How can we buff poison? (Discussion/Suggestions)

[Bartacus]

Let me begin by saying that I think there are other powersets that are undertuned, and specifically other support powersets that are undertuned and perhaps struggling more than Poison is in the current state of the game. Powersets like Force Field and Trick Arrow struggle to find a place in the current 'meta' of the game. I am not here to discuss whether they should be buffed first or not... but merely here to discuss what I feel is an underperforming powerset: Poison. Please try to stay focused on Poison instead of referencing other powersets as being more in need. Additionally, I am talking about non-MM poison because I have no experience with Poison on MMs.

 

I believe Poison has some issues when compared to other Support sets. The main problem I see is that many do not see it as a powerset worth taking. If you want a debuff set, there are others that fill that role and do a little more. Examples:

-Radiation provides debuffs in the form of toggles. This is of course a positive and a negative, as it requires mez resistance I believe. However, you do not have to "hit" your debuff (no accuracy check). Also, Rad has solid -Regen, a self heal, and AM. For this reason, most will take Rad over Poison. -Regen is very important vs AVs and GMs which are the most important targets for debuffs.

-Cold, which is the most comparable debuff set. Cold offers similar levels of -res to entire groups, and in addition to this has the defensive toggle that gives +Def and some solid elemental +Res. Worth noting that Cold can hit -60% Res without Achilles but doesn't have the same uptime as Poison does. However, it hits multiple targets, and does not suffer as much Debuff % loss when transferring to non-defenders. (Sleet is still 30% on all ATs, Heat Loss suffers a 6% loss)

 

Poisons strengths:

-STRONG single target debuffs on Defender. 40% res debuff from Envenom. 25% more from Venemous Gas. This is without Achilles procs or other -Res procs. That's ignoring the tohit, defense, and damage debuffs which are all also significant. -Recharge from Neurotoxic breath is also strong.

-Poison Trap is a great proc monster

-Venomous Gas has 4 strong debuffs in one AoE toggle that is autohit

 

Poisons problems:

-Similar to other toggle debuffs, mezzes hurt a ton. This is particularly noticeable on Poison where its survivability requires that its debuffs are on. 

-Survivability is rough. No toggle with any kind of defensive bonus. No self heal. Some of this can be overcome with IOs, but it takes a lot more work on Poison. Every other support set in the game has one of those two things: a defensive toggle or a self heal (except for Trick Arrow which is not exactly the gold standard). 

-Poison seems considerably worse on non Defenders because while it loses a similar percentage of its debuffs as most, this is made worse by the way Envenom and Weaken work. That is, that half of the debuff 'splashes' onto nearby targets. This isn't so bad when the values are as high as they are on defenders, but on other ATs I think Poison struggles even MORE to find a reason to be chosen above other debuff sets. I do not see why you would pick poison over Cold on non-defenders... ever. (except theme, of course)

 

Some notes on Poison's identity:

I do not propose that we add some kind of self heal or defensive toggle to Poison because of the problem above, and here's why:

I think Poison's identity is STRONG debuffs. Especially STRONG single target debuffs. It has to pay a price for this strength if other debuff sets cannot match it. This is probably why it has no self heal, and no defensive toggle.

 

Here are some suggestions to make it a more survivable set without just adding a new power and making it Rad 2.0 or something:

-Give Venomous Gas some mez protection (5 protection to hold/disorient/sleep?) to the caster (not to teammates). This will allow poison to excel moreso at debuffing than other sets at the cost of defensive ability, since it can keep Venomous Gas active. 

-Buff Paralytic Poison somehow. I think the idea in putting this in was to give it some kind of CC similar to Fearsome Stare in Dark Miasma. I do not think very many people take this power, but it would be cool to see this be more useful somehow. Maybe make it do damage? or give it -Regen (~150% with 30s duration?) so that it can compete with other debuffing sets? I think either of those suggestions would make this power more unique in the support power context and would go a long way.

 

What do you think? How could poison be buffed? Or, if you don't think it should be buffed... why not? 

[Mr. Vee]

My poison/dp fendur is probably my strongest character and is one of my 2 or 3 favorites. I do think it's probably got some issues as a secondary with lower values but it should still be middling. As to the mez issue - ranged defense goes a long way there combined with the -to hit melee aura. I know no one wants to hear it but defensive amplifier will solve most of your mez issues. If not that, clarion.

 

Now I could see poison being complete junk on SOs, but then so is most everything else.

 

I certainly wouldn't complain if VG got some mez protection and a compelling reason to give paralytic a look would be welcome. Just so long as there weren't nerfs to other parts to balance changes. But i do think if we're talking about support sets being buffed it really ought to begin with TA.

[Bartacus]

14 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

My poison/dp fendur is probably my strongest character and is one of my 2 or 3 favorites. 

Yeah, I don't know what your other characters are but I have a LOT of 50s (not intended as a flex - only to make a point here)... my poison isn't in my top 10 and he's IO'd out for defense. it's underperforming compared to other debuff sets, no question.

 

14 minutes ago, Veelectric Boogaloo said:

I certainly wouldn't complain if VG got some mez protection and a compelling reason to give paralytic a look would be welcome. Just so long as there weren't nerfs to other parts to balance changes. But i do think if we're talking about support sets being buffed it really ought to begin with TA.

I mean, I did say (in bold, explicitly) that I'm not here to compare which sets need the most help. Only to suggest that poison could use a buff. I don't see why we should pay no attention to poison just because other sets need buffed. they all need to be addressed, I think. 

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Bartacus

[Mr. Vee]

a whole lot of my toons are overpowered, even quite a few of the ones i don't care for. if a team looks weak i'll pull out the poison, unless it's melee heavy in which case kin.

[Coyote]

Make poison effects contagious.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Coyote

[Blackfeather]

I do like Trickshooter's suggestions on this matter.

[Bartacus]

1 hour ago, Blackfeather said:

I do like Trickshooter's suggestions on this matter.

those are cool suggestions! i actually like that a lot.

[kelika2]

When a Poisoned Target dies it explodes and poisons nearby enemies

[Mr. Vee]

I'd like to see paralytic changed to something like ummm, concoction - an uninterruptible but long activation power that could have varying effects based on the strength of the target. the idea would be the poisoner is whipping up something specific to its target. like big damage to their weakest resist type or a big debuff of their best resist type or something of that nature. probably pie in the sky as even as a non-coder I'm guessing it'd be a bastard to work out. could be a good place to help poison's -regen weakness some too. and it could keep the hold so people who're using the original power wouldn't have to change slotting. Probably couldn't happen but i think it'd be a cool power.

 

Easier would just be to add some -regen to paralytic. or up the % in envenom to something 3 digit at least. 

[Obus Form]

1 hour ago, kelika2 said:

When a Poisoned Target dies it explodes and poisons nearby enemies

Learning from Covid-19 are we?

[kelika2]

6 minutes ago, Obus Form said:

Learning from Covid-19 are we?

babbies first outbreak happening

so cute

[Frosticus]

Poison requires melee play to be effective but offers very limited tools to survive there. 

 

Poison is my favorite set apparently. I have 2 lvl 50 poisons now. I have no other repeats and only 10 50's in my stable.

 

This game is very easy so I think I enjoy the challenge that poison presents. 

I feel the set plays quite well with mez protection and about 20% def. At that point I really start to feel confident and capable of playing aggressively. 

 

You have to play aggressive for poison to do well. If you leave melee the enemies get much stronger. if you lay off spitting venom around they pummel you. Getting mezzed is a real sore spot for the set.

 

I dont mind the small aoes. I'd add some delayed chaining to them to help them spread. 

neuro breath and paralytic are good opportunities to add some -regen or something.

Some mez protection would be nice but I dont expect it. 

[Coyote]

7 hours ago, Frosticus said:

I dont mind the small aoes. I'd add some delayed chaining to them to help them spread. 

neuro breath and paralytic are good opportunities to add some -regen or something.

 

This is what I think also... small AoEs but give them a contagion effect for 10 seconds where the effect can spread (only from the original targets, not keep spreading), that would fix the usual complaints about AoE, while also putting out a pretty unique mechanism.

 

Neurobreath at least need some buffing, especially since the cone doesn't fit as well with Venomous Gas being PBAoE. Paralytic is fine now with damage procs, but that's because all 16-second recharge powers are good with Hold damage procs. If that gets changed, then I imagine that it will be in need of improvement.

[Replacement]

I'd kinda like to see it lean into the identity of needing to be in the thick of things. Like Trickshooter's suggestion, I'd like to see Antidote splash, including the caster.  The effects don't need to be strong -- I think even Mag 3 protections are enough to avoid some basic mezzes?  That and, if needed, I could see adding a defense bonus to using one of the powers as you surround yourself in a haze that helps to conceal your actual position.  It would also make sense to splash Alkaloid, even if non-primary targets just got a +Regen or HoT instead of a direct heal.  

 

It's also weird to me that they have a -Regen power, and that it's literally 1/20th the strength of Traps' -Regen power.  I cannot think of a set more fitting of Regen-Wrecking.

 

Other than that, just minor tuning.  Reducing the casting time for Weaken is a big one for me.

[arcane]

Agree poison doesn’t need buffs. One of the stronger debuff sets without a doubt. 3 of my 20 50’s are OP poisons :D.

[Razor Cure]

12 hours ago, Coyote said:

Neurobreath at least need some buffing, especially since the cone doesn't fit as well with Venomous Gas being PBAoE.

Maybe NB could be a PBaoe? Or rename it too, like you are more releasing poison, rather than breathing it out.

I know other threads have talking about ally buffs on the caster, but Poison's would make more sense than most. An antidote, I CANT use on myself? Wtf is that about?

Also, the 2 debuffs..the splash is nice (way better than nothing) but the radius is stupid small, and as other said, the values just arent enough on non fenders. Discounting 'proper' single target debuffs (sonic siphon etc), every other aoe debuff has a much bigger radius.

What about Weaken/Envenom have increased splash effect/radius/chaining (infection spread chance) WHEN said target is under the effect of Noxious Gas? That would encourage being in melee to poison as many people as possible.

I also like the 'exploding' corpse idea. Perhaps a low chance to explode, with some toxic dot and the explosion itself is an aoe debuff? That would really highlight pilling the toxins on a mob, till they cant handle anymore.

ParaPoison..at LEAST give it a high damage dot (like abyssal gaze), perhaps with another slow/-rech hammered in (since you know, they cant move).

[Greycat]

My only complaint with Poison is the speed of the toss-heal. Either it needs to be faster or heal more to make up for the time it takes.

[Frosticus]

I like retaliatory damage too. 

I cant think of it being used anywhere else.

 

a poisoned target could take some damage everytime they attack (ala energy transfer).

[carroto]

My only experience with Poison was on a Mastermind.  The small AoEs meant that I couldn't hit most mobs when they were spread out.  Without being able to debuff the enemies all I was left with to protect my henchmen was the slow heal, which wasn't up to the task.  The constant resummoning of henchmen as they kept getting wiped out by non-debuffed alphas was too much.  I walked away from Poison and never looked back.

[Bossk_Hogg]

Poison needs some adjustments. Yes, it eventually gets pretty badass, but basically every set gets badass with enough IO's. I'd love to see the early experience improved before you get 20-30% positional defenses, tough/etc. It's a set that favors melee, but has no self heal or mez protection. The splash AE is pretty small, so it has a really hard time with groups prior to venomous gas. And given that procs are under the nerf microscope, its proc monster ability in poison trap and paralytic poison shouldnt hold it back from other small improvements. Moreover, not everyone uses procs, and SPECIFIC IO slotting isn't a balance mechanism. 

 

I'd like to see some kind of minor splash healing, caster included, for Alkaloid. Doesn't have to be amazing, but enough to help offset some splash damage just from being in melee and catching additional AE damage.

 

Increase the AE size on the splash for Envenom/Weaken to 12. This is still 20% smaller than rad's two toggles, but will help early on in group play without requiring herding. 

 

Change Neurotoxic Breath from a cone to a targeted AE. This plays better with Venomous Gas requiring melee positioning, and the cone is pretty narrow anyways. Up the recharge if need be, and maybe include some -regen. Its 2.67 second animation  could also be reviewed, as that's a long time for something with relatively low impact.

 

Allow Elixer of Life to be used with lesser effect on a living target. I think all ally rez powers need to be evaluated to make them more compelling choices and worth slotting. Howling Twilight, Rebirth, and Defibrilate should be the model. 

[Frosticus]

You should be able to use antidote on yourself too.

Not necessarily with the mez protection, but some regen, slow protection, etc would make sense.