Is there anyway to have Mastermind endurance numbers reviewed please

[EmmySky]

On my MMs I usually take all my primary attacks.  Ok back up a minute, on all my ATs I usually take all my primary AND secondary powers unless its a sleep power or a decieve power as I find those useless to the way I play (I am not big on pool powers).

 

Yes, MM end usage is high.  I prefer to use my primary attack powers as debuffers, like the hawk from beast.  I will slot for end red and then the specialty of whatever it does.  I spend a lot of my MM time using secondary powers and have even dipped into a couple pools for some basic attacks to help my guys out.

 

There is definitely a few strategies for dealing with the end cost of MMs and I do agree its a higher cost.  I think because you aren't expending end with every attack your pet does and yet most of your damage comes from said pets, well I think that was the original rationalization of the higher end costs.  I think that if they decide to look into fixing it they should definitely take that into account, perhaps keeping high cost or raising it for pet summons and buffing but lowering it on the common attacks.  

 

Anyway, I dont really have a dog in the fight (I taught my puppies better than that!) as I am not a major MM player, but thought I would chime in with my take on it, thats what forums are for, yes?

 

Happy hunting!

[Naraka]

9 hours ago, Monos King said:

Well, you're a fellow mastermind so I don't mind emphasizing. But no, he's completely right. It's just basic logic, the attacks aren't that good and they aren't that good because they aren't the focus. Speaking of, let's look at claws. Claws has a ranged move called Focus. It isn't bad, but just because Claws offers it doesn't mean it's going to be comparable to the abilities that are the focus of the powerset.

 

The game has a lot of abilities, that doesn't mean they will all be good. Flurry isn't. Arcane bolt isn't. Whirlwind isn't. Almost no one gets power push. Many moves are available for thematic reasons, or just so you can involve yourself when other things are happening. Mastermind attack powers fall into that category. They are thematic additions that serve to give you some participation while the pets murder everything, but playing with those are your main moves is no different that focusing on Hurl as a brute or Focus as a Claws scrapper. I don't imagine you'll go around trying to Kick and Cross Punch mobs as a Defender if you don't have a death wish either. What you prefer to do is not compatible with the archetype you chose to play. If you do so with that knowledge it's fine, but you can't expect changes to be made soley to make your extremely inhibiting style slightly better. 

These aren't very good examples to argue from.

 

The way I see it, this is an example of run-away-meta builds driving changes.  Some of that is a good thing but it can be pushed to an extreme where meta build changes are at the expense of homogenization, destruction of team roles and authenticity of AT or powerset/pool concept.  A simple perception check: the better you make a power, set or AT, the worse others may look by comparison.  There is nothing inherently wrong or bad about Focus or Hurl as a concept or tool within their respective sets and you can certainly create a rotation of ranged attacks.  It's your meta builds that will classify doing such as inferior and should be shunned even if it's for variety's sake or just as a tool.

 

Something repeated in the thread is the tier 1 pets being useless at high levels as well, resummoning being an issue as well as the attacks costing too much.  I wonder if you could roll those issues together to somehow solve each other.  Maybe set up a mechanic where having the tier 1 pets around somehow improves the attacks and your attacks directly aiding the tier 1 pets to stay alive longer somehow.

[Monos King]

8 hours ago, Sakura Tenshi said:

I always thought live devs imagined MMs would be attacking alongside their pets. I mean it's part of why the last two MM sets added actually directly synergized with the set itself (Beast and to a lesser extent demons), heck you could argue Robotics actually synergizes well with it's set as you add to the knockback your battledrones and protector bots and the photon grenade stacking with the latter pets' own so the three of you could collectively stun bosses.

 

The whole "MMs not taking any attacks" was an unintended style of play developed as players realized the DPS contributions an MM could make were insufficient to focusing more on supporting their pets.

Yeah but he wants to play the class effectively neglecting t1 pets and focusing on the attack powers. Regardless, that was just a little bit of advice to you @plainguy because you won't be effective going the route you're going for even if the endurance changes you want are released to the dot. I'm not against changes like this at all. Your reasoning is just not going to get you anywhere. 

[Monos King]

2 hours ago, Naraka said:

It's your meta builds that will classify doing such as inferior and should be shunned even if it's for variety's sake or just as a tool.

Uh right. We completely agree. He just wants these changes to happen so he can play a pet based AT with less pets and more attacking. It's the equivalent of wanting to play a scrapper with just Focus, and then asking for Focus to get buffed is what I'm saying. You could make a ranged scrapper, it just won't be good. I'm not opposed to this change, he just needs to know that even if these changes do come across, he will still be terribly ineffective. If he's doing it thematically, then the high end wouldn't be much of an issue, but that's clearly not the case. He's talking performance.

 

As you know I'm pushing for a pool of changes and improvements to t1 survivability, but even with how squishy they are now, attempting to seriously play without them is terrible. If the logic is "they are weak so let's make MMs attacks more effective in some way so I can play without them" I'd just refer them to making the pets not weak rather than promote a play style that's for another AT, and intrinsically less effective for MMs.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Monos King
Elaboration

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Uh right. We completely agree. He just wants these changes to happen so he can play a pet based AT with less pets and more attacking. It's the equivalent of wanting to play a scrapper with just Focus, and then asking for Focus to get buffed is what I'm saying. You could make a ranged scrapper, it just won't be good. I'm not opposed to this change, he just needs to know that even if these changes do come across, he will still be terribly ineffective. If he's doing it thematically, then the high end wouldn't be much of an issue, but that's clearly not the case. He's talking performance.

 

As you know I'm pushing for a pool of changes and improvements to t1 survivability, but even with how squishy they are now, attempting to seriously play without them is terrible. If the logic is "they are weak so let's make MMs attacks more effective in some way so I can play without them" I'd just refer them to making the pets not weak rather than promote a play style that's for another AT, and intrinsically less effective for MMs.

 

I am too long winded.

 

Remember this statement as you read these points.

Tier 1 pets after a certain level are only useful for bodyguard mode because the enemies we might be fighting are just TOO HIGH in level for them to do any real DPS.

Thus we only relying on our Tier 2 and Tier 3 pets to help us do our main DPS.  Mind you again these pets are lower levels as well.

End result at a certain level we are only using the Tier one pets for bodyguard mode benefit they offer. 

 

1. My issue is not for Petless mastermind builds its for Regular mastermind builds. * I will express later the benefit for Semi Petless masterminds.

2. The endurance issue is for ALL POWERS a Mastermind uses. Primary and Secondary..  

3. Not only are we Paying more endurance and doing less DPS with these powers some of them have also been changed that we don't even get the debuffs the attack does. So basically we are paying to get a plain Hamburger  when someone else is paying LESS and getting a super deluxe burger with all the trimmings.  

 

Here is where I concede there is a benefit to Semi Petless masterminds..

Having REGULAR endurance cost, like EVERY OTHER Arch Type. Would allow a player to level as a Petless or Semi Petless mastermind. From level 1 to 50.

So why not make them useful ?

I have personally out of a simple Proof of concept shown that a Petless or Semi Petless mastermind is survivable at level 50.  

As was mentioned by other posters which you even agreed. The powers are useless after level 20.  I can semi agree.  Because your paying more for a less stripped down version of the same power.

 

Again no other Arch Type has to deal with the concept that their level lower level powers become obsolete

VEATs at level 24 get a whole set of new powers and can mix and match between the two.

 

So if the thought process is respec after level 20 out of useless powers. Then the powers are lacking because they should be useful all the way to 50.  

The Devs should review the formula behind the powers and fix them.

 

My thoughts are  A Mastermind for Pistol attack should not be paying 6.5 compared to a blasters 4.16.  But instead 2.16 maybe for the base damage attack. 

Blasters get a defense DEBUFF and a Damage BUFF. I would give those benefits a value of 1 endurance each. 

Again the Devs could come on and say no sorry but the actual benefit for those buff and debuff are only worth .50 endurance.. Doesn't matter..

Because 3.16 for base damage is much better than 6.5..

 

Again as you read..

Keep remembering at one point mid level in this game the Tier 1 pets become useless. We are always saddled with that if we want to play Masterminds the "RIGHT  WAY" as was mentioned..

 

Look at the whole picture and not just the attacks are useless so respec as per popular vote by players.

 

[Naraka]

4 hours ago, Monos King said:

Uh right. We completely agree. He just wants these changes to happen so he can play a pet based AT with less pets and more attacking. It's the equivalent of wanting to play a scrapper with just Focus, and then asking for Focus to get buffed is what I'm saying. You could make a ranged scrapper, it just won't be good.

And like I said, what defines "good"?  A stalker can be made ranged too and be decent.  Whether that's "good" enough will purely be subjective but where it's "meta" isn't in question here (newsflash: it won't).

 

Like I mentioned, the example you made isn't very good on account that you can make a ranged Scrapper and it will function as to be expected...but on top of that, you don't have to isolate yourself to being a ranged scrapper, you can just be a scrapper who has a rotation of ranged attacks too and be even better.  To round it back to MMs, the meta is dictating to skip all MM personal attacks.  You say they are for flavor or so that you can participate but them not being meaningful but I'd argue that is a conclusion steeped in meta-game building and not in the concept of what the AT was or meant to be.

4 hours ago, Monos King said:

As you know I'm pushing for a pool of changes and improvements to t1 survivability, but even with how squishy they are now, attempting to seriously play without them is terrible. If the logic is "they are weak so let's make MMs attacks more effective in some way so I can play without them" I'd just refer them to making the pets not weak rather than promote a play style that's for another AT, and intrinsically less effective for MMs.

Okay, guy. I've read your frikken threads.  You don't have to keep bringing up your ideas in spite of other people's ideas lol

 

Or do you want to have the title of Ambassador of Mastermind Suggestions or something?  We get it lol but that is neither here nor there.  I'll give you some of your own advice and maybe look up those threads of yours and post your ideas there.  To bring them up in a topic that isn't about them is rather off topic.  It's technically not off topic but it does railroad discussion away from the OP and toward your suggestion which is a pretty dick move.

 

A suggestion to improve the AT through the personal attacks could have meaningful discussion if you actually kept to that topic (I even tried giving this idea and the idea of improving tier 1 pets a bridge but it was ignored).  As a person that enjoys taking all or most of an ATs primary,  I think the suggestion has room for discussion.  If you disagree, you can discuss why but I really don't need to hear you repeat and shill your threads again and again lol

[Galaxy Brain]

2 thoughts 

 

1) Focus is an amazing power 😠

 

2) Why not play with the modes more beyond Defensive. Defensive gives you BG mode within Supremacy range with any order except attack my target, which is super strong. How about if you swap to aggressive mode, the MM instead gets a damage bonus and an endurance discount, but loses BG privileges as they do now?

[Monos King]

@Naraka Okaaaaayyy...when the same conversation or related concepts have happened elsewhere, it's not uncommon to cite the thread. There's a huge compilation of ideas related to MMs, and so on MM threads, I cite related information from it. It just so happens to be mine. I'm really lost as to where you came from with a lot of what you just said.  And for what it's worth, I just want all of the suggestions to be in one place so we can all get what we want. You know we're trying to get threads stickied right now anyway, right? It's way more convenient.

 

You might want to just message me lol I wouldn't mind sorting out a lot of the misconceptions you have here. I'm pretty sure I said I don't disagree with this suggestion many times in this thread. And I am commenting on this very thread to give it more attention. Just like I am adding it to my list to give it more attention. If we weren't having discussions like this, another idea would have disappeared or been taken less seriously. Even if I disagree with his reasons, I'm still just trying to get the idea noticed more.

 

And come on. I brought up survivability for the same reason you did. 

8 hours ago, Naraka said:

Something repeated in the thread is the tier 1 pets being useless at high levels as well, resummoning being an issue as well as the attacks costing too much.  I wonder if you could roll those issues together to somehow solve each other.  Maybe set up a mechanic where having the tier 1 pets around somehow improves the attacks and your attacks directly aiding the tier 1 pets to stay alive longer somehow.

Was I too vague? I was saying that survivability improvements would offset the need of endurance improvements like the ones suggested here. Because those very endurance improvements were being proposed in light of quick pet death that was convincing the OP to go an attack route and resummoning endurance struggles like what you observed. So I brought up things that have been said in the past to give reference to my statements now.  I'm just saying, if I had to choose a change to be made to solve the same matter, I'd like it to be one of the survivability improvements that people have suggested, and not something related only to personal attacking.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Monos King

[Naraka]

9 minutes ago, Monos King said:

@Naraka Okaaaaayyy...when the same conversation or related concepts have happened elsewhere, it's not uncommon to cite the thread. There's a huge compilation of ideas related to MMs, and so on MM threads, I cite related information from it. It just so happens to be mine. I'm really lost as to where you came from with a lot of what you just said.  And for what it's worth, I just want all of the suggestions to be in one place so we can all get what we want. You know we're trying to get threads stickied right now anyway, right? It's way more convenient.

It's a culmination of your various responses I've gotten or come across in my research of MM suggestions since, for the most part, I have avoided MMs in the past.

 

Quite a few advise to post in other threads or reference your own thread.  The thing is, I know those threads exist so I don't really need to be reminded and my response was to perhaps discuss a suggestion within its scope rather than railroad it into a different train of thoughts.  You replied moreso with "there's a list of other suggestions that we want and..." which is kinda triggering when I just asked why not discuss the OP topic (the attacks) instead?

 

As for keeping suggestions in a stickied thread, I'm not a proponent.  I'm not an opponent either but that doesn't prelude the option of making separate topics.  For example, I had an idea for a QoL suggestion for MMs (that "pet stow" toggle when out of combat) and didn't really get any feedback at all on it putting it in a compilation thread.  Putting it in a compilation thread for cosmetics likely wouldn't get any traction either.  I'm not salty about that, btw, it's just an example.  If you actually wanted to get some focused feedback on a particular suggestion, aiming to post in a compilation thread might not get the desired discussion primarily because most people don't want to read a thread over 8 pages long full of random discussions about a particular subject.

 

So my feedback on trying to get threads stickied I'm indifferent to. It's just as easy to search for threads too and so long as policies don't prohibit "necroposting", you can revive an old topic so long as it's not been locked for breaking some sort of rule.  So yeah, I don't really care about stickied compilation suggestion threads.

 

24 minutes ago, Monos King said:

And come on. I brought up survivability for the same reason you did. 

Was I too vague? I was saying that survivability improvements would offset the need of endurance improvements like the ones suggested here. Because those very endurance improvements were being proposed in light of quick pet death that was convincing the OP to go an attack route and resummoning endurance struggles like what you observed. So I brought up things that have been said in the past to give reference to my statements now. 

Like I said, that's more pushing for a pass on pet summoning while this is aimed at a pass for the attacks.  I would hope that more than just an adjustment for endurance could be a topic for discussion with regards to the attacks although that is the starting point for this discussion here.  Personally speaking, I find the MM primary powerset to be a weird amalgamation of powers that could have more synergy with each other.  Since a lot of the discussion seemed to target meta-game building goals, it begins to take over the narrative with regards to any possible suggestions.

[Monos King]

Well, maybe I'm missing things. I'm glad the conversation is happening though, keep up the suggestions! 

[M3z]

53 minutes ago, Galaxy Brain said:

2 thoughts 

 

1) Focus is an amazing power 😠

 

2) Why not play with the modes more beyond Defensive. Defensive gives you BG mode within Supremacy range with any order except attack my target, which is super strong. How about if you swap to aggressive mode, the MM instead gets a damage bonus and an endurance discount, but loses BG privileges as they do now?

I been saying this is a good idea.

[Sakura Tenshi]

I think part of the trick with all this is that masterminds can simultaneously highly invested in their powersets to be functional as an AT while simultaneously not.

 

You basically need five powers from the primary set to be considered functional as an MM, these powers are so quintessential that it's not entirely undue to call anyone who skips a pet (nevermind upgrades) to be called masochistic if not outright insane. But simultaneously tier one pets are so laughably weak as you get into things like Incarnate content you might as well not even bother, ad the only reason tier two pets hold value when they die nearly as quickly is their support functions which often make or break the set more than the tier 3. On top of that, MM pets, even with changes can feel obstructive and obnoxious to other players, frustrating to command because that attack you NEED them to use that should be recharged isn't used, and they put a greater strain on the server than any other archetype. It all really does not feel worth it no matter how hard you try, and those five powers are basically required to make the Archetype function per it's intended purpose. In some ways it's as absurd, if not moreso, than the ability to opt out of assassin's strike on a stalker (feasible because most attacks will give stealth-strike bonus, and programming wise each AS would function differently enough that actually including them in the sets is not unreasonable)

 

on the flipside, three to four powers on an MM primary can be so laughable both in the damage output and their costs that you wonder why the live devs even bothered to put them there to begin with. While I would wager heavily the MM was not intended to be the main source of damage per-my earlier post, I also am certain the developers both here and live never intended for the powers to feel completely worthless. But there does feel like an underlying message shouting "this is a trap choice. do not pick it!"

 

So in my opinion, the mastermind Archetype does need fixes. I have my own ideas but there's at least two whole threads of wishlists already and posts made by more informed players than me. If you asked me though, the starting point would include eliminating the level gap, giving all pets an inherent 30% AoE defense (back on live I watched an MM friend feel pretty useless beyond being a buffbot around Nemesis, and having tried to play an MM once through praetoria and fighting destroyers is just a nightmare.) and a 10-20% increase in HP.

[plainguy]

 

15 hours ago, Galaxy Brain said:

2 thoughts 

 

1) Focus is an amazing power 😠

 

2) Why not play with the modes more beyond Defensive. Defensive gives you BG mode within Supremacy range with any order except attack my target, which is super strong. How about if you swap to aggressive mode, the MM instead gets a damage bonus and an endurance discount, but loses BG privileges as they do now?

15 hours ago, M3z said:

I been saying this is a good idea.

I agree as well 

[plainguy]

On 4/11/2020 at 1:44 PM, Apparition said:

 

Yep.  It's like an even worse Corruptor without a primary.

 

On 4/12/2020 at 5:04 PM, Apparition said:

 

The endurance issue for attacks is simply because Masterminds shouldn't be using them after... say... level 20 or so.  I only ever take one attack on a MM to help out with damage at really low levels.  By level 20, I stop using personal attacks unless I am really and truly bored.

 

There are very, very few ways to play CoH wrong.  This is one of them.  By all means, have at it, but that's an awfully big boulder, Sisyphus.

 

On 4/12/2020 at 11:01 PM, Monos King said:

Well, you're a fellow mastermind so I don't mind emphasizing. But no, he's completely right. It's just basic logic, the attacks aren't that good and they aren't that good because they aren't the focus. Speaking of, let's look at claws. Claws has a ranged move called Focus. It isn't bad, but just because Claws offers it doesn't mean it's going to be comparable to the abilities that are the focus of the powerset.

 

The game has a lot of abilities, that doesn't mean they will all be good. Flurry isn't. Arcane bolt isn't. Whirlwind isn't. Almost no one gets power push. Many moves are available for thematic reasons, or just so you can involve yourself when other things are happening. Mastermind attack powers fall into that category. They are thematic additions that serve to give you some participation while the pets murder everything, but playing with those are your main moves is no different that focusing on Hurl as a brute or Focus as a Claws scrapper. I don't imagine you'll go around trying to Kick and Cross Punch mobs as a Defender if you don't have a death wish either. What you prefer to do is not compatible with the archetype you chose to play. If you do so with that knowledge it's fine, but you can't expect changes to be made soley to make your extremely inhibiting style slightly better. 

 

I think once the thought process was I was on personal crusade to create Semi-Petless or Petless masterminds nothing else mattered what I said.

I assure you having a Petless or Semi Petless mastermind is my own thing. I do not join teams with them.  I am solo playing them not to have any sort of issues. I have many other toons I can use to join teams with. 

 

But what I did learn from this experience of lesser pets that it is IMPOSSIBLE to do because of the endurance numbers.

This is a very simple test.. 

• Go to the Test Server
• Get one of my petless or semi petless buids and create it.
• Now create another toon that has the same secondary..  Storm, Trick Arrow,  Traps.  When you can Pick the same primary powers.. EG DP Traps.. DP Kin.  AR Storm. 
• Now with NO IOs at all slotted.. Go fight some decent level mobs..  EG if your 50 go fight some level 47 Gray con mobs.. 
• Now just simply look which toon last longer fighting.. Which Toon can stay in the fight longer.. 

Or just take my word based on my play and some minor math that the endurance numbers that anything will outlast a mastermind.

 

When look at the whole picture of a Mastermind Arch Type I realized it just isn't fare.

We have lower level pets which become useless after a certain point in leveling. They are just so low they really can't hit anything and do minimal damage. So again I will keep reiterating at a certain level and DEFINITELY at 50 where many are IOed out and running 4/8 setting. YOU ARE a SEMI PETLESS Mastermind with only 3 pets.. Because the Tier 1 pets are not hitting that much and doing minimal damage being 6 levels lower.  

 

We pay higher prices in endurance for weaker primary attack powers  

We are paying higher price for all secondary powers 

 

Again I ask WHY ? 

Endurance is the currency for this game. You do X or Y and pay with endurance.. 

It is my LIMITED understanding that all the components of a power determine its cost in endurance. 

IF that is a FACT.. 

Then again why is the Mastermind paying MORE for less ? 

 

A comment that was brought up was that there is discussion of lowering the Endurance for summoning which is great, but I think is useless because the summoning though endurance extensive is not something your doing EVERY FIGHT.  If so then I can also suggest as was mentioned above "You're doing it wrong".  

 

But you sure are "hoping" to attack with your pets a bit on EVERY FIGHT.  On my Robot Traps I am placing Trip mines as I can.  That is my one and only attack along with Soul Storm.  Its not the best attack, it can be interrupted and is sometimes. But when it goes off it does some decent damage.  Before incarnates 2 attempted followed up by 1 successful trip mine meant almost half by endurance bar. Depending at where I was on the endurance bar I would have to sometimes stop at the 2nd failed  or risk de-toggling or eat a blue inspiration. 

 

Maybe if I wasn't paying 20.8 extra to drop down all my traps (excluding Detonator)  I could try to drop down another trip mine without de-toggling.  

I know some might be saying wow your complaining about 20.8 points of endurance ?

If you start looking you can see it is the endurance needed for just about every other Arch Type level 32 power. For some Arch Types they could go two attacks with this endurance.  Meaning one big one (signature attack ) and another.

 

Over the length of a fight this all adds up.  

 

For some they would understand its less XP per hour..

 

[Shadowsleuth]

I wonder if there could a balance between the 2 playstyles (having all the pets out vs the players who summon only certain tiers (or no tiers)?

 

Have the MM direct attacks cost less if you have less pets outs.

 

It would have to work similar method to the Defender's Inherent Vigilance where the Defender gets a variable damage bonus based on team size; in this case the MM would get an variable endurance discount based on the number of pets the MM has out.

 

That would allow both playstyles to be viable options.

[plainguy]

On 4/14/2020 at 12:29 PM, Shadowsleuth said:

I wonder if there could a balance between the 2 playstyles (having all the pets out vs the players who summon only certain tiers (or no tiers)?

 

Have the MM direct attacks cost less if you have less pets outs.

 

It would have to work similar method to the Defender's Inherent Vigilance where the Defender gets a variable damage bonus based on team size; in this case the MM would get an variable endurance discount based on the number of pets the MM has out.

 

That would allow both playstyles to be viable options.

This has been brought up by myself in another suggestion thread.

 

Basically I suggested that the endurance numbers first be reviewed and fixed as needed as this is a overall issue for Masterminds regardless

 

But then based on the BUILD.. You have 3 build options you can  ONLY change at a trainer currently.

Again but based on your current build you would get some sort of buffs..

Example.

Your build shows you do not have Tier one pets.. You pick up another attack.

Maybe rework the AT to have options for another PRIMARY POWER attack OR a pet.. Similar to what VEAT get at level 24 when they respec into different powers and mix and match as wanted. 

So a player with Tier 2 and Tier 3 pets might get some buff from defenses or extra HP absorption. Reason no Tier 1 pets means less pets to distribute bodyguard mode. 

If they fixed the Tier 1 pets to be higher levels instead of 6 levels lower then many mobs at level  54.

Then maybe a player might pick up Tier 1 and Tier 2 and forgo Tier 3 pet for a similar signature based attack that many Arch Types get at level 32.. EG hail of bullets or Nova Blaster.

 

Example at level 32 if you look at many Arch Types that is pretty much the big power for each set.. The big bang power. They come in 2 flavors either 32 endurance and have some endurance drain and a longer recharge or 25 endurance and no endurance penalty and a quicker recharge but clearly do less dps compare to the 32 endurance power..

Example Hail of Bullets vs Nova Blast.

 

OR

 

Less pets means the other pets get buffed with more HP, more defenses, More DPS, More different attacks. 

Using Robots as another example. 

No Tier 3 robot the Tier 2 or Tier one pets fire off cluster bombs similar to the Tier 3 robot but for less dps.  Basically The other Tiers statistically absorb whatever the missing Tier would have brought to the game.

 

Again you can go further and choose better bots OR a cool attack. Maybe you fire off the shoulder mount cluster bombs that the Tier 3 did.. 

 

But in the end nothing like this would be possible if the endurance is not looked at. 

 

Again Dual Wield is a perfect example of this.. They perfected and cleaned up Dual Wield when they created Dual Pistols but never went back to Thugs Mastermind where it originally came from and balanced that out for Thug Masterminds. Because the Dual Wield version of Dual Pistols is much better for any Arch Type other than Masterminds. But Masterminds pay the most to use the weaker version of Dual Wield. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

On 4/13/2020 at 3:29 PM, Galaxy Brain said:

2 thoughts 

 

1) Focus is an amazing power 😠

 

2) Why not play with the modes more beyond Defensive. Defensive gives you BG mode within Supremacy range with any order except attack my target, which is super strong. How about if you swap to aggressive mode, the MM instead gets a damage bonus and an endurance discount, but loses BG privileges as they do now?

 

On 4/13/2020 at 4:23 PM, M3z said:

I been saying this is a good idea.

 

On 4/14/2020 at 7:24 AM, plainguy said:

 

I agree as well 

 

I also agree. 

 

I don't see any issues letting Masterminds get damage enough that they could replace their T1 pets with their primary attack powers if they wanted.  If you want to dump 3 power picks and something like 10+ slots into your three attacks from the primary... that sounds like a fair investment

[plainguy]

When someone pointed out to me the level different between the tier 1 pets and end game mobs. I was like wow, this was in front of me all the time but I just didn't notice it.

 

Looking at the comments on the Discord chat for masterminds I seen some good comments., this one of them.

If things line up well for the mastermind he can do some amazing things but if they don't line up they fall apart.

 

Others commented to what I have said in the past. You are pretty much forcefully guided to follow a specific route with masterminds to be decent and successful otherwise you just suck or just mediocre. 

 

I am not saying I want to be a blaster with a bunch of pets.. But My AR Device can pull out 2 gun drones and 3 spiderlings almost perma. The drones are for sure perma. The spiderlings are but if they die off fast then I have to wait. But the recharge matches the duration.

 

My Veat  Soldier has  Call reinforcements, Summon Blaster and finally summon spiderlings on PERMA.. 

That's 6 pets of the same level and that is not counting Incarnate.  Otherwise I would have 8 pets that I have access to. 

Mind you this Veat is full defense capped and has 5 attacks and a heal as well. 

 

My mastermind does not have 5 personal attacks.

My mastermind couldn't afford endurance wise or build wise 5 attacks. 

UNLESS I made a petless mastermind and PL to 50 and used IOs and some incarnates to shore up the endurance weaknesses and issues.

 

I might be exaggerating a bit, as some secondary sets do have some attacks and such but NOT 5 attacks. 

For the most part everything is built around the pets survivability. 

 

If you look at IO slotting for example. Its either your going for adding all the Pet Unique IO procs for defense and resistance or you are going for defense cap and provoke.  There isn't that much wiggle room.  Yes you could switch out one or two powers but, you are not afforded many choices as another AT does.  Add in powers like Black Hole Trip mine/Detonator for example that not many AT at all pick up. 

 

But again I reiterate so everyone is aware if you weren't before.. 

 

Masterminds pay more endurance for ALL the same powers that other arch types have access to and in some instances a weaker version of the attack power.

 

Most powers overall follow this simple notion.

HIGH DPS = Higher endurance and longer recharge

Moderate DPS = Lesser endurance then HIGH DPS powers and shorter recharge.

 

If you can pull up 2 instance of MIDS it is easy to see. 

Again a Good example of this is Nova Blast VS Hail of Bullets. 

You can further see that powers that equal Nova Blast have the same endurance and recharge but with changes based on the power theme. EG Dark as as -hit debuff. 

And then you can find other level 32 powers that match Hail of Bullets numbers.. 

 

Mastermind powers do not follow this rule. 

Edited April 24, 2020 by plainguy

[plainguy]

Standard Attack Endurance Cost

=0.2*(0.8*Recharge+1.8)*EndConstraint*ATConstraint

 

EndConstraint = 0.65

 

ATConstraint =

0.8 for most ATs primary and secondary power pools,

1.0 for Master Mind primary and secondary, and all other non-primary/secondary pools.

WHY ??

 

 

 

[GopherCuresSelf12]

On 4/24/2020 at 12:53 PM, plainguy said:

My Veat  Soldier has  Call reinforcements, Summon Blaster and finally summon spiderlings on PERMA.. 

That's 6 pets of the same level and that is not counting Incarnate.  Otherwise I would have 8 pets that I have access to. 

Mind you this Veat is full defense capped and has 5 attacks and a heal as well. 

 

Sorry not to be nitpick-Nancy, but I'm pretty sure the VEAT pets also scale down like MM pets. I'm not certain about spiderlings since I've played Bane mostly, but the double disruptor bots are L49 on a L50 Arachnos Soldier.

[Peacemoon]

The problem with MMs is somewhere along the way the original devs got so focused on pets that they forgot about the player character. I think this why MMs are the worst AT for reaching level 50 - the pets become the player character and have all the cool attacks, and the player becomes their buff slave. There will always be an element of that in a ‘pet class’, but really all these endurance taxes on powers etc are really unnecessary and counter productive. MMs should be ENCOURAGED to actively take part and fight alongside their pets, if for nothing else than stimulating gameplay - not an afk character. They should absolutely be able to personally contribute to damage. 
 

Bar a few extreme concepts, I’ve always seen the player character as a potent character and not some helpless civilian.  Yes they get people to do the dirty hard work for them, but they are still involved in the dirty work, they aren’t a mission contact. 

So ideas:

MMs rely on henchmen. When solo, this is a focus on your pets, but when on teams OTHER PLAYERS should/could be considered your henchmen.

Supremacy should effect teammates. They’re your minions. Your mere presence inspires them to be better (numbers could be adjusted).

Equip pets level 6 and 32 should also be able to be used on teammates! This could be as boring (standard +damage buff) or interesting (temporary action bar with a new themed power) as you fancy. 
 

This doesn’t mean your pets aren’t useful on teams - I really support the idea of making all pets same level. But I really think MMs need a focus shift back to the PLAYER and not the PETS. 

Anyway this is what I would do. I think the characters would be far more interesting and the gameplay much more interactive.

[plainguy]

On 4/28/2020 at 10:06 AM, GopherCuresSelf12 said:

 

Sorry not to be nitpick-Nancy, but I'm pretty sure the VEAT pets also scale down like MM pets. I'm not certain about spiderlings since I've played Bane mostly, but the double disruptor bots are L49 on a L50 Arachnos Soldier.

Still better than Tier one pets for masterminds.

 

Much more personal attacks.

Much more team buffs that also affect the pets as well. 

No inherit endurance issues that would penalize you for taking an attack. 

Much better attacks overall. 

 

I get what their concept was..

The pets took place of the attacks. Their thought process was that the constant damage of your pets DPS will equal or exceed the other Arch Types players clicking and waiting for powers to recharge.  Unfortunately that is until the pets die then its a whole different ball game depending on the scenario, build, ETC.. 

Further the DPS value isn't true either. 

 

As was mentioned in the discord chat and I am paraphrasing. It is either everything lines up perfect for the mastermind and they can do amazing things or its disastrous and at best mediocre.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by plainguy
more info

[tidge]

On 4/12/2020 at 5:04 PM, Apparition said:

 

The endurance issue for attacks is simply because Masterminds shouldn't be using them after... say... level 20 or so.  I only ever take one attack on a MM to help out with damage at really low levels.  By level 20, I stop using personal attacks unless I am really and truly bored.

 

There are very, very few ways to play CoH wrong.  This is one of them.  By all means, have at it, but that's an awfully big boulder, Sisyphus.

 

I use 2 of the Rifle attacks (and a Mace) on my Bots/Traps MM to add another source of -Res and Knockdown (plus grabaggro) to keep enemies where my Bots want them (in the fire patch). I didn't take these until after hitting level 50 and using a respec into them. The attacks aren't contributing massive direct damage, but they are damage multipliers for me. I don't think I'm playing "wrong". If was going to be judgemental I'd write that it is more 'wrong' to take an MM attack for use at low levels because the prestige attacks are available and effective at those levels.

 

The attacks also allow for the slotting of IO sets, even if they aren't used. It's not like each of the MM pets has 12 slots to fill.

On 4/28/2020 at 10:06 AM, GopherCuresSelf12 said:

 

Sorry not to be nitpick-Nancy, but I'm pretty sure the VEAT pets also scale down like MM pets. I'm not certain about spiderlings since I've played Bane mostly, but the double disruptor bots are L49 on a L50 Arachnos Soldier.

Crabbermind pets scale just like MM pets: 3 Spiderlings at -2, 2 Disruptors at -1, 1 Patron pet at even level.

 

The poor Damage scaling and the increased Endurance costs feels like a double-tax to me. I'd prefer that the endurance situation be improved, if only to allow for a more varied amount of playstyles ("right" or "wrong").

 

The lower levels of pets is really only an issue in Incarnate Content, or if you insist on a self-challenge (but then want a buff to the pets to help with your challenge I guess?) During Incarnate TFs I do think that the level penalty ("purple patch") for pets should be revisited.

 

[GopherCuresSelf12]

Of course I agree with MM endurance adjustments, just wanted to correct that slight error about Soldier VEAT pets not having the same level scale as MMs

😛

 

Anyway dropping that subject, with the release of Elec Affinity I've dropped my Demon/Thermal for a Necro/Elec and I still find myself watching my endurance closely. 

 

Another thing that kind of irritates me with MMs is the scaling of secondary powers. I get that it's supposed to be weaker because our (de)buffs are kind of multiplicative due to having pets, but it can really hurt especially at higher levels. At high level content, I'm basically a 1/2 Corruptor because either pets die fast, can't keep up with the speed of the team or are just generally weak (ahem... Zombies). I believe most of our secondary powers have a lower scale than a controller/corruptor. The fact that our secondaries are weaker *and* have an energy tax is a bit too much.

[Sable Phoenix]

All you have to do is try to take a Mastermind into Incarnate level content and see how badly they perform to settle pretty much every argument in this thread.

 

That's using supposedly "strong" MM sets like Demons, Bots, and Thugs, as well.  Let's not even talk about Zombies or *cough*Ninjas*cough*.

 

Yes, pets are ridiculously strong at low levels, but that's counterbalanced by the fact that we don't get many pets at low levels.  At high levels, the level penalty to pets, and the other endurance and damage penalties stacked upon the MM specifically, plus the fact you can't share set bonuses between the pets and the MM, mean you're effectively crippled.  Additionally, the fact that if your pets are killed (which they will be, constantly) you have pretty much nothing left to go on as far as a traditional MM approach and have to wait to re-summon them (if you aren't killed first) means you suffer from a lot more downtime than you would if you were another AT facing a simple defeat.

 

I'm speaking as someone who loves Masterminds, whose Main is in fact a Mastermind, who is proud of the AT and doesn't want to admit any weaknesses that it has.  And yet I'm forced by gameplay to admit that my TANKER performs better in high-level and especially Incarnate content, in every single aspect, than my beloved MM main.