Weekly Discussion 41: ATO Sets!

[GM Miss]

Weekly discussion 41 - Week 3/08/20-3/14/20:

⚔️ YOU VOTED: It's time for ATO Sets (Archetype Origin Enhancements)! ⚔️

 

❓ Things to think about:

 

>Here is a link to the ATO's: https://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Archetype_Enhancements

>What ATO sets are underpowered at the moment?

>What ATO sets would you like to see tweaked?

>If you could make a new ATO set, what would it look like? If there are some good ones, I will add them to my post for the week with your name attached!

Don't just use these prompts, talk about anything Incarnate Powers ATO Sets (Copy and Paste, why do you want to hurt me?)!

 

Let's Chat 😄

Edited March 9, 2020 by GM Miss

[VileTerror]

Despite some folks thinking it was a joke, I posted up a thread proposing Archetype Inherent-changing ATOs.

https://forums.homecomingservers.com/topic/15464-third-class-atos-game-changers

Since crafting new Archetypes entirely from scratch is a long drawn-out procedure, with a lot of long-term tweaking and explicit impact to multiple facets of gameplay, a potential alternative would be to lean more heavily on the ATO system to get more variety and mileage out of existing Archetypes.

 

As for existing ATOs; I think the Stalker ATOs are the gold standard by which other ATO Procs and Passive Effects should be measured by.

[SaddestGhost]

I've never been fond of the Dom or Controller ATOs.   I find both Fiery Orb and Energy Font underwhelming for an ATO proc.  Both produce a mag 2 stun and damage aura around them (correct me if I'm wrong here).  For Fire, Dark, Earth, and Grav, that's a bit handy in helping overpower a boss with your every spawn control + FO/EF.  For the others, it can lock down a minion, which you've likely already controlled.  For a more even experience across all sets a hold aura would have made more sense.  It also has some odd quirks that make it less appealing to me.  It draws aggro, it spawns at the caster's location, and it can't seem to fly.   As a player that loves Mind those first two are a bit of a downer.  For what it is (some splash damage and minor control), I think it could have been implemented without the pet. 

 

In comparison to some of the other ATOs that are real game changers (Stalkers, Blasters, and MMs), these are pretty lackluster.  On a controller, for instance, the Lockdown: +2 mag makes a big impact in your AoE hold and feels like a significant boost for the AT, but with the PPM formula its a bit lackluster in single target holds.  A global chance for increased mag in your holds, would have been nice.  For Doms, my first instinct is to suggest a chance to instantly recharge Domination but finding the right proc rate for that might be difficult. 

[Redlynne]

2 hours ago, GM Miss said:

>What ATO sets are underpowered at the moment?

>What ATO sets would you like to see tweaked?

Mastermind ATOs

 

They only fit into 3-4 powers (at most!) in the primary powerset, and those primaries that don't feature a pet summon as their Level 18 power can only slot Mastermind ATOs into their 3 Pet Summoning powers.  Considering everything else we have to somehow cram into those 3 powers (with a shoehorn!) that is incredibly limiting!

 

The only excuse that I can find for this limitation is ... well ... the Mastermind ATOs are coded as Recharge Intensive Pet Sets (only) and therefore can only be slotted into Pets ... because ... Pet Aura procs???

 

Seriously ... REMOVE THIS LIMITATION.

I'd be fine with allowing the Mastermind ATOs to be slotted into any Mastermind Pet Summoning power (Level 18 primary and the T1/T2/T3 pet powers as already existing) while also broadening out which powers they can be slotted into to include the 3 personal attacks in the Mastermind primary powersets.  That way, we don't have to sacrifice PRECIOUS(!!) Pet Slots to the Mastermind ATO sets and can instead take personal attacks from our primaries (even just as set mules) and slot them up with Mastermind ATOs so we can have some, you know ... VARIETY ... in our Mastermind builds that use Mastermind ATOs.

 

So instead of being limited to only 3-4 powers per primary, instead you'd be able to slot Mastermind ATOs into 6-7 powers per primary.

 

S imple

E asy

E ffective

 

... not being done ...

 

... yet ...

[Coyotedancer]

I ❤️ my Stalker ATOs... 'Pretty fond of the Defender versions, too.

 

I just wish I had better drop luck with the Super Packs. 

My results are usually pretty dire when it comes to the things actually HAVING any ATO or WInterOs in them. o_0

[VileTerror]

Good point on the Mastermind Slotting conundrum, Red.

Given that there was a suggestion for Kheldians to get extra Slots for their tri-forms, I know I would not baulk at getting extra Slots for the Henchpet Powers!  I know, I know . . . can of tentacles.

[Caulderone]

3 hours ago, GM Miss said:

Don't just use these prompts, talk about anything Incarnate Powers!

 

😄

I think that was supposed to be changed to ATOs instead of incarnate powers?

 

On topic:

The Dominator ATOs need to be slottable outside of the control powers.  Way too limiting.  Same problem Redlynne noted on the MM ones, basically.

[macskull]

The lack of damage procs in the Sentinel and Defender ATO sets kinda sucks since the higher-damage ranged ATs get them (though that's really more an issue with the fact that there's only one non-unique ranged damage proc).

Edited March 9, 2020 by macskull

[Redlynne]

Actually ... I think I want to revise and extend my remarks above into a more broadly consistent and cohesive pattern (unified field theorycrafting).

Change ALL Mastermind primary powers to fit the following pattern:

 

Beast Mastery, Mercenaries, Ninjas and Robotics can slot:

• Ranged sets, Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T1 (Level 1), T3 (Level 2)
• Target AoE sets, Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T5 (Level 8 )
• Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T2 (Level 1), T6 (Level 12), T8 (Level 26)

 

Demon Summoning and Thugs can slot:

• Ranged sets, Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T1 (Level 1), T3 (Level 2)
• Target AoE sets, Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T5 (Level 8 )
• Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T2 (Level 1), T6 (Level 12), T7 (Level 18), T8 (Level 26)

 

Necromancy can slot:

• Ranged sets, Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T1 (Level 1), T3 (Level 2), T5 (Level 8 )
• Pet Sets, Recharge Intensive Pet Sets and Archetype Origin Sets into: T2 (Level 1), T6 (Level 12), T7 (Level 18), T7 (Level 18), T8 (Level 26)

 

Basic idea ... add the Pet sets and ATOs to the personal attacks for Masterminds so they can be slotted in more places than JUST the Pet Summoning powers.  The enhancements in the Pet sets simply add accuracy/damage/endurance (and recharge for the Recharge Intensive Pet sets and the ATO sets).  The Pet procs simply have the Mastermind create a PBAoE field around themselves that grants the effect(s) to all Pets within Supremacy radius and do not "NEED" to be explicitly tied to a summoning power in order to function (at all).

Edited March 9, 2020 by Redlynne

[VileTerror]

As a Traps Mastermind, I know I would certainly appreciate getting to slot some of those ATOs in to my Secondaries.  So, alternatively or in addition to Red's latest suggestion, how about allowing Mastermind ATOs to be popped in to Secondary Sets too?

 

While it looks like the Masterminds Week was a long while ago, before we even knew these talks were going on.  Yet in relation to this topic and addressing the ATOs, perhaps the ability to put Slots in Supremacy that will specifically only allow the Aura Proc/Passive Enhancements.

[Redlynne]

45 minutes ago, VileTerror said:

Yet in relation to this topic and addressing the ATOs, perhaps the ability to put Slots in Supremacy that will specifically only allow the Aura Proc/Passive Enhancements.

Denied.  The game engine doesn't allow that degree of specificity.  It's all or nothing with sets.

[GM Miss]

1 hour ago, Caulderone said:

I think that was supposed to be changed to ATOs instead of incarnate powers?

 

On topic:

The Dominator ATOs need to be slottable outside of the control powers.  Way too limiting.  Same problem Redlynne noted on the MM ones, basically.

I have no idea what you are talking about, it was ATO sets the whole time..... 🙂

[SeraphimKensai]

Maybe change the Essence Transfer ATO from a global heal, to a global Mez protection to help Kheldians from getting mezzed. That seems like it could be more beneficial than and superfluous heal.

[Eldyem]

This might be a somewhat unpopular opinion, but I really wish that the pure damage procs (Blaster's Wrath, Will of the Controller, Malice of the Corruptor) were something else. I'd hate if they were changed, but it's really disappointing that some characters get something that really ties into their identity and then these three get this. I hope that any future ATOs skip over pure damage procs and lean into identity building aspects.

I think Scrapper's strike is kind of secretly mediocre; any given crit bonus is essentially the same amount of bonus as damage, and I don't think people would slot a 3% damage bonus. The Brute/Scrapper/Stalker balance is super precarious, but I feel like this ATO could afford to get bumped up a little bit. It's just kind of lame when you think about how ATOs make Stalkers into on-demand crit machines and then Scrappers get... this. It's also less interesting than the other three global ATOs (Stalker's Build Up recharge, Kheldian Heal, and Arachnos Toxic Damage proc) and I already think the non-Stalker ones are awkward and kind of boring.

Dominator procs are both interesting in my opinion (I LIKE fiery orb even if it's not that great) but there's just nowhere particularly good to put them. I don't know if letting me slot them into damaging attacks is the right choice, though. I like the juxtaposition between the Defender heal and Corruptor +End, which I think provides a little bit of identity to two Archetypes who are very similar. Controller sets provide some interesting bonuses, but they can also conflict with slotting my "attacks" for damage; I kind of wish there was damage built into both of these Archetypes' ATOs, which would make me feel a lot more compelled to actually slot them.

I personally think it would be interesting if we could somehow use the code that prevents Regular and Superior ATOs from being on the same build to instead create mutually exclusive procs with interesting effects; something like a Defender providing an unslotted Maneuvers level Defense aura vs a modest Recharge aura (two popular effects). I think it's kind of wishful thinking, but the thing I like about ATOs is that they enhance Archetype identity; any new ones should do that, but so many people have different views of what each AT's identity should be that it becomes muddy without introducing choice.

[VileTerror]

I can't speak to the popularity of the opinion you expressed in your first paragraph, Eldyem; but I can say that I agree with it!

[Redlynne]

That's the hilarious thing about the Controller ATOs ... trying to find a NON-damaging power to slot them into that doesn't feel like you're wasting the slots.  Might be worthwhile to inventory the Controller primary powers to get a ratio of damaging mez powers to non-damaging mez powers, to get an idea of just how constraining having Controller ATOs is on a Controller for finding powers that the sets can be slotted into without excessive "waste" of modifiers.

 

In other words, how many powers in each powerset make "good fits/matches" for the Controller ATOs.  I know that for me it's usually the Level 18 AoE Hold power plus "something else" and that's it.  For powersets like Mind Control where you have mez powers that don't draw aggro, having a damage proc in the set is a complete deal breaker (I'm looking at you Confuse sets that keep wanting to add damage procs!) for those powers.

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, Redlynne said:

That's the hilarious thing about the Controller ATOs ... trying to find a NON-damaging power to slot them into that doesn't feel like you're wasting the slots.  Might be worthwhile to inventory the Controller primary powers to get a ratio of damaging mez powers to non-damaging mez powers, to get an idea of just how constraining having Controller ATOs is on a Controller for finding powers that the sets can be slotted into without excessive "waste" of modifiers.

I’ll echo this.

 

As a controller who mostly solos, slotting your single target immobilize and hold for damage is a must if you want to complete missions at anything but a glacial pace. Both also cycle fast enough that once they’ve got an IO set in them you can stack the hold 3-4 times on a single target without needing hold enhancements in it.

 

And before anyone suggests I need to just team more so my damage won’t be an issue allow me to give you two words; Grav/Storm.

 

In the current group meta I’d have to turn off my singularity, hurricane, tornado and lightning storm and not use Propel (since I refuse to give up my six-slotted Thunderstrike set bonuses by slotting the idiotic knockdown proc*) and everything melts before my controls matter anyway. I’m basically down to my ST hold, immobilize and the medicine pool.

 

Just about every control set has at least two damaging controls. What I’d like to see is an ATO set worth slotting into those.

 

If you wanted to make that set game-changing like some of the other ATOs; skip the proc entirely and give the set both damage AND control enhancement in the same set. For example;

 

acc/dam/control

acc/end/recharge

dam/control/endurance

dam/control/recharge

acc/dam/control/endurance

acc/dam/control/recharge

 

As it stands, I’d have to six-slot grav distortion field and maybe wormhole if I actually wanted to use the current ATO sets, and I have so many more useful powers that need the slots instead. 

 

So whereas my scrappers and blasters and even defenders have to decide which of their many powers will best employ their ATO procs... the controller ATOs are utterly useless to me and I’ll be skipping them entirely.

 

* sidebar: I don’t know how feasible it is, but I’d like to suggest a P2W utility power that converts all knockback to knockdown. Given the price of those knockdown procs everyone expects you to slot in everything, you could set it at 10 million inf and it’d be a bargain for those who insist on slotting those procs and a good inf sink to boot. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Chris24601

[Seigmoraig]

The Soldiers of Arachnos ATO has one fun one (Global Proc woo) and one super lame one (Chance for terrorize boo-lame-boo). Dominion of Arachnos could fun if it followed the example of the other set and made the terrorize proc global too ! Since both are relatively weak compared to other ATO sets ( Stalker, Scrapper ) I doubt it would break the balance much.

 

Like others have expressed, Mastermind ATOs fitting only in pet slots (that need major frankenslotting to be good in the first place) could use a change but I think that this is a symptom of a larger problem with Masterminds. Some of those (what 6, 7 ?) pet aura buff frankenslot bonuses could be baked into the Mastermind Supremacy passive to free up some of these slots.

[Redlynne]

32 minutes ago, Seigmoraig said:

The Soldiers of Arachnos ATO has one fun one (Global Proc woo) and one super lame one (Chance for terrorize boo-lame-boo).

Both are fine.  All you have to do is 5-slot the Terrorize proc set into Venom Grenade so it's working through a 20ft radius Target AoE.  Good to go.

Alternatively, if you want it to proc more(?), you can 5-slot the Terrorize proc set into Frag Grenade (leaving 1 slot open for a Force Feedback proc) so it's working through a 10ft radius Target AoE.  Good to go.

[nihilii]

I find +absorb ATOs underwhelming, on Tankers and Sentinels (and Defenders I guess? haven't used it enough and not on teams enough to know how well the PBAoE works).

For Tankers I'd love to see it replaced with a -20% res proc, high PPM and all. Basically this would be a way to get back Bruising. But perhaps that'd be broken in terms of damage output, on top of the recent buffs.

 

For Sentinels I like @macskull's idea of a damage proc. People are shouting left and right Sentinels don't do enough damage, that's one way to address the concern. 😉

[tidge]

I am also annoyed about the limited choices of where to slot MM ATOs.

 

I'm also unhappy that the Tanker ATO only exist for the secondary set, and that the set bonuses aren't particularly exciting for tanks that want to focus on the primary set. Surely something could have been developed to help both Defense and Resistance based tanks? I feel like I'd almost rather have one ATO for each than what the Tanker gets now.

[wolfshadow31]

As for tweaking, I posted this in the bug forums...but there is a problem with the Scrapper ATOs slotted on savage melee characters.  When using Rending Flurry, and slotted with Superior Scrapper's Strike...you lose the set bonuses from the io's slotted in that power on use of the power.  In my case, the most noticeable was the 5% defence drop.  When I switched the ATO sets around, and slotted the Superior Critical Strikes in the same power, everything was fine.  Link to bug post below.  Originally I thought it was an s/l bug, but after testing...it' seems to be an  ATO problem(at least for savage melee).

 

 

[Drazah Krad]

energy font for controllers would be nicer if they spawn near the targets instead of at the caster. I feel I lose out on many of its ticks watching it hover over to a mob.

 

either that or make it look more like a projectile,exploding on impact giving a minor damage,short duration stun aoe.

 

(btw stick it into your AoE immob and you can have 3-4 spawning consistently)

[subbacultchas]

48 minutes ago, Drazah Krad said:

energy font for controllers would be nicer if they spawn near the targets instead of at the caster. I feel I lose out on many of its ticks watching it hover over to a mob.

 

either that or make it look more like a projectile,exploding on impact giving a minor damage,short duration stun aoe.

 

(btw stick it into your AoE immob and you can have 3-4 spawning consistently)

Truth. I use this a lot when proccing out Plant's AOE immob.

[subbacultchas]

Ive only started messing with tanks since the recent overhauls, but I've noticed that their ATO procs just don't seem that terribly useful. The same could be said for Blaster ATO procs as well, although the ATOs themselves are just fine I think. As far as controllers go I like the ATOs, but to be honest I only six slot one of them. The other has I think a 4% dam for 2-slotting the superior version, so I tend do to 3 sets of 2-slots for that 12% overall. That works well because there's often not a good place to six slot both ATOs without losing damage.

Edited March 9, 2020 by subbacultchas