Gambling

[Yomo Kimyata]

3 minutes ago, arcane said:

Imagine if this one change resulted in @Yomo Kimyata squandering all his/her trillions until inevitably being spit out the bottom of the porn industry.

Yeah….  “until”…..

[Ukase]

On 4/3/2020 at 10:38 AM, Llewellyn Blackwell said:

Uhm guys influence is not money in any way shape or form in the game world. It should not be able to be gambled with like money can be in RL. Just breaks the immersion imo. Now if they wanted to create a new form of actual in game world currency, perhaps attached to day jobs( how people actually earn money) or for villains as part of bank heists that could be used, Id be all for it.  What would this currency be useful for? Id say nothing game impacting, like for costume changes at Icons,

Um...you are very incorrect. Influence/information/infamy IS the in-game currency. 
Want an IO? You buy it with inf. Want a p2w summons pet? You buy it with inf. It is in-game currency. 

And, candidly, it might be an incredibly immersive experience for a rogue or villain to rob a bank and take the proceeds and try to make a good haul even better. Comps for various betting patterns over a certain period of time could result in certain character buffs, or other quality of play improvements, like free mission teleporters, free ally teleports, etc. There's a lot of room for fun with this idea! 

[Ukase]

On 4/3/2020 at 11:24 AM, Obus Form said:

Like real casinos, make it 70/30.  Return 70% of all influence gambled, in medium and large jackpot-type winnings. 

 

Devs, make it so!

Modern day casinos won't make it on a 70/30. Currently, casinos are giving back about 93% of all wagers. Almost nobody would gamble a dollar with odds that poor. Video poker is famous for returning 96.1% on the standard Jacks or Better 6/9 payout schedules. (with perfect play)

[Zepp]

49 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Um...you are very incorrect. Influence/information/infamy IS the in-game currency. 
Want an IO? You buy it with inf. Want a p2w summons pet? You buy it with inf. It is in-game currency. 

And, candidly, it might be an incredibly immersive experience for a rogue or villain to rob a bank and take the proceeds and try to make a good haul even better. Comps for various betting patterns over a certain period of time could result in certain character buffs, or other quality of play improvements, like free mission teleporters, free ally teleports, etc. There's a lot of room for fun with this idea! 

Taking that bank money into the casino is also a good way to launder it... Get two players on the Roulette Wheel, one always bets Red, the other always bets Black. You get 97.3%(ish) of the money back and it is now "gambling wins" so you have clean money!

[Glacier Peak]

On 4/3/2020 at 4:35 AM, SeraphimKensai said:

Let's fix up the Golden Giza, and let players wager their influence and reward merits for the chance to win more playing slots, poker, blackjack, roulette, etc.

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content:

• Anything illegal in the real world:
  • This includes anything related to gambling, child pornography, terrorism, illegal controlled substances, and any real world criminal activity (yes, we know City of Villains exists)

[SeraphimKensai]

20 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content:

• Anything illegal in the real world:
  • This includes anything related to gambling, child pornography, terrorism, illegal controlled substances, and any real world criminal activity (yes, we know City of Villains exists)

Then based off your logic superpacks should be against the content guidelines as you gamble your influence to buy them for the chance of a big pay out of prizes which then can be used or sold by the player.

[Glacier Peak]

20 minutes ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Then based off your logic superpacks should be against the content guidelines as you gamble your influence to buy them for the chance of a big pay out of prizes which then can be used or sold by the player.

It's not my logic, it's the Code of Conduct that all players agree to when they log in to the game. 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

Content Guidelines

The following is considered prohibited content:

• Anything illegal in the real world:
  • This includes anything related to gambling, child pornography, terrorism, illegal controlled substances, and any real world criminal activity (yes, we know City of Villains exists)

Gambling is NOT illegal. Take one look at Las Vegas, Biloxi, and a slew of Indian-owned properties. 

[Glacier Peak]

54 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Gambling is NOT illegal. Take one look at Las Vegas, Biloxi, and a slew of Indian-owned properties. 

Gambling is legally restricted, in some capacity or another in the United States, unless the state authorizes special regulatory entities to enforce or restrict different types of gaming at (usually) the local government or tribal level. Wikipedia says it best... Gambling in the United States. One huge caveat is online gambling - the Federal Wire Act of 1961 outlawed interstate wagering on sports, but it hasn't been modified to address the modern conveniences of the internet or virtual reality.  The 'Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006' also didn't explicitly outlaw online gambling, however, it did outlaw financial transactions involving online gambling service providers.

 

All of this is moot though, as the Code of Conduct is one of the three explicit documents (ToS, CoC, Privacy Policy) which players MUST agree to if they want to log in and play. These are the 'rules of the house' aka the Homecoming servers.

[Ukase]

9 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

Gambling is legally restricted, in some capacity or another in the United States, unless the state authorizes special regulatory entities to enforce or restrict different types of gaming at (usually) the local government or tribal level. Wikipedia says it best... Gambling in the United States. One huge caveat is online gambling - the Federal Wire Act of 1961 outlawed interstate wagering on sports, but it hasn't been modified to address the modern conveniences of the internet or virtual reality.  The 'Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006' also didn't explicitly outlaw online gambling, however, it did outlaw financial transactions involving online gambling service providers.

 

All of this is moot though, as the Code of Conduct is one of the three explicit documents (ToS, CoC, Privacy Policy) which players MUST agree to if they want to log in and play. These are the 'rules of the house' aka the Homecoming servers.

You restate that like it means something.  It doesn't. If they want to, they could certainly make a silly video game within this game of CoH inside Giza. Silly anti-gaming rule aside. It makes absolutely no difference to anyone. It's not like it's real money. If it were - then there would be some ground to stand on. How can you call it gambling when there's no actual currency? 

It would certainly satisfy the criteria of "inf sink". And it would not be illegal at all - because even though our avatars might encounter risk of losing influence - the players in real life are not encountering any risk at all. 

The same terms of service you mention regarding Terrorism, crimes of violence...what do you think all of our characters are doing when we "Go, hunt, kill skulls"? I take this large broad sword and jump down slamming it into the head of a pixilated gang member. That's not violence? That's not a crime? No, because it's in the construct of a silly game. The same rules apply to risking influence. It's not gambling. It's just a time sink. So please, stop spouting rules we are already familiar with because they do not apply in this instance. That is - unless the HC Devs deem them to apply. It's their house, I'm just a visitor. If they say no, then it's no. But the notion that "it's gambling" being why - no, that won't be the reason, because there is no creation of actual risk for the player. 

[Glacier Peak]

2 minutes ago, Ukase said:

You restate that like it means something.  It doesn't. If they want to, they could certainly make a silly video game within this game of CoH inside Giza. Silly anti-gaming rule aside. It makes absolutely no difference to anyone. It's not like it's real money. If it were - then there would be some ground to stand on. How can you call it gambling when there's no actual currency? 

It would certainly satisfy the criteria of "inf sink". And it would not be illegal at all - because even though our avatars might encounter risk of losing influence - the players in real life are not encountering any risk at all. 

The same terms of service you mention regarding Terrorism, crimes of violence...what do you think all of our characters are doing when we "Go, hunt, kill skulls"? I take this large broad sword and jump down slamming it into the head of a pixilated gang member. That's not violence? That's not a crime? No, because it's in the construct of a silly game. The same rules apply to risking influence. It's not gambling. It's just a time sink. So please, stop spouting rules we are already familiar with because they do not apply in this instance. That is - unless the HC Devs deem them to apply. It's their house, I'm just a visitor. If they say no, then it's no. But the notion that "it's gambling" being why - no, that won't be the reason, because there is no creation of actual risk for the player. 

I couldn't care any less what you or anyone's opinion about what they think the Terms of Service, Code of Conduct, or Privacy Policy should or shouldn't say. It says what it says. Unless someone from the volunteer Homecoming staff says it has changed, players will still need to agree to it or they don't play. 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Glacier Peak
our to or mispelling

[skoryy]

2 hours ago, SeraphimKensai said:

Then based off your logic superpacks should be against the content guidelines as you gamble your influence to buy them for the chance of a big pay out of prizes which then can be used or sold by the player.

 

By that token, playing the game is against the content guidelines as long as drops are random. I'm gambling my time for the chance of a big pay out in a purple or PvP drop.

 

That's it, game's illegal.  Was nice knowing everyone!

[PeregrineFalcon]

22 minutes ago, Ukase said:

You restate that like it means something.  It doesn't.

You really think that? You know who else probably thought that? Police Chief Wilie Lovett.

 

Former Savannah police chief Willie Lovett to be released from federal prison     "...was convicted and sentenced to 7.5 years behind bars..."

 

And it isn't just the US Federal Government that has a hate-on for gambling. A little googling will show you a list of people around the world who have received lengthy prison sentences for gambling.

 

Still think it doesn't matter?

[Coyotedancer]

4 minutes ago, skoryy said:

 

By that token, playing the game is against the content guidelines as long as drops are random. I'm gambling my time for the chance of a big pay out in a purple or PvP drop.

 

That's it, game's illegal.  Was nice knowing everyone!

 

If you want to get strict about it, just playing a defunct game on a private server without the legal owners' consent runs us afoul of all kinds of copyright law... So, yeah. By agreeing to the terms of service and playing the game, we're breaking the terms of service.  😆

[Ukase]

33 minutes ago, PeregrineFalcon said:

You really think that? You know who else probably thought that? Police Chief Wilie Lovett.

 

Former Savannah police chief Willie Lovett to be released from federal prison     "...was convicted and sentenced to 7.5 years behind bars..."

 

And it isn't just the US Federal Government that has a hate-on for gambling. A little googling will show you a list of people around the world who have received lengthy prison sentences for gambling.

 

Still think it doesn't matter?

In the context of the CoH digital world, gambling truly doesn't matter - because it's impossible to exist in game, unless they start accepting actual currency. They don't. So what are you really worried about? It's very clear that there's no actual money changing hands. So why are you guys so freaked out about a very decent suggestion? 

I get that ACTUAL gambling in the real world isn't welcome in a lot of areas. But I'm not sure many of you are aware that gambling is quite legal in many areas of the US. I don't assume for a moment that in the real world that gambling hasn't ruined thousands of people's lives, due to addiction to gambling. But in a game like this - there's no currency involved. Nobody can lose their pension, or gamble their mortgage in game. 

So, no, it doesn't matter one bit, because I'm talking about in-game. Not using my actual money from my real world pockets. I'm talking about influence in a world where each player generates more than any of us can spend. It's would be completely harmless. No victims, other than in-game. (depending on how it would be implemented, of course) 

[Ukase]

1 hour ago, Glacier Peak said:

I couldn't care any less what you or anyone's opinion about what they think the Terms of Service, Code of Conduct, or Privacy Policy should or shouldn't say. It says what it says. Unless someone from the volunteer Homecoming staff says it has changed, players will still need to agree to it or they don't play. 

 

Apparently, you do. Or you wouldn't keep sharing it. In the context of In-game, there is no such thing as gambling, so there would be no violation of TOS. 

I can completely understand simply not liking the idea for a number of reasons. Throwing a TOS violation where it doesn't exist is just ...well, silly to me. 
You don't like the idea. That's perfectly okay. But as I understand the rules, it would be perfectly legit. And I would welcome it. 

Edited August 17, 2021 by Ukase

[PeregrineFalcon]

21 minutes ago, Ukase said:

In the context of the CoH digital world, gambling truly doesn't matter...

Really? You know that for a fact do you, Counselor?

 

People have been imprisoned for online gambling. The law isn't what YOU think it is. The law is what other people decide it is. Not only do you not understand state laws, but you clearly don't understand US Federal laws. And then there's the laws of a 190+ other countries to consider.

[Glacier Peak]

51 minutes ago, Ukase said:

Apparently, you do. Or you wouldn't keep sharing it. In the context of In-game, there is no such thing as gambling, so there would be no violation of TOS. 

I can completely understand simply not liking the idea for a number of reasons. Throwing a TOS violation where it doesn't exist is just ...well, silly to me. 
You don't like the idea. That's perfectly okay. But as I understand the rules, it would be perfectly legit. And I would welcome it. 

I do what now? I said in my post that I couldn't care any less about your opinion or anyone else's opinion on the three documents pertaining to playing this game. You're not a member of the Homecoming team. I did not say 'I don't care.' Is that difference confusing to you? 

 

Better yet, how about you take a couple of steps back from the keyboard command center and chill. I've not stated in any of my posts in this thread that I'm for or against the OPs suggestion. I posted the section of the content guidelines pertaining to gambling and responded to your odd ramblings.

 

Let's get back on topic. 

[Mezmera]

7 minutes ago, Glacier Peak said:

I do what now? I said in my post that I couldn't care any less about your opinion or anyone else's opinion on the three documents pertaining to playing this game. You're not a member of the Homecoming team. I did not say 'I don't care.' Is that difference confusing to you? 

 

Better yet, how about you take a couple of steps back from the keyboard command center and chill. I've not stated in any of my posts in this thread that I'm for or against the OPs suggestion. I posted the section of the content guidelines pertaining to gambling and responded to your odd ramblings.

 

Let's get back on topic. 

 

Gambling is not illegal in most places in the US.  It's illegal for minors because we'd rather give kids a chance to form their foundation first before we throw them at the wolves.  If EA can get away with charging kids cold hard cash for lootboxes in FIFA and Madden what moral grandstanding is there to be had with all imaginary values? 

 

Mind you I'm all for these gaming companies having their predatory practices reigned in.  If there's not one cent exchanging hands on this game how does your reference to Gambling apply in this instance as @Ukase is trying to make sense of your logic?

[SeraphimKensai]

I'd like to point out a few items before this spirals further out of control because people seem to be putting some kind of emotional response into their position and taking offense to contradictory opinions...

1). I made this post over a year ago, I thought it was dead and someone was practicing their Necromancy skills.

2). Gambling influence/infamy/information is quite a bit different than gambling real world fiat or crypto currencies.

3). Yes we agree to the Code of Conduct on this server. It has been amended and can and likely will be amended again in the future.

4). Keep it civil, and don't feel that a different opinion is an attack on you, like any debate it's a counter point for consideration.

 

As always thanks.

Edited August 18, 2021 by SeraphimKensai

[Zhym]

20 hours ago, Glacier Peak said:

Gambling is legally restricted, in some capacity or another in the United States, unless the state authorizes special regulatory entities to enforce or restrict different types of gaming at (usually) the local government or tribal level. Wikipedia says it best... Gambling in the United States. One huge caveat is online gambling - the Federal Wire Act of 1961 outlawed interstate wagering on sports, but it hasn't been modified to address the modern conveniences of the internet or virtual reality.  The 'Unlawful Internet Gambling Enforcement Act of 2006' also didn't explicitly outlaw online gambling, however, it did outlaw financial transactions involving online gambling service providers.

 

All of this is moot though, as the Code of Conduct is one of the three explicit documents (ToS, CoC, Privacy Policy) which players MUST agree to if they want to log in and play. These are the 'rules of the house' aka the Homecoming servers.

It's probably accurate to say that gambling in the U.S. is at the very least highly regulated—to the point where the easiest policy for a game like Homecoming (which is still of shaky legitimacy in terms of IP rights, remember) is just to say "no gambling."  Saves a lot of lawyers' fees that way.

 

And personally, I'm not really a fan of making gambling a thing in-game.  First, I'm not crazy about the image of "heroes" whiling away their time at the craps table while crime is going on outside.  And I also remember what happened in Puzzle Pirates years ago when they added poker tables—suddenly a large number of players just sat around playing poker instead of playing the rest of the game.  It did a lot of damage to the ability to team up in a game where soloing was rarely an option.  Then again, unless the payoff is better than AE farming, that may be a baseless fear.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Zhym

[Doc_Scorpion]

23 minutes ago, Zhym said:

And personally, I'm not really a fan of making gambling a thing in-game.  First, I'm not crazy about the image of "heroes" whiling away their time at the craps table while crime is going on outside.  And I also remember what happened in Puzzle Pirates years ago when they added poker tables—suddenly a large number of players just sat around playing poker instead of playing the rest of the game.  It did a lot of damage to the ability to team up in a game where soloing was rarely an option. 

I was about to post the very same example...  Adding poker tables literally killed my crew (supergroup).  We went from often having 20+ crewmembers out sailing the seas (often on ships with nothing but our crew and maybe some flaggies) to endless nights where there's be 20+ at the poker tables and 2-3 of us wanting to sail.

[Mezmera]

22 hours ago, Zhym said:

And I also remember what happened in Puzzle Pirates years ago when they added poker tables—suddenly a large number of players just sat around playing poker instead of playing the rest of the game.  It did a lot of damage to the ability to team up in a game where soloing was rarely an option.  Then again, unless the payoff is better than AE farming, that may be a baseless fear.

 

That's a more reasonable reason not to want to make use of that beautiful Golden Giza.  But like you said there's already all kinds of other things in game people get lost in which takes away from the available player pool.  If they can make that casino interact-ably social then why not?  Maybe a Golden Giza itirial perhaps...

Edited August 19, 2021 by Mezmera

[Darmian]

23 minutes ago, Mezmera said:

Maybe a Golden Giza itirial perhaps...

Full expansion of Casino Heist from the SBB?  Rob the Giza? Gets you a badge that you might not want!  Now you're a target!  Have to do the Witness Relocation trial to change the text on that badge!

[GraspingVileTerror]

I feel like this thread got pruned.  Did it get pruned?  Weren't we up to three pages before?

 

Anyway, got some news that might affect things specifically here:

https://www.thegamer.com/pegi-18-rating-games-with-gambling/

 

So, technically, City of Villains might now be considered PEGI 18 in Europe due to St. Martial.  Not likely, but there's a chance.

Of course, if we were to introduce any game mechanics which were "glorifying gambling" then we'd DEFINITELY see the game bumped up to a PEGI 18, and I don't think NC would appreciate that.

 

Shame.  But I understand where the PEGI board is coming from with this decision.  We can all blame actiblizz and steam, and thank ea for this one!