Focused Feedback: New IO Sets (Build 3)

[The Curator]

1 hour ago, Vooded said:

Another option might be to keep the original bombardment, but make the proc unique. 

 

Leaves us with a great set and solves the stackability concern. 

Damage procs aren't unique (outside of sets where all pieces are unique) so the proc would need to change to something like chance for Immobilize or chance for KnockUp (but there's already a TAOE set with Chance to KnockDown) or some other effect.

[DR_Mechano]

I think the main problem is that AoE defense is MASSIVELY overabundant compared to Ranged Defense. The Winter IOs all have at least some AoE defense due to them having +def to Fire/Cold as their final set bonus. I'd go so far as to say that you're often left grabbing at straws to try to fit ranged defense in some builds. We also have examples like Obliteration that offers 5% recharge AND 3.75% melee (and can also be slotted multiple times) so having Bombardment as the Targeted AoE version of Obliteration with 5% recharge and 3.75% ranged defense would have made it a highly competitive set without the need to split it off into two separate IO sets, one with ranged defense and the other with recharge.

Edited March 5, 2020 by DR_Mechano

[Mikewho]

53 minutes ago, DR_Mechano said:

I think the main problem is that AoE defense is MASSIVELY overabundant compared to Ranged Defense. The Winter IOs all have at least some AoE defense due to them having +def to Fire/Cold as their final set bonus. I'd go so far as to say that you're often left grabbing at straws to try to fit ranged defense in some builds. We also have examples like Obliteration that offers 5% recharge AND 3.75% melee (and can also be slotted multiple times) so having Bombardment as the Targeted AoE version of Obliteration with 5% recharge and 3.75% ranged defense would have made it a highly competitive set without the need to split it off into two separate IO sets, one with ranged defense and the other with recharge.

Exactly this. Really can't stress this enough.

[Vanden]

8 hours ago, The Curator said:

• Bombardment (Proposal A)
  • Change Acc/Dmg/Rech to Dmg/End/Rech, and Acc/Dmg/End/Rech to Acc/Dmg/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/End/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 42.4% Acc, 96.7% Dmg, 42.4% End, 88.07% Rech.
    • Change from current version: -18.6% Acc, +0.39% Dmg, +2.6% End, +2.32% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some accuracy to bring the recharge back to the first revision.
• Bombardment (Proposal B)
  • Change Acc/End/Rech to Acc/Rech.
    • New set pieces: Dmg, Dmg/Rech, Acc/Rech, Acc/Dmg/Rech, Dmg/End/Rech, Proc.
    • Post ED: 66.3% Acc, 96.31% Dmg, 18.6% End, 89.96% Rech.
    • Change from current version: +5.3% Acc, -21.2% End, +4.21% Rech
  • Increase fifth set bonus to 6.25% recharge.
  • This trades some endurance reduction to bring the recharge back to the first revision.

I don't like either of these Bombardment proposals. For the first, in order to hit a +3 enemy 95% of the time, you need about 100% accuracy enhancement, and with only ~40% in the power plus the set bonus Bombardment gives, you need about 50% more global acc, which is a lot. With the 61% you get in the current iteration, that means your global acc bonus only needs to be around 30% more from other sources, much more reasonable. And +4 enemies are gonna need even more. As for the second, the vast majority of characters need a good amount of end reduction in their attacks to avoid running out, and 18.6% is not a lot. That's about what you get from a +2 DO. And unlike with Accuracy, end discount set bonuses are virtually nonexistent, so you have to get it in your enhancement values.

[...]

2 hours ago, The Curator said:

Damage procs aren't unique (outside of sets where all pieces are unique) so the proc would need to change to something like chance for Immobilize or chance for KnockUp (but there's already a TAOE set with Chance to KnockDown) or some other effect.

Or maybe a small damage buff, tAoE version of the decimation unique?

 

The original version of decimation was extremely compelling exactly because it had recharge and ranged defense.

 

That said, I'm not entirely convinced that the ranged defense and recharge need to split; obliteration exists. And to get 5 copies of any set 6 set bonus you need to use 30 slots. That a lot of slots. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Vooded
Grammar

[Bopper]

7 hours ago, parabola said:

Agree about the name. Something with the word 'extension' or 'reach' or similar in it?

My suggestion is Air Interdiction as it fits perfectly with long range with the purpose of range defense. I'll post the wiki definition below, as it can describe it better than I can, but essentially it is an operational mission to defeat an enemy while outside that enemy's threat radius.

 

Air interdiction (AI), also known as deep air support (DAS), is the use of preventive tactical bombing aircraft attacks against enemy targets that are not an immediate threat, in order to delay, disrupt, or hinder later enemy engagement of friendly forces

[Bopper]

1 hour ago, Vanden said:

I don't like either of these Bombardment proposals. For the first, in order to hit a +3 enemy 95% of the time, you need about 100% accuracy enhancement, and with only ~40% in the power plus the set bonus Bombardment gives, you need about 50% more global acc, which is a lot. With the 61% you get in the current iteration, that means your global acc bonus only needs to be around 30% more from other sources, much more reasonable. And +4 enemies are gonna need even more. As for the second, the vast majority of characters need a good amount of end reduction in their attacks to avoid running out, and 18.6% is not a lot. That's about what you get from a +2 DO. And unlike with Accuracy, end discount set bonuses are virtually nonexistent, so you have to get it in your enhancement values.

You bring up good points. Personally, I like option A if they are going to increase it back to a 6.25% recharge bonus. But overall, I probably prefer the 5% option with the enhancement structure it has now.

[Parabola]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

My suggestion is Air Interdiction as it fits perfectly with long range with the purpose of range defense. I'll post the wiki definition below, as it can describe it better than I can, but essentially it is an operational mission to defeat an enemy while outside that enemy's threat radius.

 

Air interdiction (AI), also known as deep air support (DAS), is the use of preventive tactical bombing aircraft attacks against enemy targets that are not an immediate threat, in order to delay, disrupt, or hinder later enemy engagement of friendly forces

I'm currently quite taken with Broadside but yours has more reasoning behind it.

[Vanden]

I can see how having recharge and ranged defense in a set that is easy to slot 5 times could be too strong, but how easy is it to 6-slot 5 targeted AoE sets in practice? I think the most common number of targeted AoEs in sets is 2 in Blast sets, though there are outliers like Assault Rifle and Water Blast. I have to guess that a fairly large portion of the builds that can get 5 powers that can slot targeted AoE sets will be using powers like AoE immobs to mule the slots, and if they put Bombardments in them they’ll be getting little value out of those slots outside of the set bonuses.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Vanden

[Bopper]

3 minutes ago, parabola said:

I'm currently quite taken with Broadside but yours has more reasoning behind it.

Broadside makes me think of a melee set, if anything. I can't think of an example of being broadsided by a long range attack. Maybe Collateral Damage is more fitting, but it doesnt sound like a set name.

[Parabola]

2 minutes ago, Bopper said:

Broadside makes me think of a melee set, if anything. I can't think of an example of being broadsided by a long range attack. Maybe Collateral Damage is more fitting, but it doesnt sound like a set name.

I was thinking as in the volley of cannon fire from a ship - ranged but fairly close and spread out. Sounds kind of appropriate for cones.

[Caulderone]

11 hours ago, The Curator said:

• Shrapnel
  • Remove the Resistance bonus, split the Defense bonus, and increase the damage bonus. The new bonuses would look like this:
    • 2: Improves your Regeneration by 10%.
    • 3: Increases energy and negative energy defense by 1.25% and ranged defense by 0.625%.
    • 4:  Increases damage by 3%.
    • 5: Improves the accuracy of all of your powers by 9%.
    • 6: Increases ranged defense by 3.13% and energy and negative energy defense by 1.565%.
  • This makes it possible to get some Ranged Defense by 3-slotting this set, and leaves the option to fully slot it if you want to get all of it, making this set the choice for characters building towards Ranged Defense.
  • The 0.625%/3.13% split was chosen so this set could stack with Thunderstrike bonuses without triggering the rule of 5; that set uses a 1.25%/2.5% split.

 

I kinda like the idea of having an equivalent to Thunderstrike like this.

[...]

42 minutes ago, Vanden said:

I can see how having recharge and ranged defense in a set that is easy to slot 5 times could be too strong, but how easy is it to 6-slot 5 targeted AoE sets in practice? I think the most common number of targeted AoEs in sets is 2 in Blast sets, though there are outliers like Assault Rifle and Water Blast. I have to guess that a fairly large portion of the builds that can get 5 powers that can slot targeted AoE sets will be using powers like AoE immobs to mule the slots, and if they put Bombardments in them they’ll be getting little value out of those slots outside of the set bonuses.

This. 

 

Let's take a dominator inspired example.

 

Coercive persuasion (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots)

Dominator ATO (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots) 

Expedient reinforcement (6.25% recharge, 3.13% ranged defense, 5 added slots)

Sniper set (7.5% recharge, 2.5% ranged defense, 4 added slots)

Basiliks gaze (7.5% recharge, 1.25% ranged defense, 3 added slots)

 

For a total of 41.25% recharge, and 16.88% ranged defense, at the cost of 22 added slots. 

 

That's arguably a better deal on set bonuses than what 5x the original bombardment offers.

 

The point is, the set bonuses from the OG bombardment are very much in line with currently available (though unique) sets. 

[Parabola]

3 minutes ago, Vooded said:

This. 

 

Let's take a dominator inspired example.

 

Coercive persuasion (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots)

Dominator ATO (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots) 

Expedient reinforcement (6.25% recharge, 3.13% ranged defense, 5 added slots)

Sniper set (7.5% recharge, 2.5% ranged defense, 4 added slots)

Basiliks gaze (7.5% recharge, 1.25% ranged defense, 3 added slots)

 

For a total of 41.25% recharge, and 16.88% ranged defense, at the cost of 22 added slots. 

 

That's arguably a better deal on set bonuses than what 5x the original bombardment offers.

 

The point is, the set bonuses from the OG bombardment are very much in line with currently available (though unique) sets. 

But one of those is purple (and the only purple that has defence to my knowledge?) and another an ATO. As you say another is unique and it's not like you are ever going to be able to slot more than one snipe. I think it would be a shame to have only one new taoe set and for it be rendered unique to pump up the set bonuses. We're not exactly spoiled for choice with quality taoe sets at the minute.

[...]

1 minute ago, parabola said:

But one of those is purple (and the only purple that has defence to my knowledge?) and another an ATO. As you say another is unique and it's not like you are ever going to be able to slot more than one snipe. I think it would be a shame to have only one new taoe set and for it be rendered unique to pump up the set bonuses. We're not exactly spoiled for choice with quality taoe sets at the minute.

Yeah it's not the fairest comparison, but my point is that it's not way out of line with what people can currently do. 

 

Honestly anything new for taoe will likely be an improvement. 

[Bopper]

2 minutes ago, parabola said:

But one of those is purple (and the only purple that has defence to my knowledge?) and another an ATO. As you say another is unique and it's not like you are ever going to be able to slot more than one snipe. I think it would be a shame to have only one new taoe set and for it be rendered unique to pump up the set bonuses. We're not exactly spoiled for choice with quality taoe sets at the minute.

ATOs and a Purple Confuse power are not great comparisons either, as they are too specific. Everyone (ranged, anyways) has a TAoE, many with 3-4 options available. Typically 2-3 in blast sets, 1 in epics and 1 in origin pools. Plenty of options to chase recharge/range def if Bombardment retained both.

[Erydanus]

Instead of Shrapnel, what about Fusillade? That describes a series of missiles or bullets being shot so you've got something that implies a massive ranged air strike. Perfect for Rain of Arrows, Thunderous Blast, or you everyday garden variety fireball.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that while a lot of top-tier signature characters from the hero and villain side named the initial wave of IOs, and a few later were named after Vanguard characters, the 2nd tier characters are an untapped pool of names. We have Positron's Blast, we don't have Dr. Aeon's Assault. The Midnighters haven't been represented at all yet, either. It's really nice Synapse got a nod in this group of IOs, but Valkyrie, Silver Mantis, Montague Castanella, Mercedes Sheldon, War Witch, Ice Mistral, Citadel and many others could definitely contribute sets.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Erydanus
2nd suggestion

[Laenan]

8 hours ago, DR_Mechano said:

I think the main problem is that AoE defense is MASSIVELY overabundant compared to Ranged Defense. The Winter IOs all have at least some AoE defense due to them having +def to Fire/Cold as their final set bonus. I'd go so far as to say that you're often left grabbing at straws to try to fit ranged defense in some builds. We also have examples like Obliteration that offers 5% recharge AND 3.75% melee (and can also be slotted multiple times) so having Bombardment as the Targeted AoE version of Obliteration with 5% recharge and 3.75% ranged defense would have made it a highly competitive set without the need to split it off into two separate IO sets, one with ranged defense and the other with recharge.

I agree with this- the comparison to obliteration is apt.

[Zed]

I hope it's on topic... May i suggest something for the sets icons ?

- Keep Shrapnel's icon (unless it changes name later), which is for now Bombardment's

- Change the one for Bombardment instead (please see below)
I'm no pro at all regarding digital graphics so i'm sure many here can do better than that. Anyway, you may like it 🙂

PSD provided.
Looking forward to seeing what your take on these two is going to be !

 

 

 

 

bombardment_v2.psd

[oedipus_tex]

8 hours ago, Vooded said:

Coercive persuasion (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots)  - This set is unique and only 6 powersets in the game can slot it

Dominator ATO (10% recharge, 5% ranged defense, 5 added slots) - Each of the squishy classes has a unique ATO with +Recharge and +Ranged they can slot one time

Expedient reinforcement (6.25% recharge, 3.13% ranged defense, 5 added slots)- Sixth slot is unique, Ranged defense can be obtained only 1 time

Sniper set (7.5% recharge, 2.5% ranged defense, 4 added slots) - No set has more than 1 Snipe

Basiliks gaze (7.5% recharge, 1.25% ranged defense, 3 added slots) - Works only in Hold powers, the +1.25% Ranged defense competes with Thunderstrike

 

See above RE: existing set bonuses.

 

I personally believe our goal shouldn't be to make obtaining both Recharge and Ranged Defense trivial. I especially believe this when the source of the buffed stats are Aoe Powers which are inherently more desirable than single target blasts. If they decide to split the Ranged defense bonuses in Shrapnel, I think they should mirror Thunderstrike with +1..25% Defense at 3, +2.50% at 6. Or they could have made the older 6th slot unique.

 

I personally prefer how they changed it though. You can slot for Ranged defense with target AoEs, where you couldn't before. That alone is a big change.

Edited March 6, 2020 by oedipus_tex

[Gorgar]

Personally I love the idea of a targeted AoE that's pretty much Thunderstrike, and appreciate the effort not to collide with its ranged defense bonuses (especially since I'll sometimes slot four sets of Thunderstrike + a Zephyr pair and a Gaussian's set).  I also like Artillery as a new name for Shrapnel (and agree that a new name is probably a good idea).  Broadside is good too.

 

But naming something after War Witch gets my vote.

 

 

[The Curator]

Something to explicitly mention is that ATO and Winter sets were originally cash shop items, and their bonuses are intentionally too good because they sold for real money. There's no intention to make new sets to hit that level of power.

 

Instead, at least for now, we are focusing explicitly on sets that fill specific holes (no damage in EndMod sets, bad Targeted AOE sets) without falling into powercreep. @oedipus_tex made an extremely good case why the original Bombardment was too good, and the comparisons being mostly to unique sets just proves their point. We want to add flexibility without taking the easy route of making a set that is just better than anything else available. This is obviously going to be frustrating at times, but I think there's enough room for new sets that will open up build choices without being obvious must-have choices.

[Vanden]

16 minutes ago, The Curator said:

We want to add flexibility without taking the easy route of making a set that is just better than anything else available. This is obviously going to be frustrating at times, but I think there's enough room for new sets that will open up build choices without being obvious must-have choices.

Okay but to be fair it would be hard to make a targeted AoE set that is good while not being better than anything already available

[...]

11 hours ago, oedipus_tex said:

 

See above RE: existing set bonuses.

 

I personally believe our goal shouldn't be to make obtaining both Recharge and Ranged Defense trivial. I especially believe this when the source of the buffed stats are Aoe Powers which are inherently more desirable than single target blasts. If they decide to split the Ranged defense bonuses in Shrapnel, I think they should mirror Thunderstrike with +1..25% Defense at 3, +2.50% at 6. Or they could have made the older 6th slot unique.

 

I personally prefer how they changed it though. You can slot for Ranged defense with target AoEs, where you couldn't before. That alone is a big change.

Just to reiterate, I acknowledged in a later post that this was not an entirely fair comparison. 

 

And I agree, having ranged defense on TAoEs would be a big improvement. 

[Mikewho]

11 hours ago, The Curator said:

Something to explicitly mention is that ATO and Winter sets were originally cash shop items, and their bonuses are intentionally too good because they sold for real money. There's no intention to make new sets to hit that level of power.

 

Instead, at least for now, we are focusing explicitly on sets that fill specific holes (no damage in EndMod sets, bad Targeted AOE sets) without falling into powercreep. @oedipus_tex made an extremely good case why the original Bombardment was too good, and the comparisons being mostly to unique sets just proves their point. We want to add flexibility without taking the easy route of making a set that is just better than anything else available. This is obviously going to be frustrating at times, but I think there's enough room for new sets that will open up build choices without being obvious must-have choices.

I have no argument with that. However, I feel the new sets simply fall below that threshold for ranged characters. In the current system, for better or worse, taking a set with no recharge has to have a huge benefit to be at all worth it. I'll just never take Shrapnel, because it has no recharge and not enough payoff from the other bonuses to make up for that. And Bombardment with only AOE defense has not enough benefit for ranged characters. I could have totally understood reducing the ranged defense it originally had. But changing it to AOE has made it a melee-only thing. Which would be fine, if Shrapnel had some recharge (even just a little).