Hasten: Make it Inherent, or get rid of it?

[Abysmalyxia]

No reasonable person thinks Hasten should be kept as is and anyone who argues to do so is merely arguing to keep their current *build* as is, indifferent to the damage it causes to the game itself.

 

Let's examine the reality of Hasten: Every single power in the entire game that utilizes recharge must be balanced around the existence of this single pool power. Read that sentence again.

 

Now tell me you think that is sane. That it qualifies as good game design. Tell me you're going to argue in favor of that status quo.

 

You're going to tell me that a player in "the know" who knows how to make a single power permanent, giving themselves a SEVENTY PERCENT universal reduction in recharge time for every single power they have isn't at a significant advantage over one who does not? There's no other ability in the game that carries that kind of influence, certainly not any pool power.

 

There's no reasonable case to be made for keeping hasten as it is. None.

 

SOLUTION 1:

Reduce recharge times across the board by 70%, essentially granting everyone the perma haste they already want. It won't significantly alter game balance because arguably the majority of players do this already anyway and those who don't will be happy to see the change. In essence those who depend on hasten will see no real loss (and will gain a few slots and a power back) while those who don't have it will be brought more up to par.

 

SOLUTION 2:

Change the Swiftness inherent power to accept recharge reduction enhancements that reduce recharge globally. This would demand greater fine tuning on the part of the developers as well as requiring some kind of investment on the part of the player while not leaving those unaware of the situation so far behind as to create an unbreachable gulf.

 

(Edit: merged another thread into this discussion, I changed the title accordingly.  OP, feel free to alter as you see fit. --GM Tahquitz)

Edited May 9, 2020 by GM Tahquitz
Title change

[justicebeliever]

Reasonable Case #1 for keeping hasten as it is - There are higher priorities with the Development team than tinkering around with something that essential works as is.

 

Reasonable Case #2 for keeping hasten as it is - You'll piss off less of your account holders but not monkeying with something that works as-is, then you do by changing it poorly.

 

I'm not opposed or in favor of either of your solutions, but I have an allergic reaction to hyperbole, so I came up with 2 reasonable cases for keeping as is.

 

Please discuss, this isn't a vote to keep it the same, just pointing out there are pro's to not changing it.

[Greycat]

Large text does not make an opinion more right.

Personally I don't care if people take hasten or not, don't think it needs changing, and have zero builds with perma-anything and few that took hasten, even with hundreds of characters on live.

And honestly, so what if one player is at "an advantage" over another? The only place that makes a difference is PVP, PVPers know about it and work around it. I'm not in competition with anyone else.

Hasten is fine. Nerf font size.

[Corruption]

How about no? 

[modest]

No reasonable person thinks that Hasten should be nerfed, and anyone who argues for Hasten nerfs is trying to diminish the play style that other players prefer, indifferent to the damage such a nerf would cause to other players' fun.

 

No reasonable person thinks that a volunteer development team should spend the time to rebalance the recharge times of every power in the game.
 

Spoiler

 

Repeated in absurdly large font to match the absurdly large font used by the OP:

 

No reasonable person thinks that Hasten should be nerfed, and anyone who argues for Hasten nerfs is trying to diminish the play style that other players prefer, indifferent to the damage such a nerf would cause to other players' fun.

 

 

[justicebeliever]

Just now, Greycat said:

Large text does not make an opinion more right.

 

Well your response was larger than the original posters, so I guess I'd have to side with you on this....But he did have more words...

 

Hmmmm

[@T3h Ish]

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

[ArchVileTerror]

Anyone have the link to Steampunkette's thread on this?  I need to leave for spouse's driving lesson, but I think her thread had a lot of significant discussion on this already.  Not sure there's much of anything new to add.

[Haijinx]

/j

 

[Lines]

 

[Abysmalyxia]

2 minutes ago, justicebeliever said:

Reasonable Case #1 for keeping hasten as it is - There are higher priorities with the Development team than tinkering around with something that essential works as is.

 

Reasonable Case #2 for keeping hasten as it is - You'll piss off less of your account holders but not monkeying with something that works as-is, then you do by changing it poorly.

 

I'm not opposed or in favor of either of your solutions, but I have an allergic reaction to hyperbole, so I came up with 2 reasonable cases for keeping as is.

 

Please discuss, this isn't a vote to keep it the same, just pointing out there are pro's to not changing it.

Your first "Reasonable Case" is literally the same BS justification everyone uses to maintain the status quo: THE DEVS JUST HAVEN'T GOT THE TIME TO LOOK INTO THIS POWER THAT IMPACTS VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE GAME. That's not a reasonable justification. Saying "The Devs haven't got the time" is bad.

 

Reasonable Case #2 is similarly terrible. Maintaining broken game design because it would upset those exploiting it is just terrible.

[Abysmalyxia]

1 minute ago, ArchVileTerror said:

Anyone have the link to Steampunkette's thread on this?  I need to leave for spouse's driving lesson, but I think her thread had a lot of significant discussion on this already.  Not sure there's much of anything new to add.

I'm adding myself. I'm new.

[Coyotedancer]

Here we go again... Yet another of our apparently regularly-scheduled nerf-herder threads.

Hasten seems to be a popular target. Bio and Titan, likewise.

 

Maybe someone should make a sticky forum post with a directory linking to the older threads where this crap has been hashed over again and again and again just to save everyone time. 

[Lines]

Just now, Abysmalyxia said:

I'm adding myself. I'm new.

I like the cut of your jib.

[Abysmalyxia]

2 minutes ago, @T3h Ish said:

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.

A pool power that is placed into the build of virtually every high level player in the game is broken.

[Greycat]

Well, I used to make copypastas, but someone else can do that now.

 

[Greycat]

2 minutes ago, Abysmalyxia said:

A pool power that is placed into the build of virtually every high level player in the game is broken.

Are you a dev? Do you have access to the numbers to back this up? Especially given comments about people removing hasten in other threads because they don't need it thanks to IOs?

Edited April 9, 2020 by Greycat

[Abysmalyxia]

1 minute ago, Coyotedancer said:

Here we go again... Yet another of our apparently regularly-scheduled nerf-herder threads.

Hasten seems to be a popular target. Bio and Titan, likewise.

 

Maybe someone should make a sticky forum post with a directory linking to the older threads where this crap has been hashed over again and again and again just to save everyone time. 

Maybe people keep raging out about it because they keep being problems? Walk with me through this land of shadow where people keep gnashing their teeth and crying out for sustenance and you stand there bewildered asking yourself "Why do people keep bitching about going hungry? They were doing the exact same thing last week. It's the strangest thing. Maybe we should put up a sign saying "We know you're starving, no need to keep reminding us. Jeez".

[Yomo Kimyata]

On 4/9/2020 at 3:13 PM, Abysmalyxia said:

A pool power that is placed into the build of virtually every high level player in the game is broken.

It is far more likely that they make Hasten inherent, just like the Live devs made Health and Stamina inherent.  

 

EDIT:  I pray this doesn't happen.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Yomo Kimyata

[Abysmalyxia]

1 minute ago, Greycat said:

Are you a dev? Do you have access to the numbers to back this up?

"There are about 60k characters at level 50. About 50k of them use Hasten." <=Is this a lie? Seems legit.

[Coyotedancer]

Personally, I have no issue with Hasten. I use it on a few of my characters, but far from All... or even Most.

 

I just don't think it's as broken as all that. So... sorry. But I'm not going anywhere with you. 

 

/jranger

[Abysmalyxia]

Just now, Yomo Kimyata said:

It is far more likely that they make Hasten inherent, just like the Live devs made Health and Stamina inherent.  

Which would be a perfectly workable solution. I don't oppose keeping the current recharge times because the game is already balanced around the reality of everyone having hasten. My issue is that it creates a staggering gulf in power output between those who have it and those who do not. No pool power should have that kind of impact.

[justicebeliever]

2 minutes ago, Abysmalyxia said:

Your first "Reasonable Case" is literally the same BS justification everyone uses to maintain the status quo: THE DEVS JUST HAVEN'T GOT THE TIME TO LOOK INTO THIS POWER THAT IMPACTS VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF THE GAME. That's not a reasonable justification. Saying "The Devs haven't got the time" is bad.

It's very reasonable.  They are volunteer Dev's who get to work on the things they want to work on.  If they don't want to work on hasten, they don't need to give you, me, or anyone else justification.

 

I'd personally argue that more content is needed in the game before any more power rework.  But that's not a priority that is shared by the Dev's.  If that really sticks in my craw, then it sucks to be me.

 

To be clear - if the volunteer Dev's only want to work on the color of blue shading present in the game and build a big red ball to kick around in Steel Canyon and nothing else, that's their prerogative and if you really hate it, then your only option is to start your own server.  Fortunately that's not the dev team we have...

[Solarverse]

Starting off a thread by telling everyone else if they don't agree with you that they are wrong is by far the worst way possible that you can start a thread. You have put this thread in the grave right off the bat.

 

Personally, this is the first I have heard of there being anything wrong with Hasten. It has already been nerfed once before. Nerfing it again goes against the whole point of IO's. They nerfed it in the first place knowing that the new IO system would bring it back in line, being just under perma. Not to say it is not possible to make it perma, but to do so would require sacrificing other aspects of your build. Hasten is working as intended by the original Devs and considering that it requires a very expensive build to make it perma, I don't expect that you will garner much support for this thread.

[Haijinx]

Just now, Abysmalyxia said:

"There are about 60k characters at level 50. About 50k of them use Hasten." <=Is this a lie? Seems legit.

Seems likely to be true at the time.

 

The proportion probably remained.

 

I'm still /jranger on this suggestion though.