Give Sentinels Defiance?

[Lazarillo]

No, not current Defiance, but the "classic" form: health drops, damage goes up.  Had the idea come while chatting with some TF-mates last night.  Old school Blasters couldn't really make use of Defiance because they could really drop their health...incrementally, shall we say.  Sentinels, however, are a horse of a different color.  With their defensive sets, they might be able to ride that line a little easier, sacrificing some of their safety for additional damage (an "Offensive Opportunity", one might say?).

 

[SeraphimKensai]

The issue with that though, is though if you build a sentinel well, often times it's HP hardly moves. Either Softcapped Defense or Absorb mechanics.

 

What I almost think would be a cool inherent opportunity for them would be a Reflect Damage-esque power (kinda like T'Challas new suit in the Black Panther movie), so that as the Sentinel gets attacked, they get a stacking buff, that they can expend via a blast that deals bonus damage based on how many stacks of the buff they had on them.

 

 

[Lines]

1 hour ago, SeraphimKensai said:

The issue with that though, is though if you build a sentinel well, often times it's HP hardly moves. Either Softcapped Defense or Absorb mechanics.

 

What I almost think would be a cool inherent opportunity for them would be a Reflect Damage-esque power (kinda like T'Challas new suit in the Black Panther movie), so that as the Sentinel gets attacked, they get a stacking buff, that they can expend via a blast that deals bonus damage based on how many stacks of the buff they had on them.

 

 

I know the design goal is for Sentinels to be sustained DPS rather than burst, but this would be pretty sweet.

 

Opportunity definitely needs another look at. I say this as a Sentinel main. I totally ignore the mechanic.

[Chris24601]

17 minutes ago, Lines said:

I know the design goal is for Sentinels to be sustained DPS rather than burst, but this would be pretty sweet.

A damage buff based on steady incoming damage actually would be pretty good for a sustained damage concept though because it requires building and maintaining the stacks to keep your damage up... rather like an inverted brute.

 

That’s a solid sustained damage mechanic vs. build-up (the quintessential burst mechanic).

[Saiyajinzoningen]

the only problem i have with opportunity is that its locked into the 1st 2 powers. i honestly love my sent, more dmg would of course be welcome but otherwise this AT is gravy

[SeraphimKensai]

Perhaps any attack could benefit from the Reflective Damage Bonus?

[Vanden]

I think the issue here is that Defiance 1.0 sucked and everyone who had it back then hated it.

[Haijinx]

19 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think the issue here is that Defiance 1.0 sucked and everyone who had it back then hated it.

Not everyone.  That's why we get occasional threads nostalgiacising it.

[Mystic_Cross]

6 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think the issue here is that Defiance 1.0 sucked and everyone who had it back then hated it.

Not “everyone” hated it. In fact, there used to be several threads in the old forums dedicated to bringing it back... even up until sunset.

I loved it myself, but you probably could have guessed that. A low health blaster with defiance 1.0 and SO’s was crazy exciting and fun to play.

 

Its subsequent removal was, IMO, the start of removing all challenge from the game.

[Mystic_Cross]

3 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Not everyone.  That's why we get occasional threads nostalgiacising it.

lol somebody beat me to it

[Bossk_Hogg]

Give sents a toggle inherent. Outside of the toggle, single target attacks cause the targeting reticle and the entire team gets the benefit of offensive opportunity (damage increase against that target). In defensive mode, the entire team gets the benefit of defensive opportunity (heal and endurance). Maybe add a mag 1-2 taunt on single target attacks in defensive mode to help stop runners or peel things off squishies.

 

Then give them about a 15-20% damage boost. 

[Mystic_Cross]

2 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

No, not current Defiance, but the "classic" form: health drops, damage goes up.  Had the idea come while chatting with some TF-mates last night.  Old school Blasters couldn't really make use of Defiance because they could really drop their health...incrementally, shall we say.  Sentinels, however, are a horse of a different color.  With their defensive sets, they might be able to ride that line a little easier, sacrificing some of their safety for additional damage (an "Offensive Opportunity", one might say?).

 

Sounds like an interesting idea. I haven’t rolled a sentinel yet, but if this were to happen I most definitely would sooner than later.

[Outrider_01]

10 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I think the issue here is that Defiance 1.0 sucked and everyone who had it back then hated it.

Confirmed. 

 

Revolving door hitpoint moving up and down is useless when you are fighting to stay up right. 

• Pop a heal, gone. 
• Direct single target heal, gone. 
• Splash aura and Dark/Kin heals, gone.
• Staying at range, no buff.
• Not over aggroing, no buff.
• Defiance? Bad name, we called it Grim Reaper Salad Tossing or Cuddle Buddies with a creepy skinny dude in a dirty black bathrobe.
  • AKA, Grim is coming  and you have to get very friendly with him to prevent him from collecting your soul.
• Defiant? Over what exactly...hit point bar? Getting up from a rez cause we face planted, like that is "continuing to fight the good fight"
  • LOADING PLEASE WAIT, "Hi Favorite (Insert Nurse), thanks for keeping the bed ready"

Back then there was no IO bonus sets to defense, popping at least 3 purples for defense when you couldn't carry enough, 4 second animation time on Full Auto meaning you were in attack line of sight for retaliation for far to long (LOADING PLEASE WAIT). I can't even think of any more reasons.

 

It was useless, I don't care if some people could get a whole lot of use out it or liked riding the edge cause it was enjoyable.  It had to be useful to everybody, some couldn't adapt or others quickly learned to use it...majority of blasters preferred to be alive at full to cause mayhem and destruction.  Living the edge with the Reaper like Thelma and Louise or Bonnie and Clyde, no thank you.

 

As for Sentinels, you got to much resist or defense to make use of it.  You won't be low enough in hitpoints, regen and maybe will power would benefit more provide you didn't build up positional defense.  Something like modified but similar Vigilance or Kheldian group inherent would make more sense or a critical "DEAD SHOT!" like scrappers, maybe something like Domination that provides a buff at a click.

[Galaxy Brain]

Issue with old defiance wasn't the concept of being hurt = you deal more damage, but rather the scaling meant you didn't get that big a boost unless you were practically dead. A scale that say, maxes under 1/2 HP would be better.

[Lazarillo]

33 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

As for Sentinels, you got to much resist or defense to make use of it.  You won't be low enough in hitpoints, regen and maybe will power would benefit more provide you didn't build up positional defense. 

Hmmm, this raises a fair point (and yeah, I'm aware people didn't like the old Defiance, but I was pontificating on whether that was maybe due more to the nature of the AT and how, as noted, there were no tools for dealing with the incoming damage).

 

Alternatively, though, maybe it could work based on overall damage taken and not HP levels per se?  Something like Nega-Pendragon's "rage" mechanic in the Magisterium Trial?

Or would that just be too much like Fury?

[Haijinx]

This proposal would be pretty uneven though.

 

For example, An SR sent will almost never be in the red.  But when they are, they can just live in the red for long periods.  They might be able to toggle dance to have low hp all the time.

 

A WP or Regen sent will just regen back green before getting much help. Though maybe if you timed it so you took the alpha then nuked, then regened ...

 

Fire I guess would be in a good spot since you could time healing flames.  But if you timed wrong .. ROTP

 

 

 

 

[AgentForest]

One of the passive ideas I had for Sentinels would be a "Divert Power" mechanic built into the durability moves.

Every defensive toggle power gives you, say, 25% bonus damage passively, but turning the power on lowers your damage by the same amount.  Defensive clickable moves like Reconstruction passively give you maybe 10% damage, but when activated drop it by the same amount for the duration of its effects (not stacking, just replacing the old debuff if recast before the debuffed damage wears off).  Defensive passive moves aren't affected.  Essentially, the goal would be that your damage is pretty much the same as it is now, but if you choose to turn off a move that helps you stay alive, you divert that power to your attacks, becoming stronger.  The downside being that using all of your defensive moves at once lowers your damage output a bit.

This would help make some strategy to their gameplay, and give them decisions they can make based on the situation.  Busting out your emergency survival skills would help keep you alive, but at the cost of damage output.  However, a character with tons of toggles could turn them all off for immense damage output, then put them back on when enemies start attacking them.

Obviously such a passive would mean some tweaks around the edges on power sets, like how Invulnerability has a +Def +ToHit toggle, and that's both offensive and defensive.  That move could be changed to provide the +ToHit as a passive once you purchase the power, rather than as part of the toggle, just so you can turn it off for more damage and still maintain the +ToHit effect.

I feel like this fulfills a similar goal to the "Defiance" mechanic from the old days, in that there's a risk-reward feel to it, without having to get your health low.  The risk comes in deciding which powers you "can do without right now" to maximize damage potential.

Edited January 23, 2020 by AgentForest

[SeraphimKensai]

9 hours ago, AgentForest said:

One of the passive ideas I had for Sentinels would be a "Divert Power" mechanic built into the durability moves.

It's an interesting idea, but I have an issue with it in that you're rewarded for not using your secondary, so you end up being left with half a character if you want to do more damage.

[Myrmidon]

20 hours ago, Lazarillo said:

No, not current Defiance, but the "classic" form: health drops, damage goes up.  Had the idea come while chatting with some TF-mates last night.  Old school Blasters couldn't really make use of Defiance because they could really drop their health...incrementally, shall we say.  Sentinels, however, are a horse of a different color.  With their defensive sets, they might be able to ride that line a little easier, sacrificing some of their safety for additional damage (an "Offensive Opportunity", one might say?).

 

Been playing Regen Sentinels, have we?🤣

Edited January 23, 2020 by Myrmidon

[nihilii]

18 hours ago, Saiyajinzoningen said:

the only problem i have with opportunity is that its locked into the 1st 2 powers. i honestly love my sent, more dmg would of course be welcome but otherwise this AT is gravy

Hear, hear.

Let Opportunity activate from any attack and/or combine Offensive and Defensive and/or let the reticle move from target to target during Opportunity's duration.

It'd fix any performance issue with Sentinels that isn't powerset specific. IMHO

[Myrmidon]

18 hours ago, Bossk_Hogg said:

Give sents a toggle inherent. Outside of the toggle, single target attacks cause the targeting reticle and the entire team gets the benefit of offensive opportunity (damage increase against that target). In defensive mode, the entire team gets the benefit of defensive opportunity (heal and endurance). Maybe add a mag 1-2 taunt on single target attacks in defensive mode to help stop runners or peel things off squishies.

 

Then give them about a 15-20% damage boost. 

This would be a perfect Inherent starting point.

[Outrider_01]

Wouldn't even mind if they got a weak version of defiance 2.0 and scrapper crits.  Not uber powerful,  small +damage on half the attacks for a chain and the other half of the attacks get partial crit damage.  Kinda a combo builder with out complication mechanics.

[AgentForest]

On 1/23/2020 at 8:44 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

It's an interesting idea, but I have an issue with it in that you're rewarded for not using your secondary, so you end up being left with half a character if you want to do more damage.

That's more an issue that could be solved with number tweaks though.  Find out what X% damage boost is worth not having Y% defense/resistance.  The stronger a defensive power, the better the damage it would provide.  Maybe make it so that grabbing one specific power in the first place gives you 35% damage passively, and only loses 25% if turned on.  So even if it's on, you're still hitting harder, but you can choose to drop powers that provide resistances you don't really need right now.  Fighting lots of Warriors?  Drop your Energy/NegEnergy/Fire/Cold protection to hit them harder.  I think with play-testing, a good balance could be found for the different builds.