Discord Weekly Discussion - Week 35: PVP

[decimator656]

2 hours ago, SimpleGeekAce said:

Also to the GMs - slightly non-related, slightly related. How about putting with these and future discussions, a rule to not have posters confront one another.  Or atleast not break down someone's thoughts as a reply.  You (the GMs) want to have constructive and useful discussions, but I've noticed the same few people, across multiple threads on this forum, constantly take shots at each other and others, and then discussions turn into a few pages worth of back and forth, miscommunication/misunderstandings, and sometimes just derail a thread till a GM steps in to say calm down.  It doesn't help breaking down someone else's thoughts.  I feel like if someone doesn't agree with my suggestions (to the GMs), that's okay. But calling out my ideas because you think they're a bad idea, without much in return, is not helpful (to the GMs) and at worst, can make me NOT want to participate.  I'm sure others might feel the same way.

This.

Claiming that few players speak for the entire pvp community and that the entire pvp community supports only their ideas is counterproductive to bringing fresh ideas and positive change to the game.

I didn't elect anyone and I don't 'only support 3 people to speak for me.'

I am a pvp'er therefore I am in the pvp community.

Edited January 27, 2020 by decimator656

[Neuronia]

22 hours ago, CR Banana Man said:

Short term/realistic things that would make a lot of us happy

 

-Reduce or eliminate the heal penalties on absorb pain and share pain in PvP. These heals already have 3 other penalties that are more than sufficient, and the -100% heal penalty has been unreasonable outside of 2v2s since 2010, and even more so now with how high damage is in this patch.

-Fix phase shift suppressing when hit with a hold, and possibly reduce the activation time.

-Implement the accolade accessibility idea GM Jimmy and I discussed before: Add a global 20% HP and 10% endurance buff in arena and PvP zones, and disable the corresponding accolades in PvP. 

-Add the 8 arena maps we voted on from the new arena map pool from last year.

-Figure out a way to add suppression (like holds currently have) to the effects of taunt and -jump/-fly

 

Less short term but still doesn't involve an overhaul of the PvP system:

-Add versions of IOs that only work in PvP to vendors, purchasable for roughly the price of an SO.

1)Maybe shorten them. You can still get AB'd and that isn't great (or always reliable), or maybe give a short Absorb ablative HP while in AP/SP.

2)Dammit, I thought they'd fixed this with the last patch.

3)Yes please.
4)Yes please, some medium/smaller maps would be welcome.

5)Doesn't taunt already have this, I thought this happened with cage suppression in the day? Lukewarm on this as /TA and Taunters should have some form of role, maybe just reduce the duration of those effects somewhat in PvP?

 

Don't get the IO thing, I'm guessing we'd have Glad javs that just work in Arenas? I'm for this as well.

 

Just wanted to say that Kencian's post was amazing and correct on a lot of forms.
My concern with any AP changes is if you completely remove the -Heal capacity on them, Emps will just be rotating  AP's on Blasters in between evasion and so on, and won't be super killable and it could get to be a slog. Maybe instead of doing that, give Emps a scaling -Heal or -Regen for 1-3 seconds, or something.
I mean, obviously I'll be the first in line to get behind no heal penalty, but I'm just kinda surprised to see this requested as I've never heard of this before today.
Maybe increasing us to Blaster HP might be better, or just giving us AbsorbHP while in AP (this would combine with the absorb proc from IO's though).

 

Edit again:
Void's ideas on a PvP Zone of the Week are hella sweet, and yeah, make Warburg level 50 too. Warburg is a fantastic zone but getting nukes is a slog (Arachnoids do  a ton of toxic, have immobs/slows...) and maybe having Destiny in there would help a bit.

The superb post on DR/DEF curves by Alouu s worth a look, Sonics probably aren't ever coming back now but it would be nice to look at.

 

Erm what I enjoy?
Arena PvP is still hella fun though omg so much dammm coming in with each spike. Maybe look at procs a bit, or increase Squishy HP a bit in Arena/Zones or w/e.

I only seldom go into zones but they seem...fine? I do agree with...was it mac? that the RV AV's are kinda outta control at times, maybe take a look at those things.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Neuronia

[Phoenix']

* Remove or reduce penalty for Absorb Pain / Share Pain

 

There is no reason to exist so there is no reason to explain

 

* Maximum 2 damage procs per power and have proper base Damage for each set. 

 

Too much dmg in 8v8s, too low dmg in 1v1. 
Damage procs should be a supplementary option and not a requirement like they are now. 
The game should be base damage oriented like it used to. 

* Increase AoE dmg

 

Many AoE powers are useless in pvp. 
They do ridiculously low dmg now, they also did ridiculously high dmg in the past (specially nukes). 
An intermediate solution will be good for every set in the game. 

 

* Get Blaster hp cap to 1606 / Remove heals and absorb powers from blasters.

 

Some people will react and call this hate for the AT. 
I play blaster 95% of the time but the thing is blaster has become a universal AT. 
Blaster should be dealing the most dmg in the game than any other AT and thats it. 

 

* Allow Universal Travel IO's to be Slotted into Prestige Sprints

Builds are too tight to get maximum protection. This will give more room to everyone's builds to slot something else they wish. 

 

*  Turn off Incarnates in PvP Zones except Alpha 

 

Many will rage about this... 
Incarnates are least of our problems atm but sometimes ppl want to just get in a PvP Zone and have fun wrecking each other outside of organising pvp in Arena. 
They just give more imbalance in PvP than it already has.
 

* Remove Mez Detoggling for certain abilities. 

 

Considering the cast time of some abilities retoggling is a pain for many players. 
Keep the ability toggled but cancel its effect for a certain time when mezzed and after.

 

New things I would like to see in the future :

Arena

Options for new type of matches such as Capture the Flag, Deathmatch etc.

 

PvP Zone

PvP Missions such as Bank Missions, Rescue Hostage Missions etc 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Phoenix'

[macskull]

6 hours ago, decimator656 said:

This.

Claiming that few players speak for the entire pvp community and that the entire pvp community supports only their ideas is counterproductive to bringing fresh ideas and positive change to the game.

I didn't elect anyone and I don't 'only support 3 people to speak for me.'

I am a pvp'er therefore I am in the pvp community.

Hot's post was sarcasm, FYI.

[Phoenix']

17 hours ago, macskull said:

Hot's post was sarcasm, FYI.

Even though Hot was sarcastic he kinda had a point. 

On 1/27/2020 at 5:56 PM, decimator656 said:

This.

Claiming that few players speak for the entire pvp community and that the entire pvp community supports only their ideas is counterproductive to bringing fresh ideas and positive change to the game.

I didn't elect anyone and I don't 'only support 3 people to speak for me.'

I am a pvp'er therefore I am in the pvp community.

 

I don't think anyone is breaking down anyone's ideas imo.

BUT if we have a slight chance to fix pvp to its core and make it balanced I would personally break down my own ideas for the moment and give priority to those changes.
Alouu gave detailed numbers and system ideas that in my opinion need to be adressed straight to dev team along with other significant changing ideaa comming from the rest of the community.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Phoenix'

[Hot2]

40 minutes ago, macskull said:

Hot's post was sarcasm, FYI.

Um the delivery was sarcastic, but the message was pretty direct.

 

I have no problem with people voicing their opinions & ideas, however those ideas should be HEARD.

 

the people’s ideas that I mentioned should be LISTENED to.. there’s a difference.

[barrier]

I just want to keep reiterating that the fix to proc damage in pvp has nothing to do nerfing procs and everything to do with allowing for higher resistances for squishies through a change in Diminishing Returns. This is exactly the scenario the developers intended for DR to be used in.

 

My rad brute is already nearly immortal. A deep proc nerf would slow down the game, and I'm not sure that's the goal here.

Edited January 27, 2020 by barrier

[Zenex]

I have a few things I'd like to add, besides "revert i13" but I want to keep it as short as possible.

 

The Mez resistance vs protection situation, this is number one for me as it killed toggle debuffs and crippled the controlling ATs. ( No one enjoyed being perma held, but at least break frees worked).

 

DR should be toned down, a lot in some situations however with incarnates now being a thing in pvp I do see a place for DR to stop things from being ridiculous. It has to have a sweet spot where therm, sonic and other buffs ect will be useful but not have people too crazy via incarnate buffing.

 

Blasters and the other squishy AT's, considering blasters have the same pvp buffs as the other AT's with 1606 hp max I think they should be brought up to the blaster cap as well or have blasters lose some of their resistance to compensate for the increased surviverability.

 

Keeping power from changing too drastically between pve and pvp.

 

The final thing, which will be unpopular is to not try and make everything "viable for pvp" and accept some things will be better off pve than pvp and vis versa. Imho that's what they tried to do with i13 and it made pvp a lot less fun and far less builds pvp worthy

[Alouu]

Making a quick follow-up post to address a couple of things related in particular to the resistance tweaks I proposed. The first is to demonstrate that the curve tweak will make Tough attractive but not mandatory on Blasters, but meta on Defenders and Controllers. Second, regarding suggestions I've seen between this thread and the discord regarding increasing the maximum health for 1606 archetypes up to 1847 to match the buff that was given to Blasters, I believe that my tweaks accomplish a lot of what this change is intended to do already, and will attempt to prove that here.

 

To make my points I have drafted up three tables, these show what effective health would be achieved under the current system and the two proposals. The Pre-DR resistance values were arrived at by putting 3 resistance IO's into the archetype's epic res toggle, and then adding 10% to that total to account for things like the Shield Wall proc, Reactive Defences proc, as well as other miscellaneous +Res bonuses. Calculations can be found by clicking the hyperlinks embedded in the tables. The “Difference” column shows the Effective Health difference between the entity on that row, and a typical Blaster under the current system.

 

Current Values:

Archetype/Build	Health	Resistance	Effective Health	Difference
Blaster (Typical)	1847	41.1	3136	0.00%
Blaster (Tough)	1847	43.8	3286	+4.78%
Defender (Typical)	1606	43.3	2832	-9.69%
Defender (Tough)	1606	45.1	2925	-6.73%

 

Values under increased HP proposal:

Archetype/Build	Health	Resistance	Effective Health	Difference
Defender (Typical)	1847	43.3	3258	+3.89%
Defender (Tough)	1847	45.1	3364	+7.27%

 

Values under my DR curve tweaks:

Archetype/Build	Health	Resistance	Effective Health	Difference
Blaster (Typical)	1847	40.0	3078	-1.85%
Blaster (Tough)	1847	49.6	3665	+16.87%
Defender (Typical)	1606	45.4	2941	-6.21%
Defender (Tough)	1606	53.8	3473	+10.75%

 

So first up, to show that tough will be attractive but won't be mandatory on Blasters, we can see that under the new system, it will grant the user with 9.6% resistance after DR. This increases effective health from 3078 to 3665, a total net survivability boost of 19%. Since Blasters are pressed for pool powers, with Speed and Leaping being mandatory, Leadership being highly valued as well as Concealment for its free Lotg's, Karmas and Phase Shift also being very attractive, Tough will not outclass these options since for that 9.6% resistance you must both drop one of these high value pools, as well pick up a useless melee attack which also has limited use as a set-bonus mule on the way to aquiring Tough.

 

For my second point; showing that my res tweaks already accomplish much of what the health buff is supposed to, it is important to remember that tough and epic resistance toggles do not grant the same amount of resistance to all Archetypes, under the current system this basically doesn't matter at all since all Squishies are granted +40% free resistance, and are therefore pushed right onto the plateau of the curve regardless of how much resistance their epic toggles give. Under my new system however this is no longer the case, the values of these toggles matters a lot. It is for this reason that Defenders and Controllers in particular close the EHP gap dramatically under my new system, especially when using Tough. To illustrate what I mean, you can see that currently a Defender with Tough is still less survivable than a Blaster without Tough, under my system this changes completely. You can also see that comparing the health buff to my proposal, you can achieve more Effective health under my proposal than through the Health Buff, (3473 compared with 3364) provided you make the investment in your build. This investment is also an easier thing to make when in support roles at least Leadership is not so mandatory, which is why we see things like Sorcery and Medicine pools often being picked up right now.

 

So to cut to the heart of it, I don't think the health buff to all 1606's is compatible with my resistance curve tweaks, and I also don't think it is compatible with any potential other resistance curve tweak that could be devised. However since my tweaks do not help Dominators and Corruptors nearly so much as they help Defenders and Controllers, I think it could still be a good idea to hand out this buff to either just those two, or depending on if a protection based Mez system is implemented which would likely make Dominators viable without the buff, just Corruptors.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Alouu

[Gibson99]

SLOWS ARE NOTICEABLY MISSING FROM PvP 

We need slows to actually slow a target's movement speed and also have top tier slow powers have their -recharge effects work as intended. 

Powers like Lingering Radiation and Heat Loss come to mind.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Gibson99

[GM Miss]

Its only tuesday and you guys have has some really great suggestions so far! 

[barrier]

On 1/27/2020 at 10:56 AM, decimator656 said:

This.

Claiming that few players speak for the entire pvp community and that the entire pvp community supports only their ideas is counterproductive to bringing fresh ideas and positive change to the game.

I didn't elect anyone and I don't 'only support 3 people to speak for me.'

I am a pvp'er therefore I am in the pvp community.

Weekly "Discussion", not Weekly "Suggestions Thread"

[Zenex]

Something I forgot to add. 

The npcs in pvp zones need to to be toned down as with current DR they are more powerful than they should be making nukes in WB, AV in Rv ect harder than they should 

[Arcanum]

Wow! These are some incredibly detailed feedback/suggestions/ideas, so far! I love it! 

[Vea]

I have a PvP toon, but have yet to properly engage in PvP.. mainly because kickballs are a little bit late for my timezone. 

 

I personally think that combat attributes are too far away from the PvE game for the Average Joe to login to a PvP zone to try and have a go at PvPing. I feel like to actually PvP you need to do your research, have a well thought out build and even then it could be a pile of garbage. So if possible, some alignment to the PvE game would be nice or at least more intuitive. 

 

I'm not sure about the interest of low-level PvP*, but lower level PvP might serve as a stepping stone to Arena. *(PvP without IOs/Incarnates) - Something to sweeten the deal to participate this would be always be good.

[Ukase]

I'm sure I'm in the minority with this perspective, but let me say this. 

I do like the PvP IOs. Namely, the Glad Armor 3% def(all),  the Shield Wall 5% res (all) and the Panacea +hitPoints/recovery IO. I'm even okay with their being PvP IO sets with different rules applying for the different zones, PvP vs PvE. And, I don't honestly mind PvP. It's kind of exciting - if I'm in the mood for it. 

But - I do not like my character suddenly having different combat attributes upon entering the zone when I don't have any full PvP IO sets contributing to those same attributes. If I am at resist cap in PvE, I should be at resist cap in PvP. 

There will never be "balance" in pvp, because the ATs are different. They take different IO sets, get different bonuses and well, they're different! I think more people would pvp if the same rules applied to pvp as they do in pve. If a Sentinel is OP in PvP - so what? Every AT is going to shine somewhere, somehow, in some circumstances. That doesn't mean you have to change the rules. If it becomes City of Spines/Fire brutes, does that really hurt anything, if that's what people are happy with? In concept, certainly not ideal, but ultimately, we can look at why people like these flavor of the month powersets/ATs and find ways to address those wants/needs without changing the rules. 

I realize we have the option to make different builds for PvP if we like. It's not an issue of influence for me, it's an issue of not wanting to take the time to learn all the nuances of how differently things work in PvP. If the rules were the same, I would think more people would do more pvp because they would be better at it. People don't like what they're not good at. They won't become good at it when you gate it with odd rules...and why did travel suppression have to follow us from PvP into PvE? I hate travel suppression, but I digress. 

Okay, rant over. 

 

[SwitchFade]

I have only one reply.

 

I hope to see no impact to pve from any future pvp change, or any balance related changed of pve due to pvp. I hope to never be require to ever set foot in pvp to play pve. Otherwise, I'm all for happy pvp folk, I will just never interact in pvp.

[macskull]

5 hours ago, SwitchFade said:

I have only one reply.

 

I hope to see no impact to pve from any future pvp change, or any balance related changed of pve due to pvp. I hope to never be require to ever set foot in pvp to play pve. Otherwise, I'm all for happy pvp folk, I will just never interact in pvp.

In the entire history of this game there has only ever been one power or game mechanic nerfed in PvE for solely PvP reasons and I'm willing to bet 99% of players don't know what it is. I don't think any serious PvPer is going to advocate for mandatory PvP because we realize that wouldn't sit well with anyone. PvE incentives that get people into PvP zones can be nice (badges, temp powers, etc.) but no one is arguing for making those things mandatory in PvE.

 

Also, for what it's worth, melee attack range going from 5 feet to 7 feet and Scrapper/Brute/Tanker taunt doing -range were both PvP buffs that were also applied to PvE.

[Sniktch]

My opinion is:  Anything PvPers want that isn't designed to bait/crowbar people into PvP, they can have - as soon as Marshall and Born In Battle don't need villains to flag for PvP to get, whether by changing the requisite badges to not include PvP-zone Explore and History ones, or moving the plaques/badges out of PvP zones. 

 

And yes, Mac, I do know the history, etc - but the point, however annoying it is, bears repeating lest human nature rear its ugly head in the form of "it'll be different THIS time!".  Nukes, Shivans, and the original BiB/Marshall requirements were the definition of crowbarring folks into the zones, and I'm sure you remember just how nasty that turned for everyone involved.  As much as I honestly hate PvP, I don't begrudge you your 'fun' - I just want to be able to forget it exists regardless of where my characters live.

[VileTerror]

Maybe not entirely helpful of me, given the context . . . buuuuut you -can- get Born in Battle and Marshal outside of PvP zones.  By switching sides and becomes a dirty hero, and earning Portal Jockey and Received the Atlas Medallion Badges.  Both of which you can earn before level 20 with a little help from friends!

[macskull]

6 hours ago, Sniktch said:

My opinion is:  Anything PvPers want that isn't designed to bait/crowbar people into PvP, they can have - as soon as Marshall and Born In Battle don't need villains to flag for PvP to get, whether by changing the requisite badges to not include PvP-zone Explore and History ones, or moving the plaques/badges out of PvP zones. 

 

And yes, Mac, I do know the history, etc - but the point, however annoying it is, bears repeating lest human nature rear its ugly head in the form of "it'll be different THIS time!".  Nukes, Shivans, and the original BiB/Marshall requirements were the definition of crowbarring folks into the zones, and I'm sure you remember just how nasty that turned for everyone involved.  As much as I honestly hate PvP, I don't begrudge you your 'fun' - I just want to be able to forget it exists regardless of where my characters live.

I think I've run into other players in zone while trying to get those explore/history badges one time since I came back to Homecoming and I've done those accolades dozens of times. PvP zones that aren't Recluse's Victory on Indomitable are functionally PvE zones already since no one goes into them.

[Hot2]

15 hours ago, Sniktch said:

My opinion is:  Anything PvPers want that isn't designed to bait/crowbar people into PvP, they can have - as soon as Marshall and Born In Battle don't need villains to flag for PvP to get, whether by changing the requisite badges to not include PvP-zone Explore and History ones, or moving the plaques/badges out of PvP zones. 

 

And yes, Mac, I do know the history, etc - but the point, however annoying it is, bears repeating lest human nature rear its ugly head in the form of "it'll be different THIS time!".  Nukes, Shivans, and the original BiB/Marshall requirements were the definition of crowbarring folks into the zones, and I'm sure you remember just how nasty that turned for everyone involved.  As much as I honestly hate PvP, I don't begrudge you your 'fun' - I just want to be able to forget it exists regardless of where my characters live.

Hello,

 

Hey, it’s me again.

 

I think this discussion is in regards to PvP & changes that should be made regarding said topic.

 

If you don’t want to pvp, that’s fine. However, please also refrain from entering PvP discussions, simply in your words just “forget it exists”.

 

I am going to request a GM remove this person’s posts, as they do not pertain to PvP and are actually becoming counterproductive/bothersome.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

[Gibson99]

On 1/26/2020 at 5:50 PM, decimator656 said:

If you want to leave the zone when you are about to die don't enter the zone and don't pvp. Base Porting should've never been a thing in pvp. Just end it.

This is my opinion on pvp, not facts.

I am not trying to tell anyone how to play, I am just sharing my opinion on how pvp could be less run and gun (even for melee? Doesn't make sense) and more of an actual player vs. player battle.

Half of my time in zone pvp is spent chasing players that just retreat and come back, retreat and come back, base port and come back.

I am not trying to spend an hour in a pvp zone playing tag (Some is ok, but the complete lack of a travel suppression and the supremacy of spikes creates fotm around and caters to blaster and stalker playstyles).

The Slows and -Recharge are not working in PvP at all and I hear some players want to nerf webnade. 

Having toons with unrestricted movement and without -recharge blasting away with impunity is lacking creativity.

We need to slow these toons to a crawl and have their powers tray turn into tiny dots. 

They can phase or use their power pool teleport to escape. 

 

[M3z]

4 minutes ago, Gibson99 said:

The Slows and -Recharge are not working in PvP at all and I hear some players want to nerf webnade. 

Having toons with unrestricted movement and without -recharge blasting away with impunity is lacking creativity.

We need to slow these toons to a crawl and have their powers tray turn into tiny dots. 

They can phase or use their power pool teleport to escape. 

 

Gibson is right, the lack of slows/mezzes kills this games depth and stops so many ATs and sets from being viable in pvp right now. It really just simplifies the game and makes everything boil down to damage. Mezzes and slows REALLY REALLY need to be looked at. I think -jump should be countered by IR and that's it. If they do manage to bring back slows THEN they can think about suppressing -jump or nerfing it. But if you nerf -jump without adding any sort of CC benefits to the classes/ATs that rely on that? You'd only be making pvp worse.

[SwitchFade]

1 hour ago, Hot2 said:

Hello,

 

Hey, it’s me again.

 

I think this discussion is in regards to PvP & changes that should be made regarding said topic.

 

If you don’t want to pvp, that’s fine. However, please also refrain from entering PvP discussions, simply in your words just “forget it exists”.

 

I am going to request a GM remove this person’s posts, as they do not pertain to PvP and are actually becoming counterproductive/bothersome.

 

Thank you for your understanding.

Why ,hello, good to see you again.

 

As this is a thread concerning feedback around pvp desires and requests, please be open to including all viewpoints that are respectful.

 

All constructive feedback is welcome and I ask that you hold that in mind when giving constructive feedback concerning another's participation.

 

You're welcome for our understanding and we thank you for yours.