Is there anyway to have Mastermind endurance numbers reviewed please

[plainguy]

Disruption arrows in trick arrow -  18 endurance.

Corrosive vial - 20 endurance

Crack whip - 18 endurance 

Toxic Dart - 8 endurance ( I think for some crazy reason my endurance is dropping with every tick of the dot on this power )

Pretty much literally can't use these powers without blowing all your endurance with other things going on. 

Even with IO set bonuses, it's just over the top. 

You are pretty much forced into an Incarnate endurance reducing power. 

 

The issue comes into play much more because Mastermind attack primary powers are much higher in endurance. 

 

Mind you I have several builds with Trick arrow and crack whip as a mastermind.

 

BUT 

This is the first time I have Disruption arrow and the Experimentation Set.. 

And I noticed when I DON'T use Corrosive Vial and Disruption Arrow my endurance is good and is pretty much like other game play experience from other mastermind builds not using those powers.

MIDS has my endurance use at .65 with a recovery of 2.6. Which is pretty much the rule of thumb of 2 points recovery above your endurance use.  Which is what I follow for all builds and it works out on the 20+ level 50 builds I have. 

 

Again not a big number cruncher player.

But something just does not feel right based on the limited toggles I have running ( Two), Weave and Scorpion Shield. 

I have other builds with Scorpion Shield, Weave, Tactics, Tough, Hover and less endurance issues.. 

 

Again zero clue. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 10, 2020 by plainguy

[MTeague]

The mastermind direct attacks are crazy expensive.  For this reason, my Beast / Empath is using Kick, Boxing, Crosspunch to go in Kickboxing right alongside her doggos and kittehs.

Still have Call Hawk for minimal flight denial and to help build stacks of Pack.

 

My Ninja/Cold mastermind skips all the direct-bow attacks and just uses a 4-Proc Infrigidate, and Arcane Bolt for his "I have End to spare and don't need to cast anything else right now" moments.

[Greycat]

*looks at the number*

 

Yes, I can definitively say that THESE.... *slaps paper down on desk* Are numbers.

 

(The one that sticks in my mind... I don't recall if it's just MM or Poison in general, but I'm remembering the heal as "slow and expensive" as well.)

[Vanden]

Masterminds have an endurance penalty built into their powers, because the vast majority of their damage output comes with no endurance cost beyond the initial cost of summoning and upgrading their pets.

[Monos King]

4 hours ago, Vanden said:

Masterminds have an endurance penalty built into their powers, because the vast majority of their damage output comes with no endurance cost beyond the initial cost of summoning and upgrading their pets.

That's completely true. However, it also comes from buffing them, and rebuffing them, and Resummoning them when they die, and reupgrading them when they die. Essentially the issue is that henchmen die way too much.

 

I'm fine with the end penalty, and I think that once some of the other coveted survival changes come through, people will find that this particular constraint is seeded appropriately and manageably. With the murder of other end sapps though, I see the validity of these complaints. Especially since there are those clamouring for Sentinel dps values; in this time of DPS reign, people seem to really want to fight for themselves.

 

That of course defeats the purpose of being an MM though.

[Redlynne]

15 minutes ago, Monos King said:

That's completely true. However, it also comes from buffing them, and rebuffing them, and Resummoning them when they die, and reupgrading them when they die. Essentially the issue is that henchmen die way too much.

/em Soapbox

 

Mastermind: Alright you LOSERS!  You're all dying TOO MUCH!  Stop it!  How many times do I have to tell you to DIE LESS if you want to live??

[Monos King]

22 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

/em Soapbox

 

Mastermind: Alright you LOSERS!  You're all dying TOO MUCH!  Stop it!  How many times do I have to tell you to DIE LESS if you want to live??

"If you don't stop dying, I'll kill you!"

[Monos King]

@plainguy If you check the pin weekly discussion summaries though, you'll see the devs are aware of end concerns. Right now it looks like reducing the cost of summoning (probably to compensate for all those deaths) is the direction it's going, and not attack powers. That seems fine to me; the pets do the work and if you want you can participate, but it'll be some effort. 

 

With that knowledge, what do you think?

Edited April 11, 2020 by Monos King

[plainguy]

14 minutes ago, Monos King said:

@plainguy If you check the pin weekly discussion summaries though, you'll see the devs are aware of end concerns. Right now it looks like reducing the cost of summoning (probably to compensate for all those deaths) is the direction it's going, and not attack powers. That seems fine to me; the pets do the work and if you want you can participate, but it'll be some effort. 

 

With that knowledge, what do you think?

 

TDLDR;

 

• Tier one pets are useless at top level because of the vast range level between the pet and the mobs.. I think its level 47 vs 54 mob.. just not going to cut it.
• All the Mastermind powers are inflated endurance wise when compared to any other Arch Type. So as an example Dual Wield, Blazing Arrow, Steamy Mist to name a few are all higher endurance cost for Masterminds. But again its all powers. 
  • I would like to guess but I am not going to, that someone long ago did some math and said that Masterminds with all their pets and paying the same endurance for an attack or debuff can or will out DPS that certain other arch type or is too powerful.  Again not asking show me the numbers but it would be nice if someone said this is a fact and this is why. 
• My simple defense to this is Tier 1 pets are useless. Tier one pets take up a slot and so do the 2 upgrades which you NEED to take for the OTHER pets.. No other Arch Type has a power that set to 3 levels lower then the current players level. 
  • If someone level 47 could take out a 54 mob with similar attacks as Tier one pets then I would have to shut up. But I know its not possible.
  • End result at lvl 50 Tier ones are very limited in use. 
• I believe reducing the endurance would allow masterminds a option to different play style with lesser pets as they level. Currently because of the endurance issues you cannot level a mastermind with NO pets.. The endurance drain on attacks is just too massive. 
• Which means you are pretty much pigeonholed into playing a mastermind with all pets limited to no attacks and just controlling your pets to fight..  Because the player isn't doing much the pets are. I would like to get into the mix as well sometimes..  Even when defense cap is possible with a mastermind it still hard because the endurance drain from attacks prevents you from really fighting because it will drop your toggles needed for defense. I want to punch this guy but I can't let me stand here and just tell the pets to attack until I can make an endurance inspiration or my endurance goes up a bit..  

 

 

THE Long winded version

You know I am an outlier with this stuff.

I do have Standard Mastermind builds which have zero issues with endurance because all of my builds are created with a Tankermind concept.  I strive for 3/8 setting solo which mean I know can pull more than my weight on a full team. 

 

So with that being said especially with the new changes to Pet AI I don't have that many pet dying and resummoning issues. Plus a barely use inspirations on my full pet masterminds. 

Further with the Tier 1 pet being so out leveled on many missions, my only concern is Tier 2 and Tier 3.  On Robot I need Tier 3 and the 2nd upgrade which gives him the AOE attacks.  

 

I also have been reading ( to my surprise ) that many might have Tier 1 but don't even bother summoning for the exact nature I mentioned above at level 50 or respec or out for an attack power.

 

But now after so many years of playing masterminds and learning much more about game mechanics I am rolling into a different type of play style with masterminds. Less pets and more attacks. 

You cannot level a mastermind with no pets and more attacks as the endurance drain is just too massively high. Even Six slotting endurance and putting endurance redux IOs into all the attacks.  I know because I have tried.  Was just too impossible. 

 

So with that being all said. 

I have suggested for changing on how Masterminds work and how they are built to give more options. I understand its a big endeavor and rework. 

 

So another option is reduce the endurance for attacks. 

 

I am asking because I don't know. 

If you look at all the attacks Masterminds have and compare it other Arch Types you will see that all the attacks for the primary and secondary are inflated endurance wise for Masterminds. 

Why ? Is there some data out there that shows a Mastermind plus pets using the same attacks or debuffs for the same endurance numbers as another Arch Type will do better ?

I get we have pets, but pets take up 3 slots and 2 upgrades.

And yes I get that the 6 pets MIGHT do attacks, buff and debuffs that those 5 slots take up. 

 

But I would have to challenge anyone because as I previously mentioned my Tier one and to some degree my Tier 2 pets are lower level. But I will just put in my Tier one pets. 

Does anyone else's powers NOT increase in level as they level ? 

I would dare to have anyone fight a boss 7 levels higher than them and see how they stand ( lvl 47 vs 54 boss ).. Which is pretty much how the Tier one pets are if I am not mistaken and do that with punch and 2 other attacks. 

 

Again I get a Mastermind is not only about his Tier one pets.. 

But as I also mentioned above many have discovered that at the top end of the game having Tier one pets is almost useless.  Honestly I never thought of it until it would brought up with the same level comparison I did. I honestly never thought of it.  Playing a Tankermind all the time I just needed my Tier 3 Robot to lay down rocket fire honestly.  So the level difference just never dawned on me. 

 

But when it did I messed around testing it out and yea.. My Tier one were useless even with me Provoking.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Apparition]

IMO, I think the better solution would be to fix the levels for the pets to be the equal of the MM, or at most one level below, including Incarnate level shifts.

[Monos King]

13 minutes ago, Apparition said:

IMO, I think the better solution would be to fix the levels for the pets to be the equal of the MM, or at most one level below, including Incarnate level shifts.

Yeah we're all trying to go for equal level henchmen across the board (besides henchmen underlings like Posse). Devs seemed to have noticed that one too, so, progress.

[Monos King]

37 minutes ago, plainguy said:

I am rolling into a different type of play style with masterminds. Less pets and more attacks. 

Uhhh you can do that for funzies if you want but that's just not how you play masterminds. The AT just won't be balanced against an inherently contradictory preference man.

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, Monos King said:

Uhhh you can do that for funzies if you want but that's just not how you play masterminds. The AT just won't be balanced against an inherently contradictory preference man.

 

Yep.  It's like an even worse Corruptor without a primary.

[Monos King]

Just now, Apparition said:

 

Yep.  It's like an even worse Corruptor without a primary.

Pretty much. @plainguy There were some really interesting MM revamp ideas on here, that proposed letting MMs spec into one super strong pet. That's completely removed from ordinary MM balance and its own thing, so if you have stuff to add to that theoretical that include better attack options I'd go hunt out those threads. But you the casters personal attacks will never be the focus of playing an MM, and won't be effective compared to using pets even now when they're squishy. If you want prevalent attacks and a few pets, that's really what controllers are for.

[Redlynne]

1 minute ago, Monos King said:

There were some really interesting MM revamp ideas on here, that proposed letting MMs spec into one super strong pet.

We call that Gravity Control ...

[Monos King]

44 minutes ago, Redlynne said:

We call that Gravity Control ...

I imagine it would be more like each MM set gets a thematic elite boss level pet they sacrafice all their defenses and current pets for. Like beasts calling in a dragon. I'd go look at those threads if you're interested, don't have the links on hand though. My focus is fixing the existing MM set up, and all that.

[Sable Phoenix]

Make all MM pets the same level as their MM.  Including Incarnate level shifts.  That would go a long way to solving the problem.

[plainguy]

Any changes is good.

 

Needs of the many outweigh the few. 

But look  I think the endurance issue for attacks is there regardless of 6 pets or no pets.

You just couldn't use those 3 attacks along with everything else with any consistency. It really would be I can only use any of these attacks once in a while because of the endurance burn. Like you couldn't spam the crack whip it would kill your endurance.

 

On 4/11/2020 at 1:44 PM, Apparition said:

 

Yep.  It's like an even worse Corruptor without a primary.

I will say this.

I have a Whip Trick arrow build and it feels like old school COH..

In which there is an risk of going to the hospital at level 50.  

It's a lot of fun.  Lots of moving around and positioning. 

 

At this point with 20+ builds with IOs it's pretty much autopilot on just about all my builds. 

Right now I am trying to do solo ITF on 8/4 without any deaths. 

Looking to do it natural but the AV on the map with the generals and computers cannot be taken down. I need to try to "cheat" and use envenom daggers.  

I would love to see a team of Petless or one pet only masterminds running some ITF or similar.  

 

 

 

 

[Apparition]

2 minutes ago, plainguy said:

Any changes is good.

 

Needs of the many outweigh the few. 

But look  I think the endurance issue for attacks is there regardless of 6 pets or no pets.

You just couldn't use those 3 attacks along with everything else with any consistency. It really would be I can only use any of these attacks once in a while because of the endurance burn. Like you couldn't spam the crack whip it would kill your endurance.

 

The endurance issue for attacks is simply because Masterminds shouldn't be using them after... say... level 20 or so.  I only ever take one attack on a MM to help out with damage at really low levels.  By level 20, I stop using personal attacks unless I am really and truly bored.

 

There are very, very few ways to play CoH wrong.  This is one of them.  By all means, have at it, but that's an awfully big boulder, Sisyphus.

[plainguy]

2 hours ago, Apparition said:

 

The endurance issue for attacks is simply because Masterminds shouldn't be using them after... say... level 20 or so.  I only ever take one attack on a MM to help out with damage at really low levels.  By level 20, I stop using personal attacks unless I am really and truly bored.

 

There are very, very few ways to play CoH wrong.  This is one of them.  By all means, have at it, but that's an awfully big boulder, Sisyphus.

You know that statement is wrong..  

By the mere fact that they are there means you can take them and they should be of use. 

Show me in the COX rule book that by level 20 I need to respec out of any attack.  

Then I might agree with you..

 

Until then its YOUR OPINION that your trying to impose as some hidden rule. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ABlueThingy]

Really masterminds need a pretty serious overhaul in a lot of respects.  The AT works pretty well, I know, but it's got a lot of bloat and wasted space.

[Monos King]

3 hours ago, plainguy said:

You know that statement is wrong..  

By the mere fact that they are there means you can take them and they should be of use. 

Show me in the COX rule book that by level 20 I need to respec out of any attack.  

Then I might agree with you..

 

Until then its YOUR OPINION that your trying to impose as some hidden rule. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well, you're a fellow mastermind so I don't mind emphasizing. But no, he's completely right. It's just basic logic, the attacks aren't that good and they aren't that good because they aren't the focus. Speaking of, let's look at claws. Claws has a ranged move called Focus. It isn't bad, but just because Claws offers it doesn't mean it's going to be comparable to the abilities that are the focus of the powerset.

 

The game has a lot of abilities, that doesn't mean they will all be good. Flurry isn't. Arcane bolt isn't. Whirlwind isn't. Almost no one gets power push. Many moves are available for thematic reasons, or just so you can involve yourself when other things are happening. Mastermind attack powers fall into that category. They are thematic additions that serve to give you some participation while the pets murder everything, but playing with those are your main moves is no different that focusing on Hurl as a brute or Focus as a Claws scrapper. I don't imagine you'll go around trying to Kick and Cross Punch mobs as a Defender if you don't have a death wish either. What you prefer to do is not compatible with the archetype you chose to play. If you do so with that knowledge it's fine, but you can't expect changes to be made soley to make your extremely inhibiting style slightly better. 

[plainguy]

1 hour ago, Monos King said:

Well, you're a fellow mastermind so I don't mind emphasizing. But no, he's completely right. It's just basic logic, the attacks aren't that good and they aren't that good because they aren't the focus. Speaking of, let's look at claws. Claws has a ranged move called Focus. It isn't bad, but just because Claws offers it doesn't mean it's going to be comparable to the abilities that are the focus of the powerset.

 

The game has a lot of abilities, that doesn't mean they will all be good. Flurry isn't. Arcane bolt isn't. Whirlwind isn't. Almost no one gets power push. Many moves are available for thematic reasons, or just so you can involve yourself when other things are happening. Mastermind attack powers fall into that category. They are thematic additions that serve to give you some participation while the pets murder everything, but playing with those are your main moves is no different that focusing on Hurl as a brute or Focus as a Claws scrapper. I don't imagine you'll go around trying to Kick and Cross Punch mobs as a Defender if you don't have a death wish either. What you prefer to do is not compatible with the archetype you chose to play. If you do so with that knowledge it's fine, but you can't expect changes to be made soley to make your extremely inhibiting style slightly better. 

 

Again you do realize you are still making my point of why are masterminds paying more endurance?

Thugs Dual Wield is bad ? Empty Clips is bad ? Pistols is bad ?

I am pretty darn sure many DP builds on all the forums for all the Arch types that can use this power have at least ONE if not two of these power in their build.  I sure do on my 3 or 4 DP builds. 

 

But you are saying these powers are bad ? 

I spent some time looking around on the forums to see, but I don't see anyone telling a Corruptor, Blaster, Defender, Sentinel to remove any if not all of these 3 attack powers after level 20.  

 

You want to know what makes them bad on a Mastermind ? That your paying more to use the same power that does the same base DPS damage as any other Arch Type. 

Imagine picking up a level 1 or 2 power that eventually becomes useless in game.  What would Sentinels do ? They need at least 1 of those two first powers to activate something. 

But Mastermind get Tier 1 pets which do become useless eventually as the mobs you fight out level the Tier one pets dramatically.

 

But further then why is a mastermind paying more for their secondaries as well compared to other Arch Types ?  

I am certain you can't keep using the same verbiage respec out of it at lvl 20.  I just can't respec out of my whole secondary. 

I thought DPS output was somewhat formulaic around endurance cost per power, among other things like recharge. 

Taking a quick look you can see Final powers are either 27 endurance or 20 endurance. 

With either a 145 second recharge or 125 second recharge respectively. 

Which makes sense.. The BIG DPS powers like NOVA do more damage and take longer to recharge and cost more to use. Where as something like Hail of Bullets does less DPS and cost less and is quicker to recharge.  

 

So Why isn't my lightning Storm on my Mastermind not doing more DPS or recharging faster for the 9 endurance I am paying ?

Why are Dual Pistol players in any other Arch Types doing more DPS and paying less then Mastermind Thug players for the same attack?

I am just picking them for the analogy but its like that across the board for all similar powers. Mercs, Ninja, Beast. 

 

But again I want to remind you that you are agreeing that this holds true for the Primary. That you should swap them out after level 20 or you are playing COH wrong. 

And by the same analogy ALL the SECONDARY POWER sets as well.  

 

Or are we going to make up some other imaginary rule that masterminds have to pay more endurance because mentally they are being taxed too much while trying to control their pets ?

 

I also want to add that lowering the endurance for pet summoning is useless, at least on its own. 

For a player like myself I am barely getting a pet wipe. So it benefits me much less then a player who doesn't know how to play a mastermind and control their pets ( usually someone who has power leveled to 50 ).   See what I did there.. I put my own LRN2PLY spin. 

 

But you both made my point.

Because now you need to explain how Pistols, Dual Wield and Empty Clips for ALL Arch Types must be respec out of at level 20.

Again I spent a good 30 minutes trying to look at threads on DP in which someone is saying NOT to take those 3 powers because they were bad. I have seen people post about Not needing one or another based on rotation. 

 

The response will be well they are better for those arch types so they should be taken because of endurance.. We are just talking about Masterminds.. But again Secondaries will be glazed over with no answer why Masterminds are paying more.

Then you would have to concede that if the endurance was normalized then they would be of value. 

Because you can't say that the SAME EXACT POWER is good for one Arch Type but bad for another. 

 

Which is what the thread is about fixing the endurance cost for masterminds. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

    

[Sakura Tenshi]

I always thought live devs imagined MMs would be attacking alongside their pets. I mean it's part of why the last two MM sets added actually directly synergized with the set itself (Beast and to a lesser extent demons), heck you could argue Robotics actually synergizes well with it's set as you add to the knockback your battledrones and protector bots and the photon grenade stacking with the latter pets' own so the three of you could collectively stun bosses.

 

The whole "MMs not taking any attacks" was an unintended style of play developed as players realized the DPS contributions an MM could make were insufficient to focusing more on supporting their pets.

[Grouchybeast]

Is there anyway to have Mastermind endurance numbers reviewed please

 

To answer the question in the title - maybe?  The best way to go about it would probably be to collect data using the combat log and compare the Damage Per End output of Masterminds AND their pets combined against the DPE other ATs.  Then, if you could demonstrate that overall Masterminds are suffering by comparison, you'd have a good basis for asking for a change, and also some numbers to suggest what that change should be to bring MMs in line with other ATs.