Focused Feedback: Dark Melee Update (Build 2)

[ScarySai]

7 minutes ago, Caulderone said:

Drop the images into spoiler tags, maybe?

Worked like a charm, I didn't even think about that.

 

Thank you.

 

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[Makobolite]

Echoing some of the other sentiments, lightning rod and shield charge as the melee telenuke will also hit a larger radius, it's usually used as something where you can jump into a mob, and those clear the trash mobs immediately, and then clear with your additional AoEs in the case of Elec Melee, here we open with Soul Drain(which may be slotted more for utility instead), then a Dark Equilibrium, which is not as big radius as the other nukes. And it barely dents the whole mob,

 

Scrapper crits are something that makes scrapers really satisfying, the crit is what would make your Dark Equilibrium - actually turn the tide of the battle by being able to clear multiple mobs, and not necessarily being immediately spammable like other AoEs.

[flip]

I see a lot of referring to DC (DE now I guess? Not really sure why the name change) as a mini-nuke and I feel the need to point out that this is an 8m radius power. An essential component of nukes in general and all of the powers that have been specifically used as comparison points is their radius. If DE is going to be subject to the limitations of those it damn well better have a hugely increased radius and target cap.

 

Now we've just got bad spin on 10x the cooldown. These changes ended in a convoluted, awkward to parse power that plays like a shitty spin in reality.

Edited February 29, 2020 by flip

[ScarySai]

Not to mention that the actual nukes this is supposed to be based on do bonus damage based on proximity, which makes the removal DC/DE's bonus damage questionable. 200 extra damage on +4 isn't a small contribution.

[Doc_Scorpion]

4 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Shadow Maul (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker) is now a much larger, faster cone that's actually capable of easily hitting multiple targets - especially on tanks!

• Changes from previous build:
  • Recharge reduced from 14 to 11 seconds

Thanks!  Tested in KR, and it really makes low level attack chains flow more smoothly.

[Alouu]

Reading through the new name and mechanics of Dark Equilibrium gave me an idea for a bit of flavor, split the damage into two instances; the one scaling off endurance could be energy and one scaling off damage bonus negative energy. Of course it would be very rare to get your damage bonus just right so the two damage instances matched in numbers floating above enemies heads, but still be a fun bit of flavor nevertheless, and as an added plus might help new players understand better the seperate scaling mechanics when they see it in action.

 

Edited February 29, 2020 by Alouu

[BrandX]

I'll say it here too.  Dark Equilibrium (why the name change?) should be able to Crit.  The reason Lightning Rod and Shield Charge don't Crit, is because they're pet powers.  Also, the power's damage is dependent on amount of endurance one has when they use the power, so it won't be high all the time.

[ScarySai]

8 minutes ago, BrandX said:

Also, the power's damage is dependent on amount of endurance one has when they use the power, so it won't be high all the time.

I'd argue it won't be high at any time, anymore.

[Captain Powerhouse]

54 minutes ago, flip said:

DE now I guess? Not really sure why the name change

 

Historically, the developers of the game would rename a power if it was changed significantly for a single power set to create a distinction between the two different flavors of the power.

 

Example: Conserve Energy in Electricity and Energy armor-sets was renamed to Energize when they got attributes that would not ever be copied over to other versions of Conserve Power.

 

As for crits: that wont be changing, the power wont crit.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Captain Powerhouse

[Bionic_Flea]

The latest version is not as sweet as the previous one.  But it still about doubles the damage of Dark consumption/equilibrium that my tank is currently doing.  So while it's not as nice a buff, it's still a buff.

[ScarySai]

19 minutes ago, Captain Powerhouse said:

As for crits: that wont be changing, the power wont crit.

No crit is fine, but it needs to hit harder, or have it's bonus damage reinstated in the next build. This thing's a wet noodle.

 

I have no real complaints about shadow maul, though I personally think it's still a tiny bit slow.

[honoraryorange]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Comparing numbers, here with the previous screenshots, I've decided to log into my claw/bio. For the sake of an accurate test, I have disabled the damage aura, the -res aura, and offensive mode. Bio is not modifying these results at all, this is purely what claws can do by itself. Dark Equilibrium's numbers are also included below.

 

Following tests are on +4 council.

 

Spin with no stacks of follow up.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Spin with just one stack of follow-up.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Spin with two stacks of follow up, at the bottom you'll see it with three.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Reminder: This ability is spammable and can crit.

 
 

 

 

Dark Equilibrium, no soul drain, full endurance (Ageless, first layer to make sure.)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Fully soul drained+AAO + Assault Core Hybrid, effectively damage capped. The 309's were targets affected by the fury proc from the soul drain.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

End result: Intentionally held back, spammable AOE from claws can hit harder than a fully buffed to it's max potential dark equilibrium in just two uses, or just flat out crit for more.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(This image isn't supposed to be here, but won't let me delete it.)
 

 

Thanks for testing this. I think this is showing us that the new power is largely useless for its damage potential. At this point it might as well do zero, given the cooldown and tiny radius.

 

If we're doing the tiny radius long cooldown, this thing's damage needs to be tripled. If we're doing the low damage thing, it needs a 15 foot radius (and probably still a little more damage).

 

[Bopper]

Since we are calling it Dark Equilibrium and incorporating damage scaling based on endurance levels, why not do the same for the recovered endurance? It could work like Gamma Boost, where higher endurance levels does less endurance return with more damage output,  while less endurance levels do less damage output but provide more endurance return?

 

Edit: Suggested design of formula:

DMG = 100

END = 10

 

Damage = DMG + DMG*(source.EndurancePoints%)

 

Endurance = END + END*(100% - source.EndurancePoints%)

 

So at most, you can do 200 damage, and at most you get 20 endurance pts per target hit. On the flip side, the minimums would be 100 and 10, respectively. This mechanic would definitely fit the name Equilibrium.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Bopper

[Neogumbercules]

2 hours ago, ScarySai said:

Comparing numbers, here with the previous screenshots, I've decided to log into my claw/bio. For the sake of an accurate test, I have disabled the damage aura, the -res aura, and offensive mode. Bio is not modifying these results at all, this is purely what claws can do by itself. Dark Equilibrium's numbers are also included below.

 

Following tests are on +4 council.

 

Spin with no stacks of follow up.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Spin with just one stack of follow-up.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

Spin with two stacks of follow up, at the bottom you'll see it with three.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Reminder: This ability is spammable and can crit.

 
 

 

 

Dark Equilibrium, no soul drain, full endurance (Ageless, first layer to make sure.)

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

Fully soul drained+AAO + Assault Core Hybrid, effectively damage capped. The 309's were targets affected by the fury proc from the soul drain.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

 

 

End result: Intentionally held back, spammable AOE from claws can hit harder than a fully buffed to it's max potential dark equilibrium in just two uses, or just flat out crit for more.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

(This image isn't supposed to be here, but won't let me delete it.)
 

 

Appreciate this testing. It's clear this power just got nuked (pun intended). 

 

The missing endurance aspect of this doesn't seem too well thought out. It's an effect that will almost never matter in post 50 content or on teams where there's at least one person who can buff recovery (p.s. Almost everyone takes ageless). For a mostly solo player to make the most of this ability they'd have to intentionally gas themselves or gimp their build to spend more endurance than they can sustain. 

 

IMO the ability should just do more flat damage, if we want an interesting mechanic associated with it, I previously suggested damage scaling based on missing enemy HP to turn it into a finisher.

 

Right now it's not so great. 

[Camel]

I’m not as great as a numbers person as some of you are in the community, but I have a very good natural understanding of this game and what “feels” right. I think giving DE a ceiling that is only slightly higher than Shield Charge would be ideal. Maybe 10-15% more damage than SC under the right conditions? Either that, or just give it a base damage that is almost on par with the other melee nukes while still maintaining its utility as an end management power. Even at +4, DE should hit for at least 275-300 damage consistently under full stacks of Soul Drain. 

[WindDemon21]

*sigh* just give us engulfing darkness and put a recovery boost to siphon life in addition to the heal. I'd be much happier with that. It would give more reliable -to hit to aoe that way which is supposed to be the main attribute of dark melee anyway.

Edited February 29, 2020 by WindDemon21

[Bionic_Flea]

8 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

For a mostly solo player to make the most of this ability they'd have to intentionally gas themselves or gimp their build to spend more endurance than they can sustain. 

I think you are misunderstanding.  It does the most damage when you are full on endurance and the least amount of damage when almost out of endurance (if you're totally out you can't use the attack).

 

[ScarySai]

Yeah, it still scales off end the same way it did in the last build, it's just considerably more underwhelming now.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[Leogunner]

27 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

The missing endurance aspect of this doesn't seem too well thought out. It's an effect that will almost never matter in post 50 content or on teams where there's at least one person who can buff recovery (p.s. Almost everyone takes ageless). For a mostly solo player to make the most of this ability they'd have to intentionally gas themselves or gimp their build to spend more endurance than they can sustain. 

The current setup for DE is more damage if you're topped off on END.

 

But I find it interesting you use the word "gimp" if the build, itself, has a strong/reliable +END tool to recover lost endurance.  Would that not be considered building for purpose rather than "gimp"?  Seems like every build having all the same goals (+def, +rech, +recovery, +dmg) "gimps" build diversity.  I'm not trying to change that but it's to paint my perspective on that matter as a whole.

[csr]

6 hours ago, Jimmy said:

Dark Melee Update

• Dark Melee was seriously underperforming in the AoE department. These changes are aimed to increase the AoE potential of the set whilst having minimal impact on the single target potential.
• Shadow Maul (Tanker, Scrapper, Brute, Stalker) is now a much larger, faster cone that's actually capable of easily hitting multiple targets - especially on tanks!
• Dark Equilibrium 
  • Changes from previous build:
    • Renamed to Dark Equilibrium
    • No longer crits for Scrappers
      • This brings it in line with other melee mini-nukes (Lightning Rod and Shield Charge) which also do not crit
    • Damage bonus to enemies within 3ft has been removed.
    • Damage formula adjusted:
      • Half the damage will now always apply, and is impacted by buffs and enhancements
      • Half the damage is now bonus damage that scales off of your Max endurance

Wow, DC/DE took a beating.  Heck, it's almost down to where I suggested in the Tanker patch testing.  😄  [That was DS 1 on a 60s timer (to match Energy Absorption/Energy Drain), but with no change to the END recovery.]

 

I now have the set AoE on par with Martial Arts and better than Energy Melee (I'll say it again because it bears repeating... boy does that set suck).  By my metric it now gets right on the average buff from the Tanker Inherent while moving up from being an outlier off the bottom for AoE to just one of several poor AoE sets.  And keep in mind that Soul Drain means it does better damage with Pool attacks than most sets, so it gains some ground on them there.

 

I think some additional improvement might be in order for the set, but I think it should be put into the set's worst power - Touch of Fear - instead of back into Dark Equilibrium.

[Neogumbercules]

1 hour ago, Bionic_Flea said:

I think you are misunderstanding.  It does the most damage when you are full on endurance and the least amount of damage when almost out of endurance (if you're totally out you can't use the attack).

 

I did miss that part, thanks. Seems even weirder then. Does it recover more endurance and deal less damage when you're low on end? Because that would seem like the equilibrium part of the name to me. 

 

If not, then the damage scaling based on endurance seems even more pointless... 

[ScarySai]

15 minutes ago, Neogumbercules said:

I did miss that part, thanks. Seems even weirder then. Does it recover more endurance and deal less damage when you're low on end? Because that would seem like the equilibrium part of the name to me. 

Basically, if you don't need endurance, it does bonus damage to make it still worth using.

 

The power was often skipped for being unnecessary and/or not worth it, but the buff was intended to make it akin to an AOE burst attack light lightning rod and shield charge, the nerf in this build makes it more akin to a spammable AOE other sets have with about 5x the cooldown.  I'd rather drop it to fit fireball in the build. The pendulum has swung too far the other way, now.

Edited February 29, 2020 by ScarySai

[Neogumbercules]

5 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Basically, if you don't need endurance, it does bonus damage to make it still worth using.

 

The power was often skipped for being unnecessary and/or not worth it, the nerf sort of has me considering that again, as I'd rather drop it to fit fireball in the build. The pendulum has swung too far the other way, now.

Well I'm glad it's still in beta then of course. It seems really half baked. If the idea is to make it a viable AoE in a set lacking in AoE I'd say they had it close before, but way off now. 

[TheMuna]

6 hours ago, WindDemon21 said:

Please make soul drains recharge 90 seconds to line up with DE. The off time is beyond annoying and forces max recharge building for DM to minimize the difference. Especially since we know nobody is going to use either without the other.

Soul drain is already the best build up power. We can't ask for any more there. Please don't ask them to change it.

[TheMuna]

55 minutes ago, ScarySai said:

Basically, if you don't need endurance, it does bonus damage to make it still worth using.

 

The power was often skipped for being unnecessary and/or not worth it, but the buff was intended to make it akin to an AOE burst attack light lightning rod and shield charge, the nerf in this build makes it more akin to a spammable AOE other sets have with about 5x the cooldown.  I'd rather drop it to fit fireball in the build. The pendulum has swung too far the other way, now.

People skip it? I've seen it described as one of the defining powers of the set when it was removed for stalkers. I always 6-slot either as a bonus AOE jab or as an end boost if I'm fighting enemies with drain. My endurance is fine in the end game generally but having the extra AOE ( I keep it slotted for damage) and a back-up plan is important.

Edited February 29, 2020 by TheMuna
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