Energy Blast and Knockback

[Anubys]

PROBLEM: Energy Blast is a fun, flashy set that gets an extremely bad rap when playing in groups because of its knockback mechanic. To avoid team mate aggro, the player can slot a KB->KD proc, but this will reduce damage potential, especially in Sentinels, who usually shore up their dmg output by slotting up damage procs. 
 

SOLUTION: Give Energy Blast (across all ATs) a toggle power similar to Dual Pistols or Staff Fighting, with varying secondary effects and buffs. This gives players the freedom to play their flashy energy blast/ character the way they want depending on the circumstances, and reduces teammate aggro.
 

First Toggle: Knockback!
Gives a alight damage buff or adds just a bit of smashing damage as a reward for using regular knockback, similar to fire ammo for DP. 
 

Second Toggle: Knockup!

Swaps knockback for knockup. There would be no added damage buff for this option. Knockup is preferable because like knockback, it is flashier and keeps mobs off their feet longer than knockdown. This would be the “default” behavior for Energy Blast until the toggle power that unlocks these three options is taken. 
 

Third Toggle: Knockdown!

Swaps knockback for knockdown. Because knockdown doesn’t utilize ragdoll effects, mobs are usually back in action pretty quick. But, they have a small chance (around 6-12% chance) to be CONFUSED (or insert other status effect, like dazed or terrorized) because they smacked their noggins. 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Anubys

[0th Power]

Here we go again

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Here we go again

 

[Oubliette_Red]

31 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

 

I like that much better than mine. 😄

 

[Burnt Toast]

Seriously... do people even bother looking for the numerous threads that have already been posted on subjects any more?

 

 

[Grindingsucks]

Okay, judging from the follow-up comments, apparently this is a touchy subject that has been approached before, even if it seems like a logical request to me.   😁

 

With apologies to Anubys for hijacking their topic (if it's a sensitive or divisive issue, I don't want to create an additional topic to exacerbate the problem), let me suggest something even more straightforward than what they suggested (In concept- not necessarily in execution.  I know zilch about coding and such); what about simply disabling knockback in groups- either by default, or via a setting that could be toggled by the Team leader?

[Haijinx]

7 hours ago, 0th Power said:

Here we go again

Knockback thread.  Must be Saturday. 

[0th Power]

31 minutes ago, Haijinx said:

Knockback thread.  Must be Saturday. 

The regen thread is Wednesday, right?

[Haijinx]

26 minutes ago, 0th Power said:

The regen thread is Wednesday, right?

Wednesday is Pool Powers.

[Outrider_01]

4 hours ago, Grindingsucks said:

what about simply disabling knockback in groups- either by default, or via a setting that could be toggled by the Team leader?

Or everyone get over it?  Why should 1 person or group dictate how someone else plays? 

 

It is usually ignorance on how it's used, Simple knowledge improves player performance.  When, how, and where it is used to best effect.

 

it's also ignorance that "AoE is king" as that is just easy mode and brings to question why single attacks exist.  Perhaps decreasing damage of cones and AoE would decrease the perception AoE is better, as less damage would shift the belief AoE is superior vs who should give a fk! if an AoE hit as knockback flings crap everywhere; either attack is now considered less in value.  Yeah, pretty sure that won't fly.

 

Two options that are better then changing the entire game are

- Make IOs more valuable for knockback, there is like 2 procs and no one uses +kb sets anyway.  Add set bonus -kb all together instead of IO enhancements,  -kb reduction distance, add damage/acc to make attacks more effective to the set to and the ENG snipe would not be slotted with +9999 KB distance (who does that except for lol factor?)

-Reduce the effect on cone, that is the #1 cause of annoyance to people.  No one cares about single target KB.

-Get over it

Edited March 22, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Solarverse]

31 minutes ago, Outrider_01 said:

Or everyone get over it?  Why should 1 person or group dictate how someone else plays? 

 

It is usually ignorance on how it's used, Simple knowledge improves player performance.  When, how, and where it is used to best effect.

 

it's also ignorance that "AoE is king" as that is just easy mode and brings to question why single attacks exist.  Perhaps decreasing damage of cones and AoE would decrease the perception AoE is better, as less damage would shift the belief AoE is superior vs who should give a fk! if an AoE hit as knockback flings crap everywhere; either attack is now considered less in value.  Yeah, pretty sure that won't fly.

 

Two options that are better then changing the entire game are

- Make IOs more valuable for knockback, there is like 2 procs and no one uses +kb sets anyway.  Add set bonus -kb all together instead of IO enhancements,  -kb reduction distance, add damage/acc to make attacks more effective to the set to and the ENG snipe would not be slotted with +9999 KB distance (who does that except for lol factor?)

-Reduce the effect on cone, that is the #1 cause of annoyance to people.  No one cares about single target KB.

-Get over it

I actually slotted for KB to KD. You leave my damage alone. I already miss out on adding Damage procs in favor of KB to KD IO's, don't counter a "buff" request for a "nerf" request! I'll sick my dog on you for that good sir!

 

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Solarverse said:

actually slotted for KB to KD. You leave my damage alon

I meant an entire KB set that has damage added, basically a damage set added instead of pure 6 slots of group annoyance as you knockthings across Steel Canyon' next zipcode..  Make 5 sets, what ever. 6 slot can be damage like an attacks with huge knockback at the same time.  In the meantime another set, bonus 3 can -30% and 6th can be -30% for 60% total reductionKB damage attack that reduces ragdoll with a stun proc.  There are sets in the entire IO system that give passive 3-4 status protection on bonus 3 that isn't Steadfast so I didn't see a problem for passive reduction on regular KB reduction. Why not a knockdown/recharch IO, the AT specials have multiple standard recharge/damage a AT beneficial /proc as an example. There are +hit/end and +regen/recovery double bonus heal IO, can be a knockdown/stun proc.  Takes work and imagination but anything is possible if its tried.

 

Trying to remember but I think there are new endurance modification sets on test that will benefit endurance attacks like Electric blast, with damage added.

Edited March 22, 2020 by Outrider_01

[Saiyajinzoningen]

i am a huge proponent for more options. In fact i created a thread very similar to this one awhile back. I also was using the KB-KD ios. It was brought to my attention if i bothered to learn how to use KB to my advantage changing to KD becomes a moot point. So i rolled an Energy Blaster and played it exclusively for 2 months. The experience of using KB during that time increased my knowledge of how KB worked. The knowledge i gained changed my perspective on how KB should work. Once my perspective changed so did my opinion. Using KB appropriately is a skill on its own. It takes time patience and practice. I no longer care if they change KB-KD or any variation because i KNOW how to use it. Such changes would have little effect on me. However, there have been multiple cases where my KB will knock a foe into a wall (mostly caves) and it becomes very difficult to kill a foe trapped in a wall. That needs to be fixed. 

[Grindingsucks]

Well, I'm too new to the game to really care, one way or the other.  I was just offering a possible suggestion that I thought might be helpful.  It does seem to be an issue that a lot of people are irritated by knockback (I'm not one of them, for what it's worth).

 

Maybe peeps running knockback power sets should just group together and form pure knockback teams (No non-knockback toons allowed!  Ha!  Take that, you anti-knockback goons!).  😁

[MunkiLord]

I disagree with the suggestion. Unless someone is willing to make a public list of players that insist teammates use the toggle.

[Noyjitat]

On 3/22/2020 at 12:07 AM, Outrider_01 said:

Or everyone get over it?  Why should 1 person or group dictate how someone else plays? 

 

it's also ignorance that "AoE is king" as that is just easy mode and brings to question why single attacks exist.  Perhaps decreasing damage of cones and AoE would decrease the perception AoE is better, as less damage would shift the belief AoE is superior vs who should give a fk! if an AoE hit as knockback flings crap everywhere; either attack is now considered less in value.  Yeah, pretty sure that won't fly.

 

 

People already try to dictate to how others play in all sorts of things in this game. Just join an msr if you want to see how many people bitch. You have the right to not team with ass holes just as tehy have the right to kick you whatever they don't like you doing.

 

Also no to nerfing aoes. Just fuck all the nerfs already.

 

I would welcome:

A toggle as the op mentioned  on my bots mastermind, my energy blaster or anything else that does knockback

A null the gull option

A global knockback to knockdown io.

[Outrider_01]

2 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

People already try to dictate to how others play in all sorts of things in this game. Just join an msr if you want to see how many people bitch. You have the right to not team with ass holes just as tehy have the right to kick you whatever they don't like you doing

Goes both ways.  You don't like knockback, solo or specifically not waste your time by announcing before hand "those with KB need to apply".  BOOM!!!  Headshot to the problem, face it before it happens; don't bitch later.

 

2 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

Also no to nerfing aoes. Just fuck all the nerfs already.

That was sarcasm, as you point out.  Easy mode is easy mode, not like Fireball is really gonna kill anything but minions with one hit.  Now targeted AoE cones with KB, simply reduce the magnitude and problem solved, they cause more headaches then single target.

 

2 hours ago, Noyjitat said:

I would welcome:

A toggle as the op mentioned  on my bots mastermind, my energy blaster or anything else that does knockback

A null the gull option

A global knockback to knockdown io

-crutch

-crutch

-crutch

Doesn't solve anything, bandaid fix for player percieved problems when KD actually doesn't break the game.  Break as in either OP unbalance or completely useless like Intangible powers.

 

Learn to improve your game play, solo, or suck it up.  As much as it destroys your enjoyment it also destroys their enjoyment, learn to improve as someone said above or just stay away from KB.  Believe me, if I had power I would be abusive if I so much as see dumb ass names or ugly ass costumes, I can deal with powers or stupid actions but looking at passive dumb eyesores drive me up the wall.

 

And it turned into a disaster, done with thread as every is gonna keep bickering or showing their point of view.  You got mine, please don't tell me yours as it won't change.

[SwitchFade]

Sorry, no vote. Too many threads to explain why, please see other threads.

[Joshex]

we need to have someone make a podcast video showing how to play a KB toon in a team. it's simple really, tell the team your toon has kb, they should try to pull mobs to walls and inner corners and you are the firing squad! fish in a barrel, no complaints. oh, wait whats that ranged enemy and healer doing standing way over there away from the battle? circle round and firem into the pack. what that freakshow is running away back to his spawn point! Coward! get back in there!. there are many more useful ways a KB powerset can HELP a team. you just need to know how to maximize the effect of your toon. remember this is city of heroes, your toon and it's powers combined dictate how you play in different situations. learn them, know them, people will love your KB.

 

seriously it's funny when they hit a wall and try to get back up and you slam them against it again. and again.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Joshex

[johua]

no thanks.

[warrior]

On 3/21/2020 at 9:08 AM, Anubys said:

PROBLEM: Energy Blast is a fun, flashy set that gets an extremely bad rap when playing in groups because of its knockback mechanic. To avoid team mate aggro, the player can slot a KB->KD proc, but this will reduce damage potential, especially in Sentinels, who usually shore up their dmg output by slotting up damage procs. 
 

SOLUTION: Give Energy Blast (across all ATs) a toggle power similar to Dual Pistols or Staff Fighting, with varying secondary effects and buffs. This gives players the freedom to play their flashy energy blast/ character the way they want depending on the circumstances, and reduces teammate aggro.
 

First Toggle: Knockback!
Gives a alight damage buff or adds just a bit of smashing damage as a reward for using regular knockback, similar to fire ammo for DP. 
 

Second Toggle: Knockup!

Swaps knockback for knockup. There would be no added damage buff for this option. Knockup is preferable because like knockback, it is flashier and keeps mobs off their feet longer than knockdown. This would be the “default” behavior for Energy Blast until the toggle power that unlocks these three options is taken. 
 

Third Toggle: Knockdown!

Swaps knockback for knockdown. Because knockdown doesn’t utilize ragdoll effects, mobs are usually back in action pretty quick. But, they have a small chance (around 6-12% chance) to be CONFUSED (or insert other status effect, like dazed or terrorized) because they smacked their noggins. 

okay, what about it? you're not being specific enough aren't you?

Edited March 24, 2020 by warrior

[warrior]

 what kind of a person post such a stupid question like this? if they see someone using a knockback like power blast or energy torrent and they hated it  the best way is to slot sudden acceleration set bonus

 

besides, i have a NRG/Inv sentinel and  nrg/martial blaster that need to slot the sudden accerlation and get to 50. 

 

hell, i always slot that set  make it to KD.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2020 by warrior

[Ukase]

Personally - a toggle for the player to choose between secondary effects is pretty clever and creative!

The topic of kb is so ...divisive, that the OP is getting mocked simply for bringing it up, because many of you think you have heard it all before. It's hard for me to realize - but the game is getting new players routinely and many others have NOT seen and heard it all before. 

That said, my opinion is that kb is simply damage mitigation. Some of you simply have no thoughts about the person behind the character that causes kb. You think they're knocking them down the hall to make your life more difficult. They're not. They may lack the recharge to use a single target attack, they may lack the experience to re-position themselves for better use of the attack. A host of reasons. It's no different than the controller or dominator who locks down the mob before they're in a nice tidy bunch for the AoE focused AT to dispatch them quickly. 

Some players are so bothered by the kb, they quit SGs, sever coalitions and go from global friends to global ignore. That's how sensitive this topic is for some of the less mature players! 


My challenge for all is to play a blaster that dished out kb to get a better understanding of what's going on behind the avatar. And those that play a character that dishes out KB, play an AoE focused scrapper (no inherent taunt for them) or Stalker...and see what those players go through when teaming with an inexperienced kb blaster/PB/Warshade. 

[Anubys]

58 minutes ago, Ukase said:

That said, my opinion is that kb is simply damage mitigation. Some of you simply have no thoughts about the person behind the character that causes kb. You think they're knocking them down the hall to make your life more difficult. They're not. They may lack the recharge to use a single target attack, they may lack the experience to re-position themselves for better use of the attack. A host of reasons. It's no different than the controller or dominator who locks down the mob before they're in a nice tidy bunch for the AoE focused AT to dispatch them quickly. 

My challenge for all is to play a blaster that dished out kb to get a better understanding of what's going on behind the avatar. And those that play a character that dishes out KB, play an AoE focused scrapper (no inherent taunt for them) or Stalker...and see what those players go through when teaming with an inexperienced kb blaster/PB/Warshade. 

I've played on both sides of the fence. My main was an energy/ blaster, and my favorite powers on both my fortunata and my /martial scrapper have knockback components as well (Telekinetic Assault and Chi Thrust(?)). On those characters, I can CHOOSE not to use those powers situationally. with an energy blaster or sentinel, they do not really have that choice (beyond losing out on considerable damage by slotting KB->KD). Additionally, there may be situations where I want to knock some mobs on their ass while in a team, and currently I can't really switch modes beyond having two builds and a macro that swaps between them but has a two minute cooldown. An option that cripples my character's primary attribute (damage) is not an option. Fight me.

 

I've also played some melee characters (not nearly as much), but I can't stand having to close the distance to melee range. Having mobs thrown away from me is as infuriating as putting a fleeing NPC on follow.... only to have your character match their speed instead of catching up.

 

I think the patch notes regarding updating how Knockback works is definitely a step in the right direction. Cleaning up the code and how it works is a signal that HC devs realize it is a problem and are likely on their way to implementing was to make it more flexible to the playstyle of the person using it, which is what I'm after!

[Noyjitat]

On 3/23/2020 at 3:25 AM, Outrider_01 said:

Goes both ways.  You don't like knockback, solo or specifically not waste your time by announcing before hand "those with KB need to apply".  BOOM!!!  Headshot to the problem, face it before it happens; don't bitch later.

 

That was sarcasm, as you point out.  Easy mode is easy mode, not like Fireball is really gonna kill anything but minions with one hit.  Now targeted AoE cones with KB, simply reduce the magnitude and problem solved, they cause more headaches then single target.

 

-crutch

-crutch

-crutch

Doesn't solve anything, bandaid fix for player percieved problems when KD actually doesn't break the game.  Break as in either OP unbalance or completely useless like Intangible powers.

 

Learn to improve your game play, solo, or suck it up.  As much as it destroys your enjoyment it also destroys their enjoyment, learn to improve as someone said above or just stay away from KB.  Believe me, if I had power I would be abusive if I so much as see dumb ass names or ugly ass costumes, I can deal with powers or stupid actions but looking at passive dumb eyesores drive me up the wall.

 

And it turned into a disaster, done with thread as every is gonna keep bickering or showing their point of view.  You got mine, please don't tell me yours as it won't change.

Excuse me but where did i say it ruined my enjoyment? Im simply

agreeing with the op that having an OPTIONAL toggle would be a good thing kinda like those of you that hate speed boost can turn the speed off at null the gull. I dont see people getting kicked from teams with speed portion of speedboost disabled.