The Mastermind Wishlist: Completed, Uncut, and En Masse

[WindDemon21]

47 minutes ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Precisely.  Which is also exactly why summoning and equipping them during battle is part of the playstyle.

You can't claim the uniqueness and the core of the playstyle lies in "controlling and keeping them alive" and claim that "summoning and equipping during battle" isn't part of the playstyle...  The two positions are mutually incompatible because the latter is implied by the former.  Deciding whether (and when) to re-summon, or to concentrate on the surviving pets, or to use your secondaries, or to run like heck and try again later...  (Or to turn down the difficulty level)  These are the key tactical decisions every MM must make.  It's a very different playstyle, and not one that's for everyone.
 

No offense, but that's a weak argument.  Nowhere is it written that all parts of the game will be fun for all people all the time.  From my point of view, if you don't like playing MM's because they're hard to play...  That's not on the AT.  That's a personal choice. 

If you don't find playing MM's to be fun, then just don't play them.

Except I do find them fun, incredibly fun, except for this ONE key point that is completely unnecessary.

 

Honestly as annoying as it is, a big part of why is the slow animation and ability to find and target them after you summon them. If they made them targettable sooner, and more importantly made them pbaoe clicks with a smaller end cost it wouldnt be so bad.

[Doc_Scorpion]

57 minutes ago, WindDemon21 said:

Except I do find them fun, incredibly fun, except for this ONE key point that is completely unnecessary.

It's not completely unnecessary - it's a game balance issue, no different than recharge, animation time, and endurance costs on big attacks for a scrapper or blaster.  (And pets, esp Lieutenants and especially Bosses, are unquestionably Big Attacks.  And unlike blasters or scrapper - they're persistent big attacks.  That's a key difference that it's important to understand the impact of.)   Being able to instantly summon fully upgraded pets significantly alters the MM's tactical balance.  It cheapens and lessens the need for heals, buffs, and debuffs.  Why bother when another pet is just a click away?

I could see some kind of "Build Up" type power enabling insta summon and upgrade for a short period, but it would definitely need to be set up so that it was an "Oh Fudge" type power.

[kheldy1004]

Auto-upgrade is essential for balance issue, not just for fun or convenience. Not every MM's secondary can keep pets alive with ease. There are secondaries like TA, poison and rad, which struggle for constant resummoning and upgrading pets. Ninjas are also infamous for endless resummon and that's why they are unpopular at high level contents. It is not a problem to resummon for sets hardly losing pets like thugs, demons and robots combined with time or dark, but they are not only MMs we should consider. Most of MMs I have seen so far in Baf are one of those, though there were much diversity before lvl 50.

I think auto-upgrade will make more power combinations viable because equip is the real pain not summon itself during combat.

Edited March 31, 2020 by kheldy1004

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, kheldy1004 said:

Not every MM's secondary can keep pets alive with ease

We're hoping that some of the changes proposed here (like adding auras to equip that will be enhanceable) will help mitigate that particular issue. Pets die they will die, always have and even if all of our suggestions went through should die, and I don't think it was ever meant to be expected that anyone would be "keeping them alive with ease". Part of the MM experience is definitely meant to be the sacrifices you make (like involvement with heals and the subsequent endurance strain that will put, or like high offensive involvement with traps) to keep both your pets, and team, alive.

 

The issue, however, that I think we should all be trying to fix is that regardless of what you are rolling, currently the henchmen have apex survivability and contendability issues, that stem from their level difference and general weakness, and gradually lessens as you level and become stronger. Only currently, it doesn't lessen well enough, and this is what auras are able to offset. This why they should just be added to all pets equips inherently. It won't trouble the pets thematic resistances like a straight buff to them would, and would still allow a masterminds non-MM pets to benefit uniquely from being controlled by the premier pet archetype (which is a neat benefit I think a lot of us forget). 

 

Not every secondary is going to be as compatible with MMs or able to do the same things. Otherwise every secondary would be the same. Trick arrow won't be as protecting as thermal. Side note; trick arrow is also just terrible and really should be considered an outlier until it's fixed anyway. Poison won't be as protective as cold. We need to get this "let's just make everything straight up easier without considering balance and shortcoming" penchant out of our heads, because these are suggestions that will never make the cut. That is because at the end of the day, we are primarily persuading the devs, and not just the players.

 

You have the power of choice and vast options of power customization. There may be a set that will increase damage vastly but result in your pets dying more often. Resummoning will be a risk-reward sacrifice of that option. And if that's the case, one of your penalties will be re-equipping pets. I'm all for making pet death less of such a supreme, universal frequency, but if this auto equip suggestion is just to eliminate one of the inherent trade offs of your AT and power selection that's a serious blow to its plausibility. 

 

However it's true that sets like ninja (and less pertinent to this thread trick arrow but ill be making a MM secondary thread later) are lacking, and it's a great idea to propose improvements to their specific attributes and not cluster said shortcomings with the archetypes shortcomings. These two things are very separate, and need to be considered separate if we want a chance of any changes at all.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Monos King
Auto correct

[Doc_Scorpion]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

We're hoping that some of the changes proposed here (like adding auras to equip that will be enhanceable) will help mitigate that particular issue. Pets die they will die, always have and even if all of our suggestions went through should die, and I don't think it was ever meant to be expected that anyone would be "keeping them alive with ease". Part of the MM experience is definitely meant to be the sacrifices you make (like involvement with heals and the subsequent endurance strain that will put, or like high offensive involvement with traps) to keep both your pets, and team, alive.

Quoted for truth.  Risk v. Reward.
 

2 hours ago, Monos King said:

currently the henchmen have apex survivability

Apex - "the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point."  (ITYM nadir - "the lowest point in the fortunes of a person or organization")

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Doc_Scorpion said:

Apex - "the top or highest part of something, especially one forming a point."  (ITYM nadir - "the lowest point in the fortunes of a person or organization")

 

3 hours ago, Monos King said:

apex survivability and contendability issues

Yes. Apex issues. Like the highest magnitude of issues. Perhaps I should have made that clearer hahahaha

Edited March 31, 2020 by Monos King

[@T3h Ish]

Quote

• Increase all pets to share casters experience level, from level 1 onwards. Swarm pets (Posse, Living Hellfire, Nanites?) will maintain the -1 level differential.
• Add the aura buffs from ATOs to Supremacy, rising in effectiveness from level 15-50 until it is at the same strength as they are now (credit to Everfreefire, et al. for this one)
• Remove aura buffs from Expedient Reinforcement & Sovereign Right; proliferate to the t4 and t9 pet upgrades with a new enhancement set category "Upgrade Integral Pets" or "Equippable Pets" which will include a proc for pet debuff res. Arachnos' Order: Defense/10% Recovery Resistance or concept of that nature. Equippable Aura Def and Res buffs would be  enhanceable, but lowered by 0.5% and 4% respectively.

The only suggestion I would make, in particular to Everfreefire's comment?
Is just changing the Aura IOs to something else entirely, such as pet debuff resist, chance for damage, pet chance for debuff, such as -DMG or -Recharge.

The existing Aura IOs would just be rolled into pet upgrades. 10% Res / 5% All Def, but I think that was the intent of Everfreefire?

Pets just need to be equal level to the MM to remain relevance in late game or have something else tagged onto them in iTrial content other than the level shifts they share with the MM, as they still can have trouble hitting things / low damage to begin with.

 

Quote

Mercenaries

• Convert Serum into an augmented Adrenalin Boost + Fortitude
  • Remove End Crash, Add high -def and moderate -res
  • 800% regeneration, recovery
  • 25% dmg, to hit
  • 25% def
  • Remaining Adrenalin Boost/ Fortitude stats
  • Stealths Spec Ops
  • Last 1 minute, recharges in 7
• Spec Ops adds random moderate stackable debuff when stealthed (debuff crits)
  • Stealthed SCAR Snipe has chance to secondary effect debuff
• Medic loses Frag Grenade, Granted Triage
• Commando loses buckshot Granted Willie Pete Round
• Commando LRM Rifle recharge reduced to 1 minute 30 sec, damage buffed, AI uses in combat often
• LRM Rifle tagged as "snipe" for enhancement category

These suggestions are quite good.
However, I would make Serum a passive bonus, with an active effect, akin to Fortify Pack, affecting all the pets, with a lockout period of 60s, so you can't abuse Burnout.
100% regen base, with it going up to 200% regeneration when the active effect is used.
+5% ToHit, +10% ToHit when active.
+5% All Res, +10% Res when active.
+10% Max HP (strictly passive, no effect from the active component)
+Mez Prot while Active.
It currently slots Resistance IOs, Endurance IOs and ToHit IOs and SOs. Should remain as such.
7m CD, 1m active effect.

Medic loses Frag Grenade for Smoke Grenade.
Soldiers gain the Frag Grenades instead to help with AoE.

Soldiers alternatively have a Medic, Soldier, and a Heavy.
The Gunner would use the Resistance Heavy's gun, granted the energy bolts could be recolored to be grey / LRM rockets in appearance for the auto-fire, it's kind of like a auto-cannon instead of a energy weapon, the sounds are by in largely perfect.

Spec Ops gain Venom Grenade from Upgrade at 32 at lower -Res values.
Spec Ops retains the snipe, the sound is iconic.

Alternatively.
Spec Ops changed to have a Marksman (unsure of what powers he'd get outside of Sniper Rifle attacks perhaps something akin to Piercing Shot for -Res, Cyro Round, Incendiary Round, HE Round (TAoE), and and the original Spec Ops.

Commando works fine outside of the long recharge on LRM Rocket, Flamethrower needs a lower-cast time.
And if possible? I'd LOVE for them to properly shoulder weapons like Beam Rifle does--granted that'd be fine as a customization option so people can keep the 80's Hipfire if they want to.

Target Caps should certainly be addressed, they're quite low as I recall. Number values in themselves also just need upping.

Quote

Jounin:   Give them dart burst from Widows.  This fufills the -slow mechanic while still remaining thematic and still giving them AOE damage 

I'd really like them to get Smoke Flash as an inherent, and the power filled with something else entirely, unsure what to replace it with though.

Edited April 8, 2020 by @T3h Ish
Grammar, and some other suggestions and ideas.

[Naraka]

Would suggesting a QoL addition be on topic?  I'd really just like a MM inherent toggle that "stows" the pets and automatically turns off in combat (or not, I can turn it off myself) that keeps all your pets and their current upgrades.  So when you just want to quickly move from 1 location to another, you can stow the pets, use teleport, fly+afterburner, SS+SJ or whatever and once you get to where you need to go, turn the toggle off and all pets are summoned.  It's also a pain in large missions having your pet get caught up in the geometry of the map and lagging far behind.  Or if you just want to stand around in the University or near Ms. Liberty but want to be low profile, just stow them.

 

Some cosmetic flair can be added too:

Necromancy: have a skull for each pet float around you or be on some kind of chain or rope hanging from your shoulder or simply a large gravestone on your back appears.

Ninjas: a huge engraved ninja scroll appears on your back. Bonus if there's an animation of opening the scroll to resummon them.

Robotics: optimally, changing the robots into a big Gundam that you walk around in would be preferred but maybe just having a gauntlet with a holo display ready that materializes the bots when deactivating.

Thugs: no idea.

Demon Summoning: having a similar circle of runes like Rune of Protection. Deactivating the toggle resummons them all at once.

Beast Mastery: a pokeball for each beast appears at your waist.

Mercenaries: optimally, having an upgraded tactical vehicle to ride around in would be preferred, maybe just having a helicopter  shadow circle around you, maybe just helicopter sounds while inside.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Naraka

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, Naraka said:

Would suggesting a QoL addition be on topic?

Hmmmm very interesting ideas. This is a function/performance thread but I do like those concepts. Starting a cosmetic thread to get them noticed could be a way to go.

[Xaytan]

I am absolutely, 100% on team "Make All Pets Share The MM's Level".
 

Pet performance has some serious issues because of this, and it causes MMs to be more seriously effected by higher notoriety. While any halfway decent IO build has no accuracy issues, MM pets will whiff attacks constantly at +4. I doubt simply making this a flat buff would cause them to become unbalanced, though I haven't run the numbers on it. It would mostly just make their performance far more consistent.

[Cix]

On 3/13/2020 at 10:07 AM, Unknown Magi said:

Inspiration management is painful for MMs.  Unlike other sets, when we want to use reds to improve our damage, we have to spend 6 reds (1 for each pet) to get the full effect that anyone else would need to spend 1 red to achieve.  And it all has to be done with click and drag, by hand, as there is no macro-ing available for this.  MM inspiration effectiveness could stand to be reviewed.
 

I would like to talk about this bit for a moment, if ya'll don't mind.  I find this aspect frustrating.

 

I imagine it would make the code cry, but it would be nice if we could, for instance, use one inspiration and have the effect split amongst the mastermind and the pets.  For example, mastermind pops an Enrage and the mastermind and pets each get a 12.5% damage bonus.

 

This way, masterminds still have to spend more inspirations to get the effect a single character would, but at least allows inspirations to be practical for a mastermind in heated combat.

[Monos King]

I'm going to start editing in the most popular suggestions into the front page for easier viewing, so make sure to react to the suggestions you like!

[Naraka]

20 hours ago, Monos King said:

Hmmmm very interesting ideas. This is a function/performance thread but I do like those concepts. Starting a cosmetic thread to get them noticed could be a way to go.

Well it's not particularly a cosmetic suggestion although it has applications for having cosmetic options.

 

As I've been concurrently leveling a Demons/Pain and Ninja/Shock Therapy, there have been times my pets either get knocked into geometry or get caught up in a pathing loop where they just can't find their way back to me.  Don't really mind it slowing me down since I mostly solo but it can hamper performance and outright be a death sentence if you're not realizing some of your pets are missing.  I've usually solved the issue by just dismissing and resummoning/upgrading but that is certainly a performance hit needing to do that.

 

Some take certain pool powers but have issues with pets as well (like with group fly) that would be assisted with a pet stow power or command.  I've also read suggestions about a pet group recall teleport power for MM which seems a bit round-about as a solution although that might be useful while in combat.  I think the only particulars about it I just started thinking of is what constitutes "in combat" for the MM?  I can not use any powers or commands, be away from my pets and having them attack, would that be considered out of combat?  Or would it be all that unbalanced to be able to stow your pets while in combat as well?  You could use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from AoE (you'd get no benefit from bodyguard, of course), maybe even leverage self-affecting powers like Personal Force Field or Phase Shift in tactical ways.

[Monos King]

20 hours ago, Naraka said:

You could use it as a defense mechanism to protect them from AoE (you'd get no benefit from bodyguard, of course), maybe even leverage self-affecting powers like Personal Force Field or Phase Shift in tactical ways.

Oh my phone screen cut out your first paragraph lmao.

The stow idea is certainly interesting. I have a QoL thread actually, right here. 

Stowing as a concept is intriguing, and maybe something that all pets could get in the form of a P2W vendor temporary magic satchel item. I wouldn't call it priority since managing your pets survival with buffs and commands is the main point though. It'd probably end up OP too. But I like.

Edited April 10, 2020 by Monos King

[OmnibusOmnh]

All of these are great suggestions. Especially the pet auras into the Equip and Upgrade abilities. I would like to have some different proc options for Imps and Haunt instead of the aura anyway.

[WindDemon21]

7 hours ago, Monos King said:

I'm going to start editing in the most popular suggestions into the front page for easier viewing, so make sure to react to the suggestions you like!

Don't forget to add making the upgrade powers auto proc auras. I know of at least 7 in game people who agree on that, and multiple discussions on help where people have agreed with not one disagreeing.

[plainguy]

The option to create build with just one pet.  Less pets means stronger pets. 

The option to get more attacks based around your powerset if you take less pets.

Lower endurance for Power set attacks.

 

[Monos King]

I'm definitely a fan of the option to spec into a mega pet ( unlikely it may be ) but huge changes to MM layout itself like that will need it's own thread. Think I've seen one in fact. Can't put that one up on front as it's broad enough to derail the other topics.

 If you get a ton of upvotes you should definitely just start a thread. @plainguy

Edited April 10, 2020 by Monos King

[LaAbeja]

remove vomit from the zombies and grave knights, give another melee attack to compensate

give T1 zombies minor debuff aura on upgrade #2 (resistance, damage?)

[Kinvesu]

I would like to see beasts get some more attacks. As of right now, the T1 pets have like 2 damage attacks, the T2s have I think 3 or 4 and the T3 has 3. That seems to be the reason why their damage rotations suck so bad and they stand around a lot doing nothing. I know the savage themed attacks recharge pretty fast like on savage melee but it doesn't seem to do any good on the pets.

[Shazbotacus]

As a Mercs player, the set has other issues that need to be addressed as well. The set overall lacks survivability. Buffing the Medic a bit may help a bit, but it may not be enough. Spec Ops need stronger debuffs on their targets' offense, such as To Hit, damage, and recharge reduction or outright CC. Cutting down the recharge on Teargas and Flashbang is a must, but so would separating their functions as two mag 2 CC powers that are different CC types completely isn't very helpful. I'd recommend something like this.
 

Cryo Grenade: Replaces Web Grenade for a 15 feet or so area effect power that focuses purely on being a movement and recharge debuff with good effectiveness and uptime.

Stun Grenade: Replaces Flashbang Grenade with a plain Disorient, no other effects, for a base duration of 6 seconds and a quick recharge of 30 seconds. Much, much better up time than Flashbang Grenade, and almost as good as Protector Bots' Photon Grenade.

Shockwave Grenade: Replace Rifle Butt with basically an Air Superiority grenade but with no damage at all, strictly knockdown, on a fairly quick recharge of like 16-20 seconds or around that ball park, "holding" enemies for the 4 seconds it takes them to get up.
Beanbag: Okay, I liked the novelty of "Air Superiority grenade" but frankly a single-target mag 2 Disorient would be a lot more useful stacked with Stun Grenade and would give Disorient enhancements more meaning. Maybe others like "Air Superiority grenade" more tho, I'd still be okay with it,

Tear Gas Grenade: Loses CC to focus solely on being a strong debuff, crippling either damage by -25% or ToHit by -12.5% for 30 seconds and at 45 seconds of recharge. This is to provide a weakening effect on the enemy's offense between hard CC, with greater up time, especially against enemies that might be outside the realm of being reliably stunned anyways such as arch-villains. Doing -To Hit would mean something to enhance, but also possibly additional slot pressure.

Cutting down on attack activation time will also go a long way to helping Soldiers and Spec Ops damage, which is even higher than it should be compared to other powers using the same animation. I'd like to see Burst, Heavy Burst, and Auto Fire changed to Single Shot, Burst, and Heavy Burst. These'll use animations for some much quicker activating powers, and fewer but higher ticks of damage will make it seem like your men are at least shooting slightly stronger BBs. Also, may as well have Heavy Burst also be a stronger single-target attack rather than a cone if the cone is going to be so pathetically narrow. They're firing bullets; bullets should be fairly damaging. Robotics has the same problem across all its henchmen.

Everything else is good.

From a flavor standpoint, though, I really hope Mercs get some weapon variety. I'm legit jealous of Council having grenade launchers, shotguns, flamethrowers, rocket launchers, etc. I don't think it'd be feasible to fit that much weapon variety in, but it'd be nice to try to get more different weapons in if we're aiming for an overhaul like I heard we might.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Shazbotacus

[AgentForest]

On 3/12/2020 at 9:33 PM, Monos King said:

Robots

• Nanites upgrade
  • Replace nanite heal with nanite support pets summoned similarly to Hell on Earth
  • Spawns nanites around selected pet, increasing recovery and max health of selected pet
  • Nanites offer group pet percent heal over time which increases with each nanite spawned (10)
  • Nanites last for 2 minutes
  • Recharge 6 minutes

 

Robots are functionally perfect, and simply had a worthless power that was in dire need of upgrade. The new power can act as an IO holster for the aura procs, and mitigate need for aid other in those that role non-heal supports (though they may still want it as nanites will recharge slow and can be killed).

I think that's a great start (as this power desperately needs help), but I think being attackable is an issue.

Nanites, by definition, are microscopic.  That always annoyed me about the move.  They looked like robot cockroaches the size of a softball.  That's not a nanite.  If you could see nanites to attack them, they'd be in such large numbers that they'd appear as a "grey goo" or a floating smoke-like cloud.

One of the reworks for this power I saw making more sense was the idea of a nanite swarm.  You pick a target, and they encircle it, either providing a strong regen boost, or a heal-over-time to them.  But once that target's health is full, it looks for the lowest health pet nearby and jumps to them, continuing its job like a chain heal-over-time.  If anyone's ever played League of Legends, Malzahar is a mage with a damage-over-time spell that eats at a target's health, and if they die while afflicted with it, it will reset it's duration and jump to the next nearby target.  I always thought of nanites more like a healing version of that (without refreshing its duration, obviously, but jumping to new targets when its job is done on the first target).

For how strong the ability would be, I wouldn't mind a long cooldown.  But it just can't remain as-is.

[TheSpiritFox]

3 vital changes for MM not in the OP that absolutely need to be included. 

 

1) Make the robotic heal power accept pet ATO procs/auras for aura muling to bring bots in line with other top sets. 

 

2) MAKE LT DEMONS LESS CHONKY. THEY ARE TOO FUCKING FAT AND IT AFFECTS THEIR PATHING IN A WAY NO OTHER GODDAMN PETS HAVE TO DEAL WITH. FUCK VISUAL CLIPPING. EITHER MAKE THE MODELS SMALLER OR MAKE THE FUCKING DEMONS LESS FAT IN THE CODE SO THEY DON'T CONSTANTLY GET HUNG UP ON SHIT IN GAME, HAVE TROUBLE FITTING THEIR FAT ASSSES NEAR A GOTO TAG, OR BLOCK GROUPS BECAUSE THEY CAN'T STOP INHALING MOUNTAIN DEW AND CHICKEN TENDERS!

 

3) Make robots do knockdown instead of knockback. Having to slot a sudden acceleration into bots anywhere hampers a set that is already critically low on slot availability due to it's lack of an aura mule. 

 

Thanks!

Edited April 11, 2020 by TheSpiritFox

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, AgentForest said:

Nanites, by definition, are microscopic. 

I think the assumption has been that there was a nanite colony at play (if there were still so few they were nano-scaled and not as visible as bulk materials , the benefits would be correspondingly diminutive). With that in mind, I chose to have them be attackable because that would make them pets. Being pets improves enhancement IO options, and maintains a deal of caution during play as they can die. A bunch of extra potent heals could be over-effective without these considerations, but you are right about nanites being really tiny clusters in this case. 

 

They are going to be frail (low health), so I think that they could be given either a placate or what Necro Ghosts get and given an intangible the first time they are taken to half health, as they disperse. However, while dispersed, they won't offer the heal (colony can't work together in such a state) which is already handled since intangible targets can't interact with others.

 

Edit: Another important thing to keep in mind is, pets are scarcely to be at full health while combat is ensuing. BG mode sends them damage constantly, and AoEs may get them. The nanites might stay stuck on the same robot. I think if we went with an idea similar to yours, the nanites would have to heal by priority; which pet is lowest in health.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Monos King
Elaboration

[Monos King]

1 hour ago, TheSpiritFox said:

Make the robotic heal power accept pet ATO procs/auras for aura muling to bring bots in line with other top sets. 

I'm with you on this one, and the proposed nanite changes will do exactly that.

 

And update for @AgentForest , perhaps they are instead given temporary Untouchable while dispersed, and to account for the thematic lowered effectiveness, offer +regen instead of the heal over time while in said state.