of the time (unless you're slotting a ton of recharge in Buildup), thus you will get its benefits (for 5.75 seconds per proc?) 2-3x as often as when casting rage.

 

Just some food for thought in a discussion that is ultimately pretty silly. Let sets be unique, dont need each set to be vanilla. It's not like there's an outcry for  Soul Drain needing to be nerfed, and that power does damage with no crash for a set less commonly resisted and has potential for reaching +28% (30%?) tohit before enhancements. 

[Vanden]

40 minutes ago, Bopper said:

That is a good point, but wanted to correct the numbers you gave. It is +0% recharge for Aim (Buildup?) and +300% recharge for Rage. Or in other words, 100% total vs. 400% total. Your point is still valid, just that you're actually making a stronger point.

You're right, that's my bad. At that amount of +Recharge, Aim should recharge in 22.5 seconds.

[nihilii]

On 11/13/2019 at 11:45 PM, Vanden said:

Only one set can ignore slows. Only one set can ignore defense debuffs. Are they OP?

From where I stand, several flaws in that logic.

1) Armor powersets aren't damage powersets. If Fire Melee ignored defense debuffs and if Rad Melee ignored slows, I'd argue both sets would be OP.

2)  "Immunity to X" isn't equal in strength to "immunity to Y" by virtue of being "immunity". One has to consider how common the "immunity" is. Rage trivializes slotting for Accuracy, enemy defense buffs and tohit debuffs... Essentially takes an entire cornerstone mechanic out of the game. Being immune to a specific type of debuff doesn't really have the same reach.

[Infinitum]

On 11/13/2019 at 7:09 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

You can have too much tohit. Past a certain point it really doesnt matter for the vast, vast majority of content. Complaining about added tohit is like complaining that SR can hit 60% def. For most content that is 15% wasted outside very niche scenarios.

 

 

 

 

Heh, do the last mission in the dream doctors arc and say that.

[Infinitum]

On 11/14/2019 at 3:27 AM, Razor Cure said:

Nitpick..but again, Foc Acc IS now accuracy. Also, Corrs can get it to I think.

Also, if any toon can build for ToHit with Tact/Kismet..why does keeping this double stacked Rage matter so much.

Also, sets like Ice and SR, ignoring slow and -def, is hardly the same thing. Since only some attacks do slow/-def..but EVERY single attack we use, has a to hit check.

Hang on a sec, does focused accuracy still do to hit debuff resistance too?

[Vanden]

1 hour ago, nihilii said:

From where I stand, several flaws in that logic.

1) Armor powersets aren't damage powersets. If Fire Melee ignored defense debuffs and if Rad Melee ignored slows, I'd argue both sets would be OP.

2)  "Immunity to X" isn't equal in strength to "immunity to Y" by virtue of being "immunity". One has to consider how common the "immunity" is. Rage trivializes slotting for Accuracy, enemy defense buffs and tohit debuffs... Essentially takes an entire cornerstone mechanic out of the game. Being immune to a specific type of debuff doesn't really have the same reach.

Rage does not give "immunity" to ToHit debuffs, nor does it trivialize slotting for accuracy. It just helps. As we've pointed out in this thread, double Rage is not something you get easily, it requires an enormous investment in +Recharge to have for any significant amount of time. So if you're thinking that access to Rage means +40 ToHit all the time, you're not examining a typical situation for the average Rage user. Most of the time for most players it's +20 ToHit. +20 tohit is easily overcome and then some by tohit debuffing enemies, and it's not enough to hit the chance to hit cap on even a +1 enemy, so Accuracy slotting is still needed.

Edited November 15, 2019 by Vanden

[Thezanman]

1 hour ago, Infinitum said:

Hang on a sec, does focused accuracy still do to hit debuff resistance too?

Yes.

[Thezanman]

2 hours ago, Bopper said:

Do you mean build up that gives +20% to hit?

No, Aim, it's in Blaster Primary sets.

[Haijinx]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

Rage does not give "immunity" to ToHit debuffs, nor does it trivialize slotting for accuracy. It just helps. As we've pointed out in this thread, double Rage is not something you get easily, it requires an enormous investment in +Recharge to have for any significant amount of time. So if you're thinking that access to Rage means +40 ToHit all the time, you're not examining a typical situation for the average Rage user. Most of the time for most players it's +20 ToHit. +20 tohit is easily overcome and then some by tohit debuffing enemies, and it's not enough to hit the chance to hit cap on even a +1 enemy, so Accuracy slotting is still needed.

I agree single rage to hit is at least a sane amount. 

 

It doesn't take away from the fact that the goal for SS builds is to get double rage up for as long as possible. 

 

So the +40 is an issue.

 

[Vanden]

2 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

It doesn't take away from the fact that the goal for SS builds is to get double rage up for as long as possible. 

You're making a lot of assumptions about what Super Strength players want. Double Rage means dealing with constant endurance, damage, and defense crashes. It's a huge pain for the player, and not everyone wants to deal with it. And besides, what happens if they manage to get double Rage all the time? Their chance to hit will be 95%. Do you think someone who puts as much effort into any other build as it takes to get 200-300 recharge on Rage isn't also going to end up with 95% chance to hit?

[Haijinx]

7 minutes ago, Vanden said:

You're making a lot of assumptions about what Super Strength players want. Double Rage means dealing with constant endurance, damage, and defense crashes. It's a huge pain for the player, and not everyone wants to deal with it. And besides, what happens if they manage to get double Rage all the time? Their chance to hit will be 95%. Do you think someone who puts as much effort into any other build as it takes to get 200-300 recharge on Rage isn't also going to end up with 95% chance to hit?

They aren't doing it for the to hit, they are doing it for damage.  Double Rage changes SS from a mid range set to one of the best sets. 

 

The to hit is a bonus. 

 

That's how this line of discussion started.  You didn't want the to hit touched when the damage is looked at.

 

And are we really going to play both sides of the "too hit" is/isn't an advantage again?

 

It obviously is or you wouldn't want to keep it.  Its enough of an advantage to argue for keeping it even though its an outlier.   

[Haijinx]

Also the aim comparison isn't needed, since you can't get aim on Tanks and Brutes.

 

Compare it to Build Up instead.   Which can't hit the same value, nor anywhere near the same uptime.

 

Or follow up / Soul Drain which have to hit first.