Income Inequality In CoX

[HelBlaiz]

@jubakumbi I'd say the only issue with your tone is whether you prefer convincing people you're right, or just telling them they're wrong. Being abrasive just makes people hate rubbing shoulders with you. Sure, it conveys the point that you think they're wrong fairly clearly, but you're not going to win over anyone who disagrees with you. You don't have to be fake to be respectful, and you don't have to be aggressive to be blunt.

 

A simple "I'm not a fan when people try gatekeeping. Can we let people play how they want to play?" Will win you more support for your ideas than accusations of herd mentality.

 

Back on topic, the influence inequality has been discredited by this point, it seems, but I still think increasing recipe/salvage drop rates would be beneficial.

[Abraxus]

 

1 hour ago, jubakumbi said:

That's really funny.

You think these forums have anything to do with playing COH?

The existence of this handle on these forums has absolutley no bearing on my playing COH for the long haul, or any other game where I use it.

You don't actually think what takes place on these forums has any RL meaning, do you?

This is nothing more than a way to waste time at my desk when I don't feel like painting my house or sorting more Magic cards.

 

And yes, my spelling sucks as much as my demeanor offends some people and my grammer probably makes others weep.

 

Truth be told, I really had no idea my thoughts were so offensive to so many of you - I have plenty of support for my ideas, both online and in RL.

 

I think it's fascinating that just talking blunty about my views on a game is so ... emotionally impactful on people I don't kow and never met, just through words on a screen.

I don't take gaming (forums) nearly as seriously as some people seem to...it's just another video game, just another forum...

 

Seems like a lot of drama just because I passionately express myself the same way here as I would in RL.

 

Since we are clearly on the topic of bashing me over discussing the dead-horse of INF equality,  I would still love to know why, specifically, the words I use hurt more than the words I see others use that hurt me, like 'ban for using Homages', 'ban for charging for AE runs', 'prevent powerlevelling', 'that AT is broken, buff mine', 'you are playing that character wrong'...

All those words hurt me deeply, as they show a community that wants players that will conform and attack anything not 'right'...

 

Feel free to just PM me with why you think I am so terrible, that's fine as well.

 

This is the most fun I have had in a while, thanks everyone!

Seeing as how this thread has gone so far off the rails, that there is no going back...ok.  I'll bite. 

Personally, I have no problem with ya man!  If there is any issue on my part, it is not necessarily the bluntness, or the topics involved.  Not even necessarily the ideas, or convictions.  I'm just as passionate about the game.  But, we express our enthusiasm in different manners. 

For me, it's the generalization.  The homogeneous application of blame, and accusation on the community as a whole, for the few that cross your perceived lines of offense.  You seem to perceive the whole thing as a self-righteous,  self-aggrandizing, self-congratulatory, self-indulgent group of fakes, who like to think they are much better than they really are.  I obviously don't agree.  I feel that it might not be as righteous as it believes itself to be, but it's nowhere near as bad as you make it out to be either.  But, that's life in general...isn't it?

I'm sure this thread will soon be noticed by the Devs, and closed because it now represents nothing resembling the topic presented by the OP.  But, perhaps it will serve some purpose before that happens, because we all seem to love the drama of these kinds of conversations.

 

Edited February 20, 2020 by Abraxus

[jubakumbi]

3 minutes ago, HelBlaiz said:

@jubakumbi I'd say the only issue with your tone is whether you prefer convincing people you're right, or just telling them they're wrong. Being abrasive just makes people hate rubbing shoulders with you. Sure, it conveys the point that you think they're wrong fairly clearly, but you're not going to win over anyone who disagrees with you. You don't have to be fake to be respectful, and you don't have to be aggressive to be blunt.

 

A simple "I'm not a fan when people try gatekeeping. Can we let people play how they want to play?" Will win you more support for your ideas than accusations of herd mentality.

 

Back on topic, the influence inequality has been discredited by this point, it seems, but I still think increasing recipe/salvage drop rates would be beneficial.

Thanks for the responce!

Really!

 

I have no desire to convince anyone of anything.

I prefer people lok at all the data they have and make choices.

I have (sometimes passionate) opinions about things and I like to share those.

One persons blunt is another persons aggressive - I have used the same tones and langauge and get vastly different reactions - there is no way I can please everyone, I learned this long agao, so I simply don't try - I am not here to please anyone.

This is not a problem just here, this is problem of RL - blunt to some is automatically aggresive while to others it's just normal conversation.

 

"I am not a fan" does not properly begin to describe the unbridled hate I have toward people that want to tell other people how to have fun, to me that would be 'fake nice'.

On some topics, I am passionate, regardless of the 'forum'.

 

I will not use some universally neutral language to convey thoughts that I think need accurate words, I find it to be lying/subversive/wrong - I try to convey what I actually think, not some watered-down version of that, I prefer to be honest, open, and blunt.

I don't expect others to change to suit my communication prefernces.

[HelBlaiz]

Well you could probably get away with "vehemently loath gatekeeping with the passion of a thousand suns" so long as you keep the hate targetted at the topic, and not the people. The point is more to let people know you dislike something that can be changed and isn't targetted at them. If people think you aren't respecting them, they'll just double down on their side of the argument because that's how psychology works. "He obviously hates me and therefore can't be reasonable. So his point is unreasonable, too."

 

Of course, by your own admission, you're not here to change anyone's mind. So all of that was me spitting into the wind, I suppose. But you are right that you can't control how people react to your side of a conversation. Some people will take insult from innocent comments or abruptness in general. That doesn't mean an attempt can't be made in the name of diplomacy. The worst case scenario, they get offended anyway, but at least people observing the discourse can vouch that you were being reasonable.

[arcane]

I don’t have the time to read all this, but, in all fairness, people who believe in equality of outcome are objectively morally inferior.

[Display Name]

This is my first MMO.  I started in May 2019.  By July I was generating hundreds of millions in a matter of days and was spending it as fast as I made it.  I've seen a direct correlation between people who don't farm or play the market and are broke.

 

But even begging for money is profitable in this game, so I don't understand how people are so successful at not making inf.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

What many in this thread seem to be willfully ignoring, is at its core what the Op is asking for is for play time to be equally rewarded. The best analogue I can come up with is the idea of best in slot gear in a typical MMO only being found in Raids. In a raid orientated MMO that is perfectly acceptable, a game like EQ or WoW qualify as Raid MMO. CoH has never even come close to this aside from the era when HOs were bugged and allowing all sorts of exploiting that still is a stain on this games otherwise fairly clean record.

 

Basically influence earning and its rate of gain being clearly better for some activities is much the same. Imagine your at a arcade, we can all pick the games we want to play, but the air hockey table always gives the most reward tickets, even if you hate air hockey you will likely spend your time playing it to get the most tickets for your game time.

 

Folks keep saying they are glad so many of the Carrots used by companies in MMO to motivate players are a thing of the past. However this seems to only apply when the carrots for content they dont favor remain stale. We no longer see PVP IOs only dropping from pvp kills, A similar thing as well. Basically what is being asked for here is for those who do just enjoy casual pugging of radios etc to not be so much less rewarded. A typical citadel run takes the avg pug between 45min and an hour, they get a healthy 40 merits. Yet people playing radio mishes for the same time, even if theya re actually getting more content done in the same time, get radically less rewards.

 

The real debate is should activity A reward more then activity B or C? Should people who find the very play approach of raids, or even TFs, or even just teaming in general be deemed a inferior player and forced to devote more play time and energy to a single character to compensate for the lack of earning power? Hence those working hardest, and actually playing the most risky way, solo actually are not being properly rewarded for their greater risk.

 

Im going to dig into ancient D&D history to make a point. In the foundation of D&D there  is a campaign setting called Greyhawk. In it there is a group of characters known as the circle of 8. These 8 characters are much like Statesman and his group in CoH. They are NPCs based upon the original characters of the original beta testers. Their exploits helped shape the history and lore of the game setting. However for all their great power and milestone moments, they pale in comparison to the 1 traitor. Rory the Traitor is an infamous icon of D&D, because his player was the first cut throat party killer. His player killed and robbed from the rest of the players, and then went off on his own. Each Week 2 groups got ran, Rory's group and the 8, and Rory rapidly outpaced the team. 1 player getting all the xp, and all the loot while shouldering all the risk was the power leveler, the team by its very nature of being safer, and sharing the risk and rewards progressed at a fraction of the rate.

 

So maybe trying to find a better balance between hard core earner and casual player is not some terrible thing and deserving consideration and debate rather then petty personal attacks, handwaving, and clear and blatant trolling for giggles while offering no meaningful discussion.

[Llewellyn Blackwell]

10 minutes ago, Display Name said:

This is my first MMO.  I started in May 2019.  By July I was generating hundreds of millions in a matter of days and was spending it as fast as I made it.  I've seen a direct correlation between people who don't farm or play the market and are broke.

 

But even begging for money is profitable in this game, so I don't understand how people are so successful at not making inf.

Because casual players who just log on to play and mainly join pick up groups are basically excluded from any real inf earning due to the way rewards are doled out. While I am not saying Fire AE farms should earn well, What I am saying is there is no reason they reward so much more. For example street sweeping. Rescued mugging victims could give a single reward merits when rescued making street sweeping perfectly viable but so many resist the idea of making common street sweeping reward anything of value.

[Frostbiter]

2 hours ago, arcaneholocaust said:

I don’t have the time to read all this, but, in all fairness, people who believe in equality of outcome are objectively morally inferior.

I agree. Equality of opportunity is much more important. When you try to force outcomes it brings out all sorts of other issues. Just look at any Mayor of Baltimore for the last 30 years.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Frostbiter

[Apparition]

3 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Because casual players who just log on to play and mainly join pick up groups are basically excluded from any real inf earning due to the way rewards are doled out. While I am not saying Fire AE farms should earn well, What I am saying is there is no reason they reward so much more. For example street sweeping. Rescued mugging victims could give a single reward merits when rescued making street sweeping perfectly viable but so many resist the idea of making common street sweeping reward anything of value.

 

They're not excluded.  They have the same opportunities to play the market and farm as everyone else.  If they choose not to do, then that is on them.

[jubakumbi]

 

1 minute ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Because casual players who just log on to play and mainly join pick up groups are basically excluded from any real inf earning due to the way rewards are doled out. While I am not saying Fire AE farms should earn well, What I am saying is there is no reason they reward so much more. For example street sweeping. Rescued mugging victims could give a single reward merits when rescued making street sweeping perfectly viable but so many resist the idea of making common street sweeping reward anything of value.

You make the players that don't bother to learn how to make more INF out to be victims, IMO.

 

If you make something 'easy and quick' reward anything close to higher-tier rewards, it will be the thing that fuels the very high-earners that the plan was meant to curb.

 

That is the Way of the MMO.

Exploit Early, Exploit Often.

 

I have no problem with activities rewarding increased INF.

Does not bother me one bit.

Won't really solve any issues, IMO.

 

I also think just removing INF all together would not salve the 'problem' presented - there will simply always be hard core players and casual players...those that IO and those that do not...

 

[Display Name]

Yes.  Doorsitting takes as much time as street sweeping.  Etc.

 

I can't understand why people are so successful at not earning inf in this game.

[Lines]

22 minutes ago, Bentley Berkeley said:

Because casual players who just log on to play and mainly join pick up groups are basically excluded from any real inf earning due to the way rewards are doled out. While I am not saying Fire AE farms should earn well, What I am saying is there is no reason they reward so much more. For example street sweeping. Rescued mugging victims could give a single reward merits when rescued making street sweeping perfectly viable but so many resist the idea of making common street sweeping reward anything of value.

I'd love to see stuff like this. But also, my #1 wish is a total head-to-toe revamping of streetsweeping anyway.

 

I don't think anything about the way things are is a problem, but there's certainly value in diversifying the ways players can get income, whether influence or merits.

[nihilii]

The idea radio missions are less efficient by orders of magnitude has to be the strangest thing out of this thread so far.

Radio missions are... missions. In which you fight normal enemies. Who give the same amount of exp and inf as every other enemy in the game.

(Except AE, where enemies actually only give *half* of the inf and exp.)

 

There's nothing special about radio missions that makes them unsuitable for generating large amounts of influence. Crank the rep as high as you can handle, get going, and you'll see the goods coming.

 

What is more likely: pickup groups where people stand around doing nothing until they have 8 players, then spend a few minutes picking a Council mission specifically, then go to the mission, then wait at the door for everyone to get in, then look at each other silently until someone finally gets started... then repeat the process from scratch after the mission is done because 1 or 2 players had to go...

These groups? Yeah, they won't make much influence.

This isn't a problem with radio missions.

[Galaxy Brain]

[Blastit]

3 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

That's really funny.

You think these forums have anything to do with playing COH?

The existence of this handle on these forums has absolutley no bearing on my playing COH for the long haul, or any other game where I use it.

You don't actually think what takes place on these forums has any RL meaning, do you?

This is nothing more than a way to waste time at my desk when I don't feel like painting my house or sorting more Magic cards.

So you don't believe that you are talking to other humans. You believe you're only barfing words into the meaningless void. The problem with believing this is 1) that you are wrong and 2) that it's an unhealthy attitude in an online community because it's counterproductive to building a community.

 

4 hours ago, jubakumbi said:

 I would still love to know why, specifically, the words I use hurt more than the words I see others use that hurt me, like 'ban for using Homages', 'ban for charging for AE runs', 'prevent powerlevelling', 'that AT is broken, buff mine', 'you are playing that character wrong'...

All those words hurt me deeply, as they show a community that wants players that will conform and attack anything not 'right'...

 

None of those things cropped up in this thread and nobody in this thread began targetting you out of the blue. That other people have been unpleasant to you elsewhere does not justify being proactively unpleasant to yet other people.

 

Additionally you portray yourself as a very conflicted person because in the same post as where you claim to believe that nothing said on a forum means anything you also say that words on a forum hurt you deeply. Shouldn't you then be aware that how others communicate really does mean something? Even online, in an anynomous place? You appear to be acting based on two conflicting beliefs which is very human and all but is worth introspection.

[roleki]

It is possible, however unlikely, that Jub was not actually hurt by those statements but rather offered them as a flat echo of the kind of things people seem to let slide without objection before singling Jub out for using hurty words.

 

 

[Coyote]

5 minutes ago, roleki said:

It is possible, however unlikely, that Jub was not actually hurt by those statements but rather offered them as a flat echo of the kind of things people seem to let slide without objection before singling Jub out for using hurty words.

 

Well, from Mr Ed's mouth:

"it's fascinating that just talking blunty about my views on a game is so ... emotionally impactful on people

......

This is the most fun I have had in a while, thanks everyone!"

 

The problem isn't that he has a different point of view. Those are welcome.

The problem is that he mischaracterizes opposing viewpoints, doesn't bother listening to other arguments because this forum doesn't mean anything, portrays his viewpoint as inherently superior to other viewpoints while also demeaning the viewpoints and those who have them, and then....

/em popcorn

 

How much more of a classic troll behavior can someone have? I've been admin of a place like this, and I've seen few posters who were as obviously trolling to get some amusement for the day. I'd like to say "it's a shame, could have been an interesting discussion", but I've learned that once you realize a person isn't interested in the discussion but in the fun to be had from stirring up stuff, it's better to just switch to sarcasm and humor, and have fun of your own. Or to activate the Shields of Ignorance (or is that Ignoring? 😉 )

[Display Name]

38 minutes ago, nihilii said:

The idea radio missions are less efficient by orders of magnitude has to be the strangest thing out of this thread so far.

Radio missions are... missions. In which you fight normal enemies. Who give the same amount of exp and inf as every other enemy in the game.

(Except AE, where enemies actually only give *half* of the inf and exp.)

 

There's nothing special about radio missions that makes them unsuitable for generating large amounts of influence. Crank the rep as high as you can handle, get going, and you'll see the goods coming.

 

What is more likely: pickup groups where people stand around doing nothing until they have 8 players, then spend a few minutes picking a Council mission specifically, then go to the mission, then wait at the door for everyone to get in, then look at each other silently until someone finally gets started... then repeat the process from scratch after the mission is done because 1 or 2 players had to go...

These groups? Yeah, they won't make much influence.

This isn't a problem with radio missions.

I normally only participate in PI radio missions.  When I run them, I'll probably kick it off at 6 players and recruit along the way.  I can usually cycle Council missions pretty quickly except when the random number generator gets mad at me.  I'll pick up a Circle of Thorns mission if I can't find Council quickly.  I'll recruit any level (even level 1.)  Because I'll take any level, I always set my difficulty at +2/ and let the players ask for higher.  I've also noticed several PI radio missions accepting any level on the LFG channel, so this isn't uncommon.  At some point I'll remind people of the exp booster.  It's been my observation that most, if not all people who participate in these missions don't make *any* inf because of the exp boosters.  But when I'm running them I sure do!  😉

 

So anyway, when I'm leveling I only do PI radio missions.  I never make any money when I'm not running them, but I make money in other ways so it's not a problem.

[jubakumbi]

4 minutes ago, Blastit said:

So you don't believe that you are talking to other humans. You believe you're only barfing words into the meaningless void. The problem with believing this is 1) that you are wrong and 2) that it's an unhealthy attitude in an online community because it's counterproductive to building a community.

 

 

None of those things cropped up in this thread and nobody in this thread began targetting you out of the blue. That other people have been unpleasant to you elsewhere does not justify being proactively unpleasant to yet other people.

 

Additionally you portray yourself as a very conflicted person because in the same post as where you claim to believe that nothing said on a forum means anything you also say that words on a forum hurt you deeply. Shouldn't you then be aware that how others communicate really does mean something? Even online, in an anynomous place? You appear to be acting based on two conflicting beliefs which is very human and all but is worth introspection.

Sure I know I am interacting with other humans, but the details and minutae of our interactions about a video gome on an internet forum just don't carry much water in the real world for me. My life is not going to be impacted. I believe nothing, just to be clear.

 

I don't see threads as sacrosanct single lane discussions.

I was simply giving examples of what I see that upsets me around how people treat each other over a game, so that I caould in turn get other to give me examples of what opinions I have shared that are upsetting.

I find it upsetting that there are people who think shaming others for how they choose to play a video game - but in the picture, no, that feeling has no real impact on RL, it does not prevent or enable me from continuing my existence.

 

I live for introspection. I know very well who I am and where I fit. 

I am well aware that the way I communicate rubs some people the wrong way - the way other comminucate sometimes rubs me the wrong way - it's called life.

 

Anyone that thinks I am going to change the way I communicate due to upsetting a few people on a game forum is smoking better stuff than I can buy.

I get that some posters would really like it if I fit into a mold of what a person should be and how they should act.

That's not my problem. *shrug*

[Frostbiter]

53 minutes ago, nihilii said:

The idea radio missions are less efficient by orders of magnitude has to be the strangest thing out of this thread so far.

Radio missions are... missions. In which you fight normal enemies. Who give the same amount of exp and inf as every other enemy in the game.

(Except AE, where enemies actually only give *half* of the inf and exp.)

 

There's nothing special about radio missions that makes them unsuitable for generating large amounts of influence. Crank the rep as high as you can handle, get going, and you'll see the goods coming.

 

What is more likely: pickup groups where people stand around doing nothing until they have 8 players, then spend a few minutes picking a Council mission specifically, then go to the mission, then wait at the door for everyone to get in, then look at each other silently until someone finally gets started... then repeat the process from scratch after the mission is done because 1 or 2 players had to go...

These groups? Yeah, they won't make much influence.

This isn't a problem with radio missions.

I ran an experiment on Radio Missions just the other night. Ran lvl 50+4 solo Radio Missions until I got the Safeguard. My total time was 40 minutes and my influence earnings were 4.3 million after I sold a 2 million recipe drop. That is pretty normal from my experiences chasing the defeat 25 Villain Safeguard Badge. I'm not the biggest money maker out there since I don't really care but I still manage to trick out my builds in ways that I could never do on Live.

Edited February 20, 2020 by Frostbiter

[roleki]

5 minutes ago, Coyote said:

 

Well, from Mr Ed's mouth:

"it's fascinating that just talking blunty about my views on a game is so ... emotionally impactful on people

......

This is the most fun I have had in a while, thanks everyone!"

 

The problem isn't that he has a different point of view. Those are welcome.

The problem is that he mischaracterizes opposing viewpoints, doesn't bother listening to other arguments because this forum doesn't mean anything, portrays his viewpoint as inherently superior to other viewpoints while also demeaning the viewpoints and those who have them, and then....

/em popcorn

 

How much more of a classic troll behavior can someone have? I've been admin of a place like this, and I've seen few posters who were as obviously trolling to get some amusement for the day. I'd like to say "it's a shame, could have been an interesting discussion", but I've learned that once you realize a person isn't interested in the discussion but in the fun to be had from stirring up stuff, it's better to just switch to sarcasm and humor, and have fun of your own. Or to activate the Shields of Ignorance (or is that Ignoring? 😉 )

Also entirely possible that the constant treadmilling of this topic inherently lends it to digressions that some would view as trolling when it's really just done in service to how pointless the discussion is in the first place.

 

Me, I just think it's funny that we have "your words are destroying the community!" and "they aren't playing the way *I* want them to so the activity they engage in should be curtailed!" all on the same sheet of glass.

 

I mean, people have tried to prop up homogeneous communities before, but the effects of inbreeding take a huge toll on them. 

 

Diversity, now that is viable and evergreen.

[Blastit]

46 minutes ago, nihilii said:

These groups? Yeah, they won't make much influence.

This isn't a problem with radio missions.

This question indeed isn't really about radio missions but about what a designer can or should do when people play the game poorly or "wrongly". We know there's a disparity in possible resource income levels depending on what you do exactly, and we know that the IO system is both highly impactful as well as gated behind resources. So that means that some players are going to have less access to fully realised characters than other players. Is this good? Is this bad? What actually is the real problem? What can even be done?

 

What means do the HC team have access to in order to make sure that more people understand the reward systems and the IO system? Should they post links to forum guides in more places? Write up information windows in the actual game? Code proper tutorials on not only how to craft but what to craft and why? Would those be accessed sufficiently to make a difference? If some players are still left behind despite everything done and they come to the forums to talk about it, what should they be told?

 

 

Ultimatley I think that you can really only aim for degrees. You can put a lot of work in to make a game more accessible on multiple levels and these efforts can be very successful as well but 100% isn't possible. Some people just don't want to understand a game's mechanics outside of how to move and maybe aim. No amount of tutorials will help with that. Getting absolutely everyone to play the AH the same way would probably have some weird results. Plus the general question of what this whole endeavour is about and who it's for. So probably questions that are less about math and more about judgement and decisions.

[Blastit]

13 minutes ago, roleki said:

Also entirely possible that the constant treadmilling of this topic inherently lends it to digressions that some would view as trolling when it's really just done in service to how pointless the discussion is in the first place.

 

Me, I just think it's funny that we have "your words are destroying the community!" and "they aren't playing the way *I* want them to so the activity they engage in should be curtailed!" all on the same sheet of glass.

 

I mean, people have tried to prop up homogeneous communities before, but the effects of inbreeding take a huge toll on them. 

 

Diversity, now that is viable and evergreen.

Diversity does not mean allowing toxic behaviour. Anyone trying to build a community absolutely can't allow people to be aggressive towards each other. A rule against simply not being a jerk is necessary. If not you're going to end up driving away 1) those the aggressive people target, 2) those that fear becoming the next targets, 3) those that don't want to deal with aggressive people everywhere, 4) those that now miss the people they knew and liked who belonged to the previous three categories and 5) those that have now lost faith in the leaders of the community.

This is why it's called "toxic" behaviour. It spreads, hurts and makes the community sick. Kicking out people who display toxic behaviour is not about creating a homogeneous community, it's about creating a community at all.

[MunkiLord]

I have no problem increasing rewards in radio missions, as that would help players with either no or minimal negative impact on others. However, I'm not convinced increasing influence would really do anything. I think the best change would be recipe and rare salvage drop rates being increased a good amount. Both per mob and end of mission rates. 

 

It would give the players drops they could potentially use immediately or increase supply which could eventually lead to lower prices. And would encourage more random teaming. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by MunkiLord