How do you guys justify your MM versus superheroes/supervillains?

[Caide]

With the demon/robots/undead MM i can sort of see how, demons are magically enhanced beings, robots have super high tech weaponry and undead are magical beings like demons but of dark magic.

Thugs? How do you guys think thugs would fare against "lets use an example" Golden Palm, the first hero you face on villain side. Golden Palm is a hero with invulnerability and super strength, wouldnt he just punch the hell out of your common henchmen and then smash you down?

Mercenaries? Same scenario, they are just glorified soldiers.

Beasts? Same scenario, they are common wild animals a super punch would kill a mutt instantly.

Ninjas? Same scenario, they are just humans who are athletic and wield swords, a super punch again would realistically kill them 1 blow.

Im having a hard time sticking with my MM because it seems like my character isnt really "super" so why am I beating supermen, makes me want to just re-roll a generic "superhero" but I really like MM gameplay, idk....im weird.

[Erydanus]

You just need to come up with better origin concepts. Is your character Natural? Is he "just" the best tactician ever and he talked some people into working for him as flunkies? If that's the case though your character is automatically a supreme specimen like Batman and your power is TRAINING OTHERS. That's formiddable. You can't assume demons are magic and robots are tech. Look at the clockwork, they're mutant origin. Why?

Spoiler

Because the clockwork king has a funky kind of telekinesis and he's animating them all like puppets in case you forgot.

 

And you can't do that either?

 

Is your origin magic? My beast mastermind is magical. He's a forest ranger who's dabbled in dark sorcery. These aren't common wolves he's running around with (not like the Dire Wolf is a normal animal anyway) they're spirits of the forest at my command. You can't even kill them - you can only dissipate them for a moment before I resummon them. HA!

 

My thugs? Ex-hellions, at least the arsonist. Maybe they're skulls or outcasts. Anyway, with my Magical origin, they're under the control of a vampire with dark magical powers so they're strengthened by my blooood.

 

"Common" Mercenaries? you mean ex-Malta agents or maybe they're Council or Arachnos I don't really care they work for me and they can get as good as they give. My tech origin gives me access to supertoxins and combat drugs that are probably illegal in most countries but the results show themselves.

 

I could explain the ninjas, but then they'd have to kill you.  😉

[biostem]

It's the same way you can justify your level 1 character taking repeated gunshot wounds and not being disabled/killed immediately.

 

Soldiers:  High-end armor and training

 

Ninja: They're just that good at dodging

 

Beasts: They are enchanted or super-agile

 

Other possible "outs" is that your pets aren't actually all the powerful, but you have lots and lots of reinforcements to replace your losses.  Maybe your henchmen aren't real at all, but manifestations of your psyche/holograms/cleverly disguised robots.

 

How do you rationalize that regular Malta soldiers can stand toe-to-toe with heroes in that level range?

[Caide]

Well for me in particular my favorite villain is The Joker, so I tried to recreate a character like that (Natural Mastermind with Thug henchmen and Devices). Only problem is the thugs you use early on are only punks who wield basic handguns and you yourself wield dual pistols. 

How am I beating superpowered heroes/villains with a pair of basic handguns? How are my henchmen hurting them with basic bullets shot from there basic handguns?

Arsonist I can sort of understand with them being ex-hellions or just fire in general hurting. The brutes/bruisers work because they are super enhanced on drugs.

Enforcers and Punks are where I cant think of anything. Punks use 2 handguns and enforcers use machine guns right? Uzi's? Both are just basic run of the mill street level guns how can I spin it that my punks and me can hurt supers with our pistols and bullets? 

 

[plainguy]

Yea your assumption for example with Beast is that they are just normal animals..  None of my Pets are.. 

 

[Riverdusk]

1 hour ago, Erydanus said:

 These aren't common wolves he's running around with (not like the Dire Wolf is a normal animal anyway) they're spirits of the forest at my command. You can't even kill them - you can only dissipate them for a moment before I resummon them. HA!

 

 

My Dire Wolf is just like a regular wolf, but dire.....so it is extra tough. 

[Nyghtmaire]

*Stolen Crey bio enhancements

*fancy anti-super equipment, special bullets, swords crafted of enchanted metal, armor woven with alien technology (clearly not ninjas - everything hurts them)

*magical spells woven around minions

*genetic modification

*deal with a Demon

*ninjas/thugs/beasts/mercs = poorly played ATS in need of a good team leader

 

And on and on and on ....

 

This is all imagination. Player generated.

[TheSpiritFox]

2 hours ago, Caide said:

With the demon/robots/undead MM i can sort of see how, demons are magically enhanced beings, robots have super high tech weaponry and undead are magical beings like demons but of dark magic.

Thugs? How do you guys think thugs would fare against "lets use an example" Golden Palm, the first hero you face on villain side. Golden Palm is a hero with invulnerability and super strength, wouldnt he just punch the hell out of your common henchmen and then smash you down?

Mercenaries? Same scenario, they are just glorified soldiers.

Beasts? Same scenario, they are common wild animals a super punch would kill a mutt instantly.

Ninjas? Same scenario, they are just humans who are athletic and wield swords, a super punch again would realistically kill them 1 blow.

Im having a hard time sticking with my MM because it seems like my character isnt really "super" so why am I beating supermen, makes me want to just re-roll a generic "superhero" but I really like MM gameplay, idk....im weird.

The minions are only half the build concept. My thugs/time is named Jim Bob Duggar and he uses the light of God to manipulate time and protect himself and his up to 26 sons. It's really all about how you wanna see it. But I mean, yes this game is ridiculous. Do you really think that like IRL a WILLPOWER tanker could take more damage than an invulnerable scrapper? But that's how the game works. If you need your suspension of disbelief I can understand that, but it's not something most people have an issue with. 

 

 

 

 

[SmalltalkJava]

One version of my “Skunk Man” hero is a Thugs- Poison MM.   His henchmen are old friends of his who decided that they couldn’t let him stand up against injustice all by himself.   They all have their own specialties.   
 

the Bruiser is Leon. Who happens to be his oldest and closest friend.   
 

Crazy Eddie is his next oldest friend who happens to have a penchant for fire.   
 

if things get really hairy then they put the call out to the neighborhood and the entire neighborhood comes out to help. 
 

Justice isn’t always sweet.  Sometimes it’s rather musky.  

Edited November 21, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Mercurias]

Ninjas: Ninja Magic/Enchantments

 

Thugs: Escaped human test subjects, possessing enhanced physical coordination and endurance which allows for unorthodox and unexpected tactics.

 

Commandos: Elite soldiers possessing equipment made with cutting-edge technology. After all, any good mastermind would make sure their henchmen have a few hunks of kryptonite if standing up to Superman.

 

Beasts: Creatures of the fey lands, or perhaps normal animals being possessed by ancient spirits. You could even go the experimentation route again and say that they were liberated or bred by the Mastermind.

[Haijinx]

Same way a Street Justice scrapper can beat down Lord Recluse?

[Caide]

So I think I found my "in" so to speak. My character recruited ex-hellions and ex-skulls the same way joker recruited deranged/mentally unstable people, by exploiting their faults, using evil charisma and sweet talking.

Due to being a villain my character gets weapons and ammo shipments from arachnos quartermasters most of which being Impervium (city of heroes version of strongest metal) munitions.

So me and my punks/enforcers use high caliber Impervium bullets in our guns that can penetrate super heroes invulnerability and armor while my arsonist sets them ablaze and my drug enhanced bruisers pummels them to death with his enhanced strength.

Seems logical right?

[Crysis]

12 hours ago, Caide said:

With the demon/robots/undead MM i can sort of see how, demons are magically enhanced beings, robots have super high tech weaponry and undead are magical beings like demons but of dark magic.

Thugs? How do you guys think thugs would fare against "lets use an example" Golden Palm, the first hero you face on villain side. Golden Palm is a hero with invulnerability and super strength, wouldnt he just punch the hell out of your common henchmen and then smash you down?

Mercenaries? Same scenario, they are just glorified soldiers.

Beasts? Same scenario, they are common wild animals a super punch would kill a mutt instantly.

Ninjas? Same scenario, they are just humans who are athletic and wield swords, a super punch again would realistically kill them 1 blow.

Im having a hard time sticking with my MM because it seems like my character isnt really "super" so why am I beating supermen, makes me want to just re-roll a generic "superhero" but I really like MM gameplay, idk....im weird.

Somebody has never seen “Kick Ass 2” have they?

 

A team of Vigilantes isn’t much different than a team of Thugs.  It’s all in the intent.

Regardless, I tend to not view my henchies as additional players.  I view them as non-durable weapons.  Use them till they wear out than summon more.  In fact, I saw a MM the other day named “Excessive Turnover” and I cracked up at their bio.  Basically they were a Human Resources exec gone Vigilante and would just burn through their employees.  I will admit that MM themes for Thugs and Merc’s, to me anyways, work best if you don’t try to take things TOO seriously.  Bots, Demons, Ninja’s, Beasts....you can come up with serious toned themes easily, everything from Johnny Socko to coven witches.  But for Thugs and Mercs I tend to go ultra caricature of the “evil villain” or the “hapless vigilante” route.

[SmalltalkJava]

Mercs MM named “Cannon Fodder”.  Just send in troops until the supply runs out.  
 

on another note. Think of team Batman.  Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Oracle, Batwoman.  No actual superpowers just brains, training and money.  
 

heck if you wanted too you could act like a Green Lantern character and your henchmen are just power manifestations.  You can color the summoning color and upgrade effects color.     You can’t of course use Green Lantern but you could have the  “Chartreuse Nipple Ring Corps”.

that concept  could apply to all pet sets.   

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by SmalltalkJava

[Nyghtmaire]

1 hour ago, SmalltalkJava said:

You can’t of course use Green Lantern but you could have the  “Chartreuse Nipple Ring Corps”.

that concept  could apply to all pet sets.   

 

I’d die to see that in a bio!

[SmalltalkJava]

1 minute ago, Nyghtmaire said:

I’d die to see that in a bio!

Chartreuse would be a good color.   It is between yellow and green.   So it covers Green’s Will and Yellows Fear.    Perfect for the new Corp

[Hedgefund]

The easy answer for me is that it's me, the actual MM that buffs up the henchies or debuffs the enemies so that the otherwise underpowered minions can do their thing.  That's not just RP, that's actually how the game works.

[Clave Dark 5]

My latest MM is Capt Sam's Space Zoo, which is a Beast of course.  He's also a bubbler, so there you go, problem solved.

 

But now all your MMs have to be bubblers.

 

(I will also note that "normal animals" are not necessarily as fragile as people are.  And those "normal soldiers" get to fire their guns at Golden Palm a lot before he gets close, too.)

[Caide]

6 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

My latest MM is Capt Sam's Space Zoo, which is a Beast of course.  He's also a bubbler, so there you go, problem solved.

 

But now all your MMs have to be bubblers.

 

(I will also note that "normal animals" are not necessarily as fragile as people are.  And those "normal soldiers" get to fire their guns at Golden Palm a lot before he gets close, too.)

Unless the guns have special bullets then its pointless, I mean come on we all seen superman ( a Inv/SS same as Golden Palm ) and what happens when a thug tries to shoot a pistol at him. The bullets literally ricochets off his chest.

Thankfully I found a sort of head cannon that might work in that my character uses Impervium munitions which is the strongest metal in CoH so a Inv/SS like Golden Palm can tank a few shots but eventually he will die/fall if he takes too many.

Edited November 22, 2019 by Caide

[Clave Dark 5]

10 minutes ago, Caide said:

Unless the guns have special bullets then its pointless, I mean come on we all seen superman ( a Inv/SS same as Golden Palm ) and what happens when a thug tries to shoot a pistol at him. The bullets literally ricochets off his chest.

Thankfully I found a sort of head cannon that might work in that my character uses Impervium munitions which is the strongest metal in CoH so a Inv/SS like Golden Palm can tank a few shots but eventually he will die/fall if he takes too many.

Not every damn hero is Superman, there's Batman and Spider-Man, for one, both of them could be hurt by guns.

[Caide]

25 minutes ago, Clave Dark 5 said:

Not every damn hero is Superman, there's Batman and Spider-Man, for one, both of them could be hurt by guns.

True but for the sake of this thread in my original comment I asked how players would justify certain mastermind mobs vs Golden Palm a hero with the powers of invulnerability and super strength. Its easy enough to explain vs a normal mortal-like villain or hero like say sister psyche or fire wire because they dont have the invulnerability factor.

For a thugs mastermind the henchmen cant be magic or enhanced to me because the "punks" use pistols to fight not beams/blasts, so I was looking for a way that would make sense how me and my punks with pistols could take down a invulnerability/SS hero like Golden Palm, to which I came up with impervium bullets.

[Mopery]

My main MM is Thugs/Kin on Excelsior named Godfather.

 

He's a crime lord average ordinary businessman, a real good fella, nothing to see here... by the way he thinks it would be a real shame if something happened to your property, or your family. You understand. That's not a threat or nothing, what he just said is completely legal and on the up and up. He wants nothing from you. Nothing. *wink* You have an understanding with him though, I can tell...

 

Seriously though, The Godfather has hired a loyal bunch of career criminals as his personal bodyguards and enforcers. These guys have spent most of their lives in and out of prison, lifting weights and learning dirty fighting moves, all the while working for his family and organization. They can spot someone's weaknesses at a glance. Plus they have no problem using the drugs he supplies them with: steroids, stimulants, pain killers, prototype Crey chemicals, you name it they'll try it.

 

How do you think they move so fast(Speed boost aka- Crack)? Why do they seem like unstoppable killing machines(meth, PCP)? You hit them and shoot them with energy, bullets, swords, electricity, and they don't even seem to  feel pain(morphine)? They also work really well together, almost as if they've been personally trained by him(Leadership, Supremacy, IO sets /procs). When the AI acts dumb and they run off by themselves and get killed, well that's an easy explanation also: victims of their vices, they lost their minds and did something stupid. Whatever, thugs in Paragon City and the Rogue Ises are a dime-a-dozen and he's got plenty to buy their loyalty with. Loyalty is SO important to him.

 

Of course, it also helps that he's got an army of disposable young thugs eager to make a name for themselves at his beck and call(Gang War), more than you could possibly imagine(Burnout + Gang War again) and he gives them all the strength they'll ever need(Fulcrum Shift + SB + ID) to take on anyone in this world or from some other world, doesn't matter much to them.

 

So any heroes out there thinking of bringing The Godfather to justice, well, you and what army? As you can see, his army is just itching for a fight...

[Nyghtmaire]

9 hours ago, Caide said:

True but for the sake of this thread in my original comment I asked how players would justify certain mastermind mobs vs Golden Palm a hero with the powers of invulnerability and super strength. 

Clearly, Golden Palm runs an SO only build and has not reached softcap. 😝

[Obsidius]

Agreed that it's all in the concept.

 

My bots/ traps MM is a technical genius with plans to make his robots work so well that they'll eventually be able to take over the jobs of fallible Arachnos soldiers who are susceptible to fatigue, bribery, etc. Sooner or later he'll take Black Scorpion's place at Lord Recluse's side and command the Arachnos army (room for robot RP Arachnos Epic AT), make an army of Archnos soldier bots... and maybe overthrow Recluse himself.

 

The MM himself is there to support and monitor his creations... and maybe throw a few shots in himself. Of course, tripping up enemies with gas grenades, acid mortars, and caltrops, and somoning a shield generator, never hurt his odds of winning. Some might say it offers the robots an unfair advantage, but it's all in the sake of winning the fight against state enemies and using every advantage at his disposal.

 

(Really, I'm just using the same concept I had on the old Triumph server, but it's such a great thread that I had to use it again.)

[Haijinx]

My thugs mastermind concept is just a gang member.  

 

So no one involved  has any super powers. 

 

No one in COH is as powerful as Superman 

 

Plus there's a lot of super tech out there.